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Britain to introduce compulsory ID cards


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#1    pappagooch

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 02:41 PM

LONDON (AP) - The British government said Tuesday it wants to introduce compulsory identity cards to protect against illegal immigration, welfare fraud and terrorism -- though implementation is years away.

Home Secretary David Blunkett said the government would introduce the scheme after building a national database of biometric information using fingerprints, iris scans and facial recognition technology.

``An ID card scheme will help tackle the crime and serious issues facing the U.K., particularly illegal working, immigration abuse, ID fraud, terrorism and organized crime,'' Blunkett said.

The Home Office said ``using multiple identities is one of the most common practices of those involved in terrorist activity.''

But the issue of identity cards has split Prime Minister Tony Blair's government, with some ministers reportedly claiming that they are too expensive and threaten civil liberties.

Britain has not had compulsory identity cards for ordinary citizens since shortly after World War II. Such ID cards are mandatory in several Western European countries, including Belgium and Germany.

Blair has endorsed the idea in principle, but his office last week said it would take years to resolve the many complex issues surrounding the plan.

Britain is already working on upgrading passports to include chips containing biometric data, and the UK Passport Service will soon begin a six-month biometric pilot to test face, iris and fingerprint capture and recognition technology, the Home Office said. It said officials also planned to use biometric technology for driving licenses.

The information would be used to compile a national database, the Home Office added.

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#2    Blood Angel

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 07:52 PM

OH HELL NO

I REFUSE TO SEE MY COUNTRY TURN INTO NAZI GERMANY EVERYDAY.

WHATS NEXT JACKBOOTED STORMTROOPERS ON STREET FRICKING CORNERS  mad.gif  mad.gif  

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#3    Seraphina

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Posted 13 November 2003 - 08:28 PM

Last I heard (a couple of nights ago) it hadn't actually been decided if the scheme would be compulsary or not.

From a security standpoint, I think it would actually be a good idea...given the mess the country is in because of illegal immigrants, and the chances of a terrorrist attack in major british cities...

However, it depends very much on how far the govermnent wants to go with this...will is simply be an ID card, that can pass for a driver's liscence, passport, and so on (as was origonally the claim), or is it going to turn into some kind of random 'spot search' on the streets, where police can arrest anyone who isn't carrying theirs?

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#4    Cufflink

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 12:33 AM

QUOTE (Blood Angel @ Nov 13 2003, 07:52 PM)
OH HELL NO

I REFUSE TO SEE MY COUNTRY TURN INTO NAZI GERMANY EVERYDAY.

WHATS NEXT JACKBOOTED STORMTROOPERS ON STREET FRICKING CORNERS  mad.gif  mad.gif

For God's sake, Blood Angel, nobody's suggesting that. rolleyes.gif  

Try reading Seraphina's post below yours.

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#5    Blood Angel

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 03:16 PM

Well if the god damn customs and excise would do there job properly then this would not be nessacery, the way i see it, they can't be bothered to deal with it directly so they are going to take the lazy approach, and i tell you now if a police officer trys to arrest me for not carrying "ze paperz" you can be assured i'll be down for assaulting a officer, anyone can see i'm fricking british, and its stupid to have to prove that i am.

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#6    Seraphina

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 03:44 PM

It's not about proving who you are though tongue.gif Not random spot checks on the street anyway (if that was the plan, they're keeping it veeeery quiet). It'll just end up functioning in the same way as a driver's licence, a student merticulation card, a passport and so on, just rolled into one.

But yes, if the job with assylum seekers was being done right, security would be great deal less of an issue...however, I don't think national security is the primary role behind the cards, so much as convenience.

Most mainland European countries already have a similar system to this...and most of them are actually more left wing than we are tongue.gif It's not going to take away personal freedoms.

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#7    gollum

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE
anyone can see i'm fricking british, and its stupid to have to prove that i am.


It is'nt just illegal imigrants that use multiple personalities to defraud, plenty of British people do it too. thumbsup.gif

I do'nt think it would be a bad thing, the way i see it is, if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about, have you? ph34r.gif  

Edited by golam, 14 November 2003 - 04:18 PM.

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#8    Tommy

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 04:42 PM

Personally I think it is an inefficient use of taxpayerís money to fund such an unnecessary scheme.  Yes, economic migrants and asylum seekers are a huge problem here, but I donít think this is the right way to solve the problem.  disgust.gif

These i.d cards are just another system of control we could do without.  They are unnecessary and would raise more problems then they would solve.

undecided.gif




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#9    Mekorig

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE (Tommy @ Nov 17 2003, 03:42 PM)
Personally I think it is an inefficient use of taxpayerís money to fund such an unnecessary scheme.  Yes, economic migrants and asylum seekers are a huge problem here, but I donít think this is the right way to solve the problem.  disgust.gif

These i.d cards are just another system of control we could do without.  They are unnecessary and would raise more problems then they would solve.

undecided.gif

Hello, i am Mekorig, from Argentina.

Here in Argentina we have ID cards for years and there inst any form of problem whit that. Its a better form of avoiding multiple identifications cases, has i seen in the USA for example.

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#10    Benjo Koolzooie

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 04:21 PM

QUOTE (pappagooch @ Nov 13 2003, 02:41 PM)

Britain is already working on upgrading passports to include chips containing biometric data, and the UK Passport Service will soon begin a six-month biometric pilot to test face, iris and fingerprint capture and recognition technology, the Home Office said. It said officials also planned to use biometric technology for driving licenses.

Just sent an application for a passport the other day!  laugh.gif  

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#11    Fluffybunny

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 05:46 PM

Although I do not live in the UK, I would have to say it sounds like a bad idea. The US has toyed with this several times.

I could understand where some say the idea sounds good. It would be nice to be able to track people and makes sure that everyone that is in the country is there legally, and the people that do not have citizenship do not get the benefits that they have not earned. It sounds great.

Unfortunately, I am slightly paranoid when it comes to ID cards and the government as I am a history buff and have read alot about WWII and germany.

Of course the ID card concept is not intended to be able to track people unfairly, or to do random checks on street corners. Of course it is intended to reduce fraud, and lower government costs.

But it could easily be used improperly. That is a slippery slope that I would not ever want to be a part of...

Here is a scenario:

At first everything is fine, the cards help to reduce illegal immigration, lower costs of public programs around the country, it is wonderful.

A few years go by and people seem happy with the results. But what if we were to do just a few random checks around the major cities for people that might not belong here? But only in official public buildings If we could lower the costs associated with having all of these illegal folks here just a bit more, we would be so much better off...It couldn't hurt right? Yes it would be a bit of an inconvenience, but the cards have worked great so far and have been quite helpful, surely people are willing to be inconvenienced a bit to help the economy...people slowly get used to the idea of random checks over the years, it becomes part of the way things are done, it is a normal pattern. people are kind of put off about the idea of random checks, but the benefits seem to be worth the hassle...

A few years pass...Well if a few random checks in public facilities is successful, what about required checks in all public buildings?

A little is good, more should be better, right? The checks have been going on for years with no major problems, people are complacent, what the heck...mandatory checks it is! Only at government buildings thoough, nothing too obtrusive on peoles personal rights, of course...

A few years go by...

Lather, rinse, repeat...

Do you see where I am going with this?

When looking at our history we always say " how could those folks fall for that idea from the government..." because we see the history in just a few pages of text in a book, and it appears shocking.

Changes take place much slower in our real lives, and we do not have hindsight to depend on. Those gradual, incremental changes seem great at the time.  No evil intentions at all... Much like turning up the bath water warmer and warmer, what would seem unbearably hot when you first stepped in, isn't so bad if you sit in it long enough...

The best example I have is taxes.

In the US, and with local state taxes, peole generally vote to add or increase a tax to a given item. Very often emergencies come up over the years where a "temporary" tax is asked for by the government to cover some shortage caused by an emergency. Generally they are supposed to last for a few years to make the money that is needed, and then they are supposed to end.

I have yet to see one single temporary tax hike that has ever ended as it was supposed to.

It seems when we get to the end of the temporary tax hike, the local or federal government always seems to vote to switch the money made on that tax, to some other project or fund. The money gets funneled over to some social program that may or may not be needed. Voters often fall for this ploy time and time again.

The government has a tendancy to deal with money like drug addicts to with drugs, once they get started, a little less is never enough.

ID cards are kind of the same thing in my mind. It may start out a worthwhile idea, but at some point it is going to have a major impact on your life that you may not have been able to see coming.







Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#12    babyforrest

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Posted 08 December 2003 - 05:58 PM

In the summer I heard that the British government was thinking about putting trackers in every car and monitering when they broke a traffic law.  Such as if they go over the speed limit, if they cross a painted line on the road, etc.  You would get a ticket in the mail if you did something wrong, and would have to go to court if you wanted to defend yourself.  Even if this ID card idea goes through, you CANNOT under any circumstances let this idea become a reality.  The government has no right to know what we are doing and where we are at any given time.  Not to be paraniod or anything, but we cannot allow 1984 to happen.

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#13    secondhand

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Blood Angel @ Nov 14 2003, 02:16 PM)
Well if the god damn customs and excise would do there job properly then this would not be nessacery, the way i see it, they can't be bothered to deal with it directly so they are going to take the lazy approach, and i tell you now if a police officer trys to arrest me for not carrying "ze paperz" you can be assured i'll be down for assaulting a officer, anyone can see i'm fricking british, and its stupid to have to prove that i am.

QUOTE
anyone can see i'm fricking british


How's that? Do you walk round with a brolly and a bowler hat, drinking tea and starting every sentence with "I say"? You can't tell if someone's British by looking at them, this is 2003 not 1803.

Babyforrest-I can see that being true. Speed cameras are everywhere in this country, after initially being allowed years ago as accident prevention in traffic blackspots, they are now on almost every road as a method of revenue. It's even worse now the new digital cameras have been installed, in the old days if the flash went you had a 1 in 3 chance of getting away with it due to the processing costs of film. Not every camera had film in it. The traffic monitoring devices you speak of are probably on the way. This is another example of stealth tactics employed by the government, as fluffybunny explained above.

What pisses me off is the way that we're accountable for where we are and why we're there at all times. I was walking home from the pub one night and I was stopped by the police and interrogated about where I'd been, where I was going, all kinds off stuff, because there had been a couple of break-ins recently. I tried to explain that if I had broken in somehere I would probably be running, but to no avail. So the cops will  love it when they can scan my eyeball with no reason to and find out what colour my pants were on Tuesday.





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