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UK troops do the right thing


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#16    and then

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:47 PM

View Postminera, on 02 April 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Who are they going to torture if Gitmo is closed? Torture is just an evil sadistic powertrip no matter who does it to whom. It desentisized the people doing the torture to human feelings.
Even if you are 100% correct, the issue is would you under ANY circumstances condone it as necessary?  Is there some point at which you'd say yes, I think it's necessary?

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#17    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:47 PM

View Postand then, on 02 April 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Even if you are 100% correct, the issue is would you under ANY circumstances condone it as necessary?  Is there some point at which you'd say yes, I think it's necessary?

In my opinion.......

Torture should NEVER be used under ANY circumstances !

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#18    ciriuslea

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:52 PM

We can't fully unload on the Americans, just look at Manning and what he is going through to tell the world what was going on,  
I don't think too many people were too surprised, It was war at the end of the day, but the idea we have to be civilised in what has to be one of the most uncivil pastimes is kind of absurd

I tend to think that after the fact whistle blowing and what is after the fact by over a decade has to have some kind of ulterior motive.


#19    DarkHunter

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:28 AM

I know this will probably make me sound immoral but I don't really care if it does, but I don't have a single problem with torture, especially of terrorist.  I noticed there is a notion on here that all torture does is get someone to say anything you want them to.  I will admit with torture you can get that to happen but with someone trained and experienced with torture you will get just the truth and I highly doubt we have untrained inexperienced people administrating any of this.  

Then you have the point that And Then makes about moral issue of torturing a few to save the many, to me it seems rather obvious that it is better to torture them to save our citizens/soldiers lives.  I just can't understand why someone wouldn't torture them, are we honestly at the point where we are more concerned about the welfare of our enemy then we are the lives of our own people.

Lastly so many people here seem to think that we can defeat radical Islam and maintain this moral high ground which I find laughable at best and concerning at worst.  You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground, it just can not be done and to my knowledge has never been done.  If we want to win this war we must be willing to do whatever it takes, holding back just presents weakness the enemy can exploit.  It is clear that we can not get them to like us and be friends with us so we must do the next best thing and make them absolutely fear us to the point they would not dare to even think of an attack on the western world.


#20    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:46 AM

Quote

You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground

Sadly this is true...


#21    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:12 AM

View PostDarkHunter, on 03 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

I know this will probably make me sound immoral but I don't really care if it does, but I don't have a single problem with torture, especially of terrorist.  I noticed there is a notion on here that all torture does is get someone to say anything you want them to.  I will admit with torture you can get that to happen but with someone trained and experienced with torture you will get just the truth and I highly doubt we have untrained inexperienced people administrating any of this.  

Then you have the point that And Then makes about moral issue of torturing a few to save the many, to me it seems rather obvious that it is better to torture them to save our citizens/soldiers lives.  I just can't understand why someone wouldn't torture them, are we honestly at the point where we are more concerned about the welfare of our enemy then we are the lives of our own people.

Lastly so many people here seem to think that we can defeat radical Islam and maintain this moral high ground which I find laughable at best and concerning at worst.  You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground, it just can not be done and to my knowledge has never been done.  If we want to win this war we must be willing to do whatever it takes, holding back just presents weakness the enemy can exploit.  It is clear that we can not get them to like us and be friends with us so we must do the next best thing and make them absolutely fear us to the point they would not dare to even think of an attack on the western world.


What make's You think that torture is going to make any blind bit of difference to fighting radical's of any nationality, wether it is Islam radical's or otherwise ?
Torturing people will only make MORE radical's and freedom fighter's/ terrorist's (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter) in some/most (if not all) of the freedom fighter's/terrorist's eyes it is us that is the terrorist's, we are the one's that like going to war or starting war's with them or their countries
What characteristics would You say qualifies a person as a terrorist ?

You yourself could be classed as a terrorist now or in the future just for thinking a certain way or acting a certain way, or because You do not conform to what the government or whoever see's fit, it could be anything from.......

Quote

Survivalist literature (fictional books such as "Patriots" and "One Second After" are mentioned by name)
Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)
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Quoted from this topic http://www.unexplain...howtopic=244559

Would You want to be tortured ? (I highly doubt it)

I try my best to live my life by "Treating other's as I would like to be treated" and I would NOT like to be tortured, and I would NOT expect or accept anyone else being tortured either no matter what the circumstances or even if they are an enemy.......

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#22    DarkHunter

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:42 AM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 03 April 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

What make's You think that torture is going to make any blind bit of difference to fighting radical's of any nationality, wether it is Islam radical's or otherwise ?
Torturing people will only make MORE radical's and freedom fighter's/ terrorist's (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter) in some/most (if not all) of the freedom fighter's/terrorist's eyes it is us that is the terrorist's, we are the one's that like going to war or starting war's with them or their countries
What characteristics would You say qualifies a person as a terrorist ?

You yourself could be classed as a terrorist now or in the future just for thinking a certain way or acting a certain way, or because You do not conform to what the government or whoever see's fit, it could be anything from.......



Quoted from this topic http://www.unexplain...howtopic=244559

Would You want to be tortured ? (I highly doubt it)

I try my best to live my life by "Treating other's as I would like to be treated" and I would NOT like to be tortured, and I would NOT expect or accept anyone else being tortured either no matter what the circumstances or even if they are an enemy.......

The difference it makes is that we can get information from them on either their next planned attack or where important targets are located.  That alone would make a rather large difference in fighting any type of radicals.  I don't really care much who is called a terrorist or if I am a terrorist or really any labels, all I really care about is that my country is at war with radical Islam and that I want my side to win.  

I do not care about creating more terrorist/freedom fighters/anything else you want to call them, the reality is that the Middle East is not going to become friends with the west, since we can not become their friends we must do the next best thing and make them fear us to such a degree that they will not attack us again.  If that involves us torturing them then so be it, it is better they fear us and we win this war then keeping on this perpetual halfhearted war because we are afraid of losing some moral high ground.

Of course no one wants to be tortured but it doesn't change the fact that if done correctly torture is an effective method of getting information and information is very important in winning a war.  

Your way of living life is very nice and moral and you will get to keep the moral high ground and all that other moral and ethical matters but that way of life does not win wars and we are in a war.  The reality of the situation is that we are at war and trying to cling to such moral views is making the conflict that much harder to win and costing far more lives on both sides then if we didn't worry about having the moral high ground to begin with.


#23    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:54 AM

View PostDarkHunter, on 03 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

I know this will probably make me sound immoral but I don't really care if it does, but I don't have a single problem with torture, especially of terrorist.  I noticed there is a notion on here that all torture does is get someone to say anything you want them to.  I will admit with torture you can get that to happen but with someone trained and experienced with torture you will get just the truth and I highly doubt we have untrained inexperienced people administrating any of this.  

Then you have the point that And Then makes about moral issue of torturing a few to save the many, to me it seems rather obvious that it is better to torture them to save our citizens/soldiers lives.  I just can't understand why someone wouldn't torture them, are we honestly at the point where we are more concerned about the welfare of our enemy then we are the lives of our own people.

Lastly so many people here seem to think that we can defeat radical Islam and maintain this moral high ground which I find laughable at best and concerning at worst.  You can not win a war by keeping the moral high ground, it just can not be done and to my knowledge has never been done.  If we want to win this war we must be willing to do whatever it takes, holding back just presents weakness the enemy can exploit.  It is clear that we can not get them to like us and be friends with us so we must do the next best thing and make them absolutely fear us to the point they would not dare to even think of an attack on the western world.

Unfortunately, you views make you a terrorist. Luckily i have my water boarding kit right here, so if you don't mind i will hold you without trial for ten years whilst periodically torturing you


#24    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:31 AM

View PostDarkHunter, on 03 April 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:



I do not care about creating more terrorist/freedom fighters/anything else you want to call them, the reality is that the Middle East is not going to become friends with the west, since we can not become their friends we must do the next best thing and make them fear us to such a degree that they will not attack us again.  

Of course no one wants to be tortured but it doesn't change the fact that if done correctly torture is an effective method of getting information and information is very important in winning a war.  




Would You become friend's with someone that keep's on causing trouble ? No ? I did not think so...... So why would the middle east become friend's with the western countrie's ? what incentive have they had to be friendly ?


Torturing people is guaranteed to make thing's a lot worse and NOT any better

IF the government talked to people and treated people the same way they would like to be treated (with respect ?), maybe then their would be NO war's and no need to torture people for information

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#25    and then

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:18 AM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 02 April 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

In my opinion.......

Torture should NEVER be used under ANY circumstances !
So if your wife, child, parents - all you love were definitely going to be killed by a nuclear bomb and a suspect could tell you where it was - you wouldn't torture him because it is immoral to do so?  And what of HIS immorality to kill so many innocents?  I realize this may seem like an impossible scenario but i don't really think it is.  In fact I think it's quite probable to happen at some point.  If you can honestly answer yes then I think you are a person of astounding gravity and selflessness.  I'd save my family no matter what it took.  And no apologies to anyone.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#26    DarkHunter

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:31 AM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 03 April 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

Would You become friend's with someone that keep's on causing trouble ? No ? I did not think so...... So why would the middle east become friend's with the western countrie's ? what incentive have they had to be friendly ?


Torturing people is guaranteed to make thing's a lot worse and NOT any better

IF the government talked to people and treated people the same way they would like to be treated (with respect ?), maybe then their would be NO war's and no need to torture people for information

You seem to have this anti-western view like a few people on here have.  What problems have the western world been causing that the rest of the world isn't also doing at the same time.  I also feel you think it is a travesty that the western world acts in its own self interest like everyone else, but just because it is the west and powerful it suddenly becomes evil.

The main two reasons I can think of for the middle east to be friends with the west is trade and advanced technology.  Not all middle eastern countries hate the west and the few who don't tend to be far wealthier and nicer places to be then the ones that tend to fight the west.  

How would torturing the enemy make things worse for us.  The enemy is going to hate us no matter what they do and will use anything and everything to recruit new members anyway so even if we aren't torturing anyone they will claim we are anyway if it helps with recruitment so they pretty much takes away all the negative aspects of it except for losing the moral high ground which is pointless anyway.  On the other hand what we gain from torture is information that saves the lives of our troops and our civlians, the only thing we should be concerned with anyway, and save the lives of innocent civilians of the hostile country we are in, along with adding another layer of fear that will help prevent another conflict in the future.  

Your last statement has so much wrong with it, it is hard for me to pick a point to start with.  First you are not dealing with one government but multiple governments and people all with different views, beliefs, wants, morals, desires, and so on, it just doesn't work.  The vast differences will always create tension and strife because from the different views there are also only limited resources that everyone is competing for and there isn't enough to go around for everyone.  We could distribute everything evenly but I highly doubt the people living in first world countries would enjoy being downgraded to third world conditions all in the name of equality and keeping the moral high ground.  

Like I said with your view on life and everything you will be able to keep the moral high ground but it won't win a war and it isn't very practical for everyday life, whether you want to believe it or not there are people and countries out there that will do anything and everything to defeat and/or destroy you and they will use your refusal to leave the moral high ground against you and they will win.


#27    Babe Ruth

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:21 PM

View Postand then, on 03 April 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

So if your wife, child, parents - all you love were definitely going to be killed by a nuclear bomb and a suspect could tell you where it was - you wouldn't torture him because it is immoral to do so?  And what of HIS immorality to kill so many innocents?  I realize this may seem like an impossible scenario but i don't really think it is.  In fact I think it's quite probable to happen at some point.  If you can honestly answer yes then I think you are a person of astounding gravity and selflessness.  I'd save my family no matter what it took.  And no apologies to anyone.

What do you think of the christian ideals espoused by MLK?   "Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.  Darkness cannot drive out darkness"

Can you apply the WWJD dynamic to this torture situation?  I would be most interested in a response.


#28    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

View Postciriuslea, on 02 April 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Don't they torture the people they have at Gitmo....some as far as I'm aware haven't even been convicted of any crime, but its always shock horror when incidents such as the beheading of westerners a few years ago.....makes you wonder just what pushed these groups/people to want to do that in the first place ?

Maybe some squaddies in their regiment stood on IEDs?


#29    ciriuslea

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:51 AM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 03 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Maybe some squaddies in their regiment stood on IEDs?

This is true, and probably the main reason for american soldiers torturing 'the enemy', but I was looking at it from the perspective of both sides, I think one fuels the other until eventually its chaos


#30    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

View Postand then, on 03 April 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

So if your wife, child, parents - all you love were definitely going to be killed by a nuclear bomb and a suspect could tell you where it was - you wouldn't torture him because it is immoral to do so?  And what of HIS immorality to kill so many innocents?  I realize this may seem like an impossible scenario but i don't really think it is.  In fact I think it's quite probable to happen at some point.  If you can honestly answer yes then I think you are a person of astounding gravity and selflessness.  I'd save my family no matter what it took.  And no apologies to anyone.

As stated in my previous post You quoted,  I believe Torture should NEVER be used under ANY circumstances !

IF I knew of an impending attack, nuclear or otherwise, I would take step's to protect my family/people I love, by getting them out of harm's way, if at all possible.......

Two wrong's do NOT make a right, torturing someone/anyone is wrong, full stop

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