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Flouride/Water Fluoridation

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#91    psyche101

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostCoffey, on 13 November 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

So I wonder how much longer someone would live in our time if they never touched fluoride once in their life....

As JGirl said, we live longer due to many different factors...

That would depend in the surrounding conditions wouldn't it? But there is no doubt whatsoever that fluoridating the water is beneficial to your teeth. Would a person with good teeth live longer than one with bad teeth?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#92    psyche101

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

View PostChrlzs, on 13 November 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Mind?  I'm now proudly walking around in my "I said something that is now in Psyche's signature" t-shirt.. :w00t: :nw:

:lol: :tu:

It will be easy to spot you at Treetops on a Friday Afternoon then!

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#93    Cybele

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 13 November 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

That would depend in the surrounding conditions wouldn't it? But there is no doubt whatsoever that fluoridating the water is beneficial to your teeth. Would a person with good teeth live longer than one with bad teeth?

If you believe that periodontal disease can cause CVD. There definitely appears to be an association, at least.

http://www.stanford....riodontal 5.pdf
http://jada.ada.org/...uppl_2/14S.full

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#94    psyche101

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostCybele, on 13 November 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

If you believe that periodontal disease can cause CVD. There definitely appears to be an association, at least.

http://www.stanford....riodontal 5.pdf
http://jada.ada.org/...uppl_2/14S.full

And here I was looking at basic food consumption! It looks like it could be quite concerning, but it makes sense, infections do spread throughout the body.

Great links. Thanks for that. :tu:

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#95    Neognosis

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:33 AM

Quote

i believe you did make that claim. this is from your post:
"And most of us who drink fluoridated water will also live longer than any other group of human beings in the history of our species. These are just facts, not my opinion"
this statement clearly is trying to tie a longer life with drinking flouridated water,

I wrote the sentence poorly, but I did not imply a cause and effect.

The entire post is about living longer while at the same time, ingesting fluoride.

I don't think there a cause and effect relationship, other than fewer oral infections that travel to the heart and other organs.

What I am relatively SURE of, is that given the long lifespan that we have, fluoride is obviously NOT the poison that the extremists tell us it is.


#96    JGirl

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:41 AM

View PostNeognosis, on 14 November 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

I wrote the sentence poorly, but I did not imply a cause and effect.

The entire post is about living longer while at the same time, ingesting fluoride.

I don't think there a cause and effect relationship, other than fewer oral infections that travel to the heart and other organs.

What I am relatively SURE of, is that given the long lifespan that we have, fluoride is obviously NOT the poison that the extremists tell us it is.
fair enough, and thank you for clarifying your mistake.


#97    darkmoonlady

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:57 AM

On a daily basis the average person is exposed to probably thousands of tiny amounts of terrible things, radiation, pesticides, carcinogens, pollution, natural and human made toxic substances, viruses and bacteria. Given all that we are exposed to on a daily basis and the cumulative effect throughout our lives, comparatively exposure to fluoride in our water and toothpaste probably doesn't make much difference.

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#98    Little Fish

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 14 November 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

On a daily basis the average person is exposed to probably thousands of tiny amounts of terrible things, radiation, pesticides, carcinogens, pollution, natural and human made toxic substances, viruses and bacteria. Given all that we are exposed to on a daily basis and the cumulative effect throughout our lives, comparatively exposure to fluoride in our water and toothpaste probably doesn't make much difference.
the difference is that fluoridation can be stopped just by figuratively turning a tap off. it costs nothing to do, in fact there would be a financial benefit for most people in stopping it. the science is prima facie that it causes a reduction in IQ in children. even if you are not a child and only care about yourself, those children will be the ones that support you and run things in the future.

Edited by Little Fish, 14 November 2012 - 05:31 PM.


#99    Neognosis

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:15 PM

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in fact there would be a financial benefit for most people in stopping it.

Except for all the higher dental insurance premiums.

Quote

the science is prima facie that it causes a reduction in IQ in children.

IN what doses?

Yea, that's what I thought.



Let's see your peer reviewed studies, please.

Edited by Neognosis, 14 November 2012 - 06:17 PM.


#100    Cybele

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:16 PM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 14 November 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

On a daily basis the average person is exposed to probably thousands of tiny amounts of terrible things, radiation, pesticides, carcinogens, pollution, natural and human made toxic substances, viruses and bacteria. Given all that we are exposed to on a daily basis and the cumulative effect throughout our lives, comparatively exposure to fluoride in our water and toothpaste probably doesn't make much difference.

The dose makes the poison. So many people choose to ignore this fact.

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#101    Little Fish

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:43 AM

View PostCybele, on 14 November 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

The dose makes the poison. So many people choose to ignore this fact.
no that's misleading. Fluoride is bioaccumulative, the more you drink the more your body will accumulate.
its not like drinking alcohol where your body filters the alcohol away through excretion, with alcohol poisoning you would need to drink a large amount quickly such as a few bottles of whiskey in an evening.


#102    Neognosis

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 01:53 AM

Quote

no that's misleading. Fluoride is bioaccumulative, the more you drink the more your body will accumulate.

THEN WHY AREN'T WE ALL DEAD?!



Just set up another fish tank. 5 gallon tank for two guppies, for my daughter. Just realized that I have some fish in a 20 gallon planted aquarium. Tap water. Flouridated tap water. I have some fish that are over 10 years old. How is that possible, if they live in a deadly poison?

Ridiculous.

The AMA says it's safe
My doctor says it's safe
the dentist INSISTS upon it
my fish LIVE In it
we live longer now than we ever have....



Come on...

Edited by Neognosis, 15 November 2012 - 01:59 AM.


#103    Little Fish

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:10 AM

View PostNeognosis, on 14 November 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Except for all the higher dental insurance premiums.
there are studies that show non fluoridated areas have fewer dental problems, interestingly one of the studies used to promote fluoridation showed the number of dental carries was lower in fluoridated areas, what you weren't told was that in those fluoridated areas people had fewer teeth because they had rotted and were pulled.

Quote

IN what doses?
what dose are you getting? when you put it in water, on crops, in toothpaste, in processed foods, in bottled water, in baby formula, in dental treatments, you don't know what dose you are getting. you also cook with fluoridated water which will increase the concentration of fluoride as water evaporates off.

Quote

Let's see your peer reviewed studies, please.
the study I already linked is a review of 25 seperate published studies, you must have missed it.

Quote

THEN WHY AREN'T WE ALL DEAD?!
maybe you don't understand poisoning, look up the words acute and chronic. poisoning doesn't mean its effects will always kill you. the study I gave you is evidence that fluoridation damages your intelligence because your brain is poisoned. Fluoride bioaccumulates in the bone and teeth where it rots the bone over time leading to bone cancer and brittle bones and more chance of fractures because it poisons your bones.

Quote

My doctor says it's safe
doctors used to advertise cigarettes on tv. doctors used to prescribe Thalidamide and Vioxx. there are many doctors that say the opposite to your doctor. if you want to know more type "Professor Paul Connett", a 20 year epa scientist into youtube.

Edited by Little Fish, 15 November 2012 - 02:16 AM.


#104    Cybele

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:44 AM

View PostLittle Fish, on 15 November 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

no that's misleading. Fluoride is bioaccumulative, the more you drink the more your body will accumulate.
its not like drinking alcohol where your body filters the alcohol away through excretion, with alcohol poisoning you would need to drink a large amount quickly such as a few bottles of whiskey in an evening.

Bioaccumulation...wouldn't that mean a higher dose over time?

The quote "the dose makes the poison" is from Paracelsus and is a basic principle of toxicology--if oversimplified. I'd expect someone who is obsessed with the idea that government is trying to poison us to be familiar with it.

http://learn.caim.ya...ences/dose.html

This seems like a good resource to use if you want to look at toxo studies done on fluoridating agents:

http://ntpsearch.nie...ide&col=001main


http://ntpsearch.nie...rset=iso-8859-1


Edit:

Unlike a dietary non-essential trace element like lead, high fluoride
intake does not result in accumulation in the soft tissues where its toxicity becomes
manifest...fluoride does not bioaccumulate in tissues
other than those of bones and teeth...


http://www.uwf.edu/r...s/fluoride.html

Edited by Cybele, 15 November 2012 - 08:09 AM.

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#105    Little Fish

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 09:13 AM

Quote

someone who is obsessed with the idea that government is trying to poison us
that's not a constructive comment, I'm just pointing out the facts as I see them. "trying to" or inadvertently is not the discussion here.

View PostCybele, on 15 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Unlike a dietary non-essential trace element like lead, high fluoride intake does not result in accumulation in the soft tissues where its toxicity becomes manifest...fluoride does not bioaccumulate in tissues other than those of bones and teeth...

http://www.uwf.edu/r...s/fluoride.html
even your own citation says "In cases of high exposure levels or with renal deficiencies (Public Health Service, 1991) fluoride will increase in soft tissues somewhat in proportion to intake." that's a reason alone not to force it on the public.

your quote also falsely implies that Fluoride is a dietary essential trace element, it isn't.

Edited by Little Fish, 15 November 2012 - 09:17 AM.






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