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Five Evidences that Jesus Could Have Survived


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#76    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

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What version of the text are you using to suggest this?  I just whacked out my Greek version of the Bible to read the original text in its original language.  The word used is pascha, translated as Passover.  How do you read into this that the Passover thus fell on a Saturday Sabbath?  I don't see it, I just see it referred to as "Passover"

Tell me PA, how many Passovers were there in that year of Jesus' last one, the one for Jesus and the one for the other Jews? Obviously just one on the 14th of Nisan, according to John 18:28. So, the one Jesus had with his disciples was a regular supper. Oh,
but you asked what version I am reading from. Yes, the New American Version of the Bible translated from the original languages by the Catholic Biblical Association of America sponsored by the Bishops' Committee of the Confraternity of Christian doctrines with the imprimatur of Pope Paul John VI. I find this version much more trustful than the KJV. I have both.

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1- Thousands of Jews may have been killed but not all at once.  You'd be lucky if more than two or three were crucified on any one day.  And most days are not the Sabbath and therefore a crucified Jew would not need to be rushed.

As I can see, you have never read Josephus. He reports that sometimes, according to the occasion and what was going on, they would crucify about 500 a day. He adds further that at any day one would stare to the hills of Galilee and be unable to count the number of crucifieds. That's from "War of the Jews." I don't give you the page because I don't have his books here with me.

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2 - Out of respect for Jewish custom, the Romans did break legs to ensure a quick death for the Sabbath.  But two whacks (possibly more if the first whack doesn't break a kneecap) to the legs aren't necessary if someone's already dead, and a spear thrust would actually be quicker to determine if Jesus was alive or dead.

I wonder because Josephus makes reference to the leg breaking method as a Jewish doing and not Roman, and just before the Shabbat to prevent the crufixion view during the Shabbat. But the spear-piercing, Josephus never mentions. And he was a Historian famous for going down to the details even of family affairs.

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Your ridicule of this as "imagine they spear-piercing Jew after Jew" is becoming rather thin.  Clearly that's not what happened.

I know. It never happened but only in the pious forgery minds of the Fathers of the Church in the 4th Century when they canonized the NT. It is called extra-Biblical interpolation to enhance Jesus credibility as the one.

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Oh brother: Num 12:6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Num 12:7  Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. Num 12:8  With him I speak mouth to mouth,

Tell me again PA, do you think the Torah contradicts itself? I don't think so. Good! So, take a look at Exodus 33:18,20. When Moses asked to see God's glory, the Lord answered and said, "I will make all My beauty pass before you, but My face you cannot see, for no
man can see Me and sill live." So, what you read in Numbers 12:7 about Moses speaking to God "face to face" is only a way for the author of Numbers to enhance the credibility of Moses as the most important of all prophets. Moses was a man and a man cannot see God "face to face" and live. Only through a dream or vision.

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God was speaking to Aaron to point out that Moses spoke to God directly.  We can glean two pieces of information out of this:  1- God DOES have the ability to speak directly to his prophets, and 2- Numbers 12:6 is NOT a coverall statement that all prophets at all times will receive their messages only through dreams and visions (only the prophets at the time of Moses and Aaron).

The whole issue here is that you seem to have a problem with distinguishing the literal from the metaphorical. Try it at least with the intent to prevent a contradiction. I would hate to find out contradictions also in the Tanach.  

Ben


#77    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 29 December 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

The "blood and water" that poured out of the wound in Jesus side was lymphatic fluid from the pericardium being pierced.  The pericardium is the sac that surrounds the heart. When it is full of fluid the resulting pressure prevents the heart from beating.  When the Roman soldier stuck the spear in Jesus side I'm fairly certain he pierced the pericardium because the lymphatic fluid would appear like "blood and water".   Lymphatic fluid tinged with a trace of blood would be a clear light pink color.  

When they flopped Jesus on the ground the resulting whomp may have been enough to start his heart slowly beating again where he would be in a deep coma.  Then setting him a cool dark tomb for a few days may have been enough time to allow him to heal enough to get up and walk out of that tomb.  

I'm also fairly certain that when Jesus "died" up on that cross he probably had a near death experience.   The stories in the New Testament parallel stories I have read in NDE descriptions.  

Art

Hey Art, there is a better way to avoid the fantastic by concluding from other evidences. According to all the four gospels, whenever the tombstone was removed, Jesus was no longer in. IMHO, when Joseph of Arimathea took Jesus off that cross, he must have realized that Jesus was still alive. John says that he had come with Nicodemus to help him with the job. They laid Jesus in his walk-in tomb and, to prevent the curious onlookers, Joseph went for an hour or two to bring help to remove Jesus to a safer place and Nicodemus another direction to bring about 100 pounds of medication to help Joseph to mend Jesus' wounds. (John 19:38,39) This is one evidence. After 40 days Jesus started appearing to his disciples with instructions to keep the good work and organize the Sect of the Nazarenes. During those 40 days he would eat and drink just like before the crucifixion. Luke says in Acts 1:3 that the apperances were after his passion or sufferings. This is not proof even that he died; let alone that he resurrected. Then, it was obvious that if Pilate realized that he had been cheated, not only Jesus would return to the cross but also Joseph and Nicodemus would be also crucified. So, it is very probable that Jesus left the Land of Israel with Mary and Joseph. Hence of them no one ever heard of again. I am not betting anything on this, but we must admit, it is a very intelligent speculation. Otherwise, how to explain the lack of an eyewitness to the resurrection? Jesus' Apostles kept the secret until many years later when someone had to fill out in the blancs. Oh! There is just one more: The idea to remove Jesus from the tomb was not only Joseph's; Mary Magdalene had also the same plan as she revealed it herself when she went to see the sepulcher and saw that it was empty. (John 20:15) Mary wish she had come earlier to take Jesus away with her. Pity that Joseph had come first.

Ben



Edited by Ben Masada, 04 January 2013 - 09:43 PM.


#78    regeneratia

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 03 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS

Before presenting here the following evidences that Jesus could have survived the cross, I take it as my duty to clarify my point, that I am not affirming that Jesus survived the cross, but that he could have. In other words, to say that Jesus died on the cross is not 100% safe to assert. It is just one more item of faith, with a high probability to have been true.

1 - According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, "It was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back up to three or four days till death would eventually catch up on them." Jesus was removed from his cross after only a few hours.

2 - According to Mark 15:44, when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross for burial, Pilate, an expert in the crufixion of thousands of Jews, "Was deeply concerned and surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Therefore, he summoned the Centurion to verify." Considering that the Roman soldiers were highly
corrupt and that Joseph was quite a rich man in Israel, God knows the size of a possible bribe which affected the reply of the Centurion to Pilate that Jesus was already dead.

3 - According to Mark 16:1, when that Sabbath was over, which in Israel is at sunset, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to Jesus' tomb to anoint his body, when they were surprised to see that the tombstone was removed and the tomb was empty. According to Mat. 28:2, there was an earthquake, an angel came down, removed the tombstone and became equally surprised that the tomb was indeed empty. Never mind the three days and three nights of Mat. 12:40. That supposed-to-be prophecy never got fulfilled.

4 - According to John 19:39, Nicodemus, another rich man in Israel, had brought along about 100 pounds of medication to help Joseph take care of Jesus. It is highly possible that Joseph laid Jesus in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two to prevent unnecessary onlookers and returned later with his men to remove Jesus unto another safer place to mend his wounds.

5 - According to Acts 1:3, Luke said that, "After his suffering, aka, passion, Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days with many convincing proofs that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and driking with his disciples to prove he was not dead. (Luke 24:42,43) Focus that Luke said that Jesus appeared after his suffering (passion) and not after his death. And, if we consider resurrection here, the evidence goes way out of proportion because, to eat and drink after resurretion just as one used to before death, brings down the whole concept of the Pauline gospel of spiritual body. (I Cor. 15:35-44)

Ben

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this is the previous discussion, but you really would enjoy THE BIBLE FRAUD by tony bushby.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#79    docyabut2

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

Maybe I`m different, but I can believe Jesus did survived the cross, but died forty days complications of his injuries  ,as they said he then desended to heaven.


#80    Zaphod222

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:21 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 03 October 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS

Your five evidences <sic> are all bible quotes. Newsflash for you: quotes from fiction books are not "evidence".

Edited by Zaphod222, 04 February 2013 - 04:21 AM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#81    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

View Postregeneratia, on 03 February 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:


I don't know if anyone has mentioned this is the previous discussion, but you really would enjoy THE BIBLE FRAUD by tony bushby.

No, nobody has mentioned it to me. What is it about?


#82    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 03 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Maybe I`m different, but I can believe Jesus did survived the cross, but died forty days complications of his injuries  ,as they said he then desended to heaven.

Yes, you must be different because I thought Jesus had gone up and not down to heaven.

Edited by Ben Masada, 04 February 2013 - 07:29 PM.


#83    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 04 February 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:



Your five evidences <sic> are all bible quotes. Newsflash for you: quotes from fiction books are not "evidence".

You mean to imply that many Christians have lost their lives because of a fiction?


#84    WoIverine

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:36 PM

Nails driven through major arteries for extended periods of time...the loss of nearly every ounce of blood. I don't think it's possible to survive that (in human form) with the level of medicine available at that time.

Edited by WoIverine, 04 February 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#85    WoIverine

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 04 February 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Your five evidences <sic> are all bible quotes. Newsflash for you: quotes from fiction books are not "evidence".

This is interesting from you, isn't Jesus buried in Japan?


#86    regeneratia

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 February 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

No, nobody has mentioned it to me. What is it about?

Pick your poison: http://addon.100sear...The bible fraud

I had to order it from Australia. I have bought one for me and one for my sister, now deceased.

http://www.bibliotec...sp_libros_4.htm

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us."
-- Pope Leo X (1513-1521)


Edited by regeneratia, 05 February 2013 - 12:47 AM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#87    Zaphod222

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:14 AM

View PostWoIverine, on 04 February 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

This is interesting from you, isn't Jesus buried in Japan?

LOL yeah, some Aomori villagers claim that, and are making a boatload of money from gullible theists in the process.

By the way, there is another Jesus buried in China too now. So take your pick.

Edited by Zaphod222, 05 February 2013 - 04:16 AM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#88    Zaphod222

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:18 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 February 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

You mean to imply that many Christians have lost their lives because of a fiction?

Of course. Whats your point?

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#89    Zaphod222

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:19 AM

View Postregeneratia, on 03 February 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this is the previous discussion, but you really would enjoy THE BIBLE FRAUD by tony bushby.

Talk about overkill. Why would anybody need to write a whole book about disproving a fiction book?
Next thing Tony Bushby will take on... the Easter Bunny?

What a hero.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#90    Paranoid Android

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:14 AM

View Postregeneratia, on 05 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Pick your poison: http://addon.100sear...The bible fraud

I had to order it from Australia. I have bought one for me and one for my sister, now deceased.

http://www.bibliotec...sp_libros_4.htm

"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us."
-- Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

I haven't read the book, but according to this, the quote you just made from Pope Leo X is on the front cover.  Any book that would have a quote known to be fictitious on the front cover, and yet claims to hold historical fact.... well, I have a feeling it's more sensationalism than history.

Quote

Jesus married Mary Magdalene as well as two other women in his lifetime. Mary was a descendant of King Herod and Jesus was a descendant of a Celtic king named Lud. (I don't know how a Celtic managed to work his way to, and survive in, Jewish Palestine, where he'd stick out like the sorest thumb this side of Los Angeles.)

Jesus' line eventually fostered Constantine [15]. However, Jesus and a twin brother named Judas Khrestus (?!) were "conceived by rape or adultery" between a member of Herod's family and the Emperor Tiberius. [41] Some stories in the Gospels, like the Temple cleansing, are actually about Khrestus [67] and this Khrestus escaped a sentence of crucifixion imposed by Caligula in 37 by appealing to an "age-old tradition" that allowed him to have someone sub in for him [84].

Judas later went to India to learn things [90]. Jesus became a king of Britain named Cunobelinus [108] where he also joined a Druidic order [115] and acquired the name Bran the Blessed [117].

He was later captured by Rome in war [125] but escaped execution because of his connections with Roman aristocracy. He later went to Egypt to be initiated into mysteries [141] but
sometime later was stoned to death [153].

Clues for this whole story can be found in all sorts of places ranging from conveniently inaccessible manuscripts to statues in France and even in the works of Shakespeare. Unfortunately, much of what would prove this has been burned by the church, and other things have been edited or interpolated to hide all this.
Does that cover the basics of the Bible Fraud?  I read that, and at first I lol'd, and then my head exploded.  In that order.

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 05 February 2013 - 06:14 AM.

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