71 replies to this topic

[Amalthe]

scowl, on 21 November 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

So what's written in the Bible is wrong, and what you say is what really happened.

Asi already said, one has to look at Bible as something written by people who had different understanding of things than we have. They did their best effort to describe what happened in that ancient time, but they couldn't resist "humanizing" God and giving him attributes that they would give to their parents. So in order to understand and correctly read Bible, one has to look at the spirit of the things written, not at the strict word, because there are a lot of errors and omissions, if you take Bible too literally. And remember, that's exactly why Jesus rebuked contemporary teachers, that they stick to the letter of the Law, and not to the Spirit of the Law.

[scowl]

Amalthe, on 22 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Asi already said, one has to look at Bible as something written by people who had different understanding of things than we have. They did their best effort to describe what happened in that ancient time, but they couldn't resist "humanizing" God and giving him attributes that they would give to their parents.

How do you know these foolish ancient people screwed up when the wrote these things and that your modern "correction" of their writings is correct when it's based on no new information? Personally, I trust the writings of these ancient people who lived closer to the times in which they were written over the reinterpretations of modern people, especially when these reinterpretations just happen to justify how they want to live in modern times.

Quote

So in order to understand and correctly read Bible, one has to look at the spirit of the things written, not at the strict word, because there are a lot of errors and omissions, if you take Bible too literally.

How else are you to take the Bible? There is verse after verse of perfectly understandable laws and commandments, many of them repeated over and over explaining exactly what you need to do to live a holy life. Someone who thinks they're following the "spirit" of these laws by breaking them is someone who doesn't believe in the Bible and should find some other religion.

Quote

And remember, that's exactly why Jesus rebuked contemporary teachers, that they stick to the letter of the Law, and not to the Spirit of the Law.

Where is that in the Bible? And why should I listen to some guy who didn't like to follow laws?

[CRIPTIC CHAMELEON]

Lets all look at the whole picture this way if you were a God and made this world and looked down on it at this moment in time would you want to talk to us. ?

[lightly]

I believe it's because God isn't so much a "himself"  as an Everyself ..   each self is a revelation of God to me.   ..and everything.  

  I know it  might not be exactly p.c. to have a personal or alternative view of God  .. so .. excommunicate me er sumpthin?  lol.

    belief is sort of like love?  both are acts of faith ?



                                                                       Happy Thanksgiving  

[Amalthe]

scowl, on 22 November 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

How do you know these foolish ancient people screwed up when the wrote these things and that your modern "correction" of their writings is correct when it's based on no new information? Personally, I trust the writings of these ancient people who lived closer to the times in which they were written over the reinterpretations of modern people, especially when these reinterpretations just happen to justify how they want to live in modern times.

I wouldn't call it a "screw up", they did what was normal during these times. And what I am saying doesn't contradict what was written, I merely explain what the written words could mean. I only present alternative to general beliefs of atheists that it is NOT possible for God to be absolutely good and honest and not interfering with free will of men in case of Pharaoh. By this explanation, God didn't break Pharaohs will by literally hardening his heart. But at the end it's up to you to choose what to believe in.

scowl, on 22 November 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

How else are you to take the Bible? There is verse after verse of perfectly understandable laws and commandments, many of them repeated over and over explaining exactly what you need to do to live a holy life. Someone who thinks they're following the "spirit" of these laws by breaking them is someone who doesn't believe in the Bible and should find some other religion.
Where is that in the Bible? And why should I listen to some guy who didn't like to follow laws?

I'm afraid you miss a lot of aspect of New testament, and Christianity altogether, if you don't understand the antithesis of Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law. I suggest you look into wikipedia and then hopefully you will have more insight in the matter:

http://en.wikipedia....e_law#The_Bible


There are several examples from the Bible listed there too.

[and then]

I think many here have hit on the reason.  If He removes doubt then there is no need for faith.  And the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God.  Over thinking on a subject that has no other answer than for one to believe or not seems useless to me.  I am incapable of NOT believing and some here seem just as incapable of believing.  I don't condemn them for it, I just don't understand their perspective.  Maybe I'm not meant to just now.

[Rlyeh]

[scowl]

Amalthe, on 23 November 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't call it a "screw up", they did what was normal during these times.

Yes, screw up.

The Old Testament describes events in which God Himself gave clear and simple laws to the Israelites through Moses. Period! There is no interpretation involved whosoever. If you don't understand this, you do not understand the Old Testament. It is nearly legalistic in its precision.

Quote

And what I am saying doesn't contradict what was written, I merely explain what the written words could mean.

From the years I spent in Hebrew school, yes, you are contradicting what was written. There is room for interpretation where there is contradiction, but there is no general "spirit" of the law stated by God.

Quote

I only present alternative to general beliefs of atheists that it is NOT possible for God to be absolutely good and honest and not interfering with free will of men in case of Pharaoh. By this explanation, God didn't break Pharaohs will by literally hardening his heart. But at the end it's up to you to choose what to believe in.

I would chose what is written, not what people want to believe.

Quote

I'm afraid you miss a lot of aspect of New testament, and Christianity altogether, if you don't understand the antithesis of Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the Law. I suggest you look into wikipedia and then hopefully you will have more insight in the matter:

http://en.wikipedia....e_law#The_Bible


There are several examples from the Bible listed there too.

Actually there's only one example there (2 Corinthians 3:6) and the rest is a description of vague "spirit of the law" beliefs completely unsupported by references in the Bible and without any references (only guesses) as to how these new reinterpretations came about. I would recommend reading the Bible over Wikipedia.

[scowl]

CRIPTIC CHAMELEON, on 22 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Lets all look at the whole picture this way if you were a God and made this world and looked down on it at this moment in time would you want to talk to us. ?

Yes.

[Mr Right Wing]

TheProphetMark, on 18 November 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Atheist would say 'God is God, if he wanted to communicate with us he could do so easily' but they never think to question why God doesn't work that way and now I think I know why he doesn't.

When I think of God, I think of God as somebody who doesn't want to make it too obvious to people that he is in fact 'real'. Why? Well, look at it this way. If he were to tell everybody on this planet that he is real that would completely defeat the purpose of his entire game so to speak. Why? Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him. God doesn't want those who 'act' he wants those who are actually 'real decent people' to enter his kingdom. That's why it all comes down to faith.

At least that's the way I see it and I didn't realize how hard it would be to put it in words and even the paragraph above hardly make sense of the point I'm trying to bring across. I'm sure you members are intelligent, so I trust you all to understand where I'm coming from.

It's like being a parent. Your child is bad, so you tell them if you be a good boy I will buy you a Xbox 360 next month so they act on their best behavior all month only to start acting up all over again straight after receiving their Xbox. I guess the analogy makes more sense.

I'm not a religious person but I do believe in God. I'm not perfect either and yes I'm a sinner through both thoughts and actions. Nobody is perfect but God loves all of us. As for the Bible, I believe in it but I also believe that it could have possibly been re-written so I look at the Bible as 'black and white with shades of gray', gray being the truth.

God isnt outside he is within.

Next time you have a deja-vu try connecting with that level of mind which is really deep down that you remember events from. That level of mind is God.

[Mr Walker]

Mr Right Wing, on 23 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

God isnt outside he is within.

Next time you have a deja-vu try connecting with that level of mind which is really deep down that you remember events from. That level of mind is God.

In my experence god is both. He certainly "dwells' literally, within our body heart and mind, but he also "dwells" without us in the wider world This is how god can provide information which simply, is not, and cannot, be accesible to a mind that lives in an isolated organic host (our body) and has no telepathic contact with other minds past and present. Only through linking to gods mind outside of us, via gods mind within us, can we access the cosmic consciousnes and all the information that exists  therein.

[Sean93]

"Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him."

People do this anyway. My consensus is that the reason a lot people go to church or 'Believe' is so they can escape damnation - I can guarantee you that if we were let into Paradise, Heaven, whatever the **** you want to call it, regardless of our earthly deeds then there would be a **** load more murder, rape, crime etc. Like it or not, there isn't many people in the world who put others before themselves, I will say now that I care about me more than anyone else - so what, sue me.  

What is the message of the evangelicals and other street preachers or even the bible, Qur'an and Tanahk to non-believers 99% of the time? -Repent or suffer forever. The threat of damnation is planted and seeded into minds and fear takes hold of the people who believe in it - so how do we get out of it? by going to church or praising a god. Like I said above, people for the most part are only concerned about their own well being the most, unless it concerns family members etc. One example is - If you heard about someone who you never knew who had cancer or some other terminal disease, what would you feel, and I mean REALLY feel, not think you feel. Chances are, you don't feel **** all and would feel no concern. Sure it's sad, but not in a way that would make you want to cry or punch a wall. But, if you yourself were to get cancer, you would ,most likely feel concern and sadness because it's you in the noose now whereas before hand, someone else having cancer is, for the most part, of no concern.

Believe in a god, get to paradise, don't believe in a god, go to damnation - simple choice right? But then that's the thing, what sways the congregations into their choice, the hope for reward, or the love they have for their god? Judging from the human condition, I think we all know which one it is.


“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”


― Albert Einstein

Edited by Sean93, 24 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Seeker79]

Sean93, on 24 November 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

"Because if everybody knows he is real, everybody would try to change the way they act so they could have eternal life with him."

People do this anyway. My consensus is that the reason a lot people go to church or 'Believe' is so they can escape damnation - I can guarantee you that if we were let into Paradise, Heaven, whatever the **** you want to call it, regardless of our earthly deeds then there would be a **** load more murder, rape, crime etc. Like it or not, there isn't many people in the world who put others before themselves, I will say now that I care about me more than anyone else - so what, sue me.  

What is the message of the evangelicals and other street preachers or even the bible, Qur'an and Tanahk to non-believers 99% of the time? -Repent or suffer forever. The threat of damnation is planted and seeded into minds and fear takes hold of the people who believe in it - so how do we get out of it? by going to church or praising a god. Like I said above, people for the most part are only concerned about their own well being the most, unless it concerns family members etc. One example is - If you heard about someone who you never knew who had cancer or some other terminal disease, what would you feel, and I mean REALLY feel, not think you feel. Chances are, you don't feel **** all and would feel no concern. Sure it's sad, but not in a way that would make you want to cry or punch a wall. But, if you yourself were to get cancer, you would ,most likely feel concern and sadness because it's you in the noose now whereas before hand, someone else having cancer is, for the most part, of no concern.

Believe in a god, get to paradise, don't believe in a god, go to damnation - simple choice right? But then that's the thing, what sways the congregations into their choice, the hope for reward, or the love they have for their god? Judging from the human condition, I think we all know which one it is.


    “If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”


― Albert Einstein

I thin you are wholly wrong on this. People go to church, worship, and  participate in religion because it makes them feel good, not really because they are afraid not to. I think the hellfire and brimstone preaching is just more unreasonable ways of elevating their own choices more than trying to scare people into believing.. Even if on the surface that's what it looks like. In the end it's really just a narcicistic persuit to make themselves feel higher than another. There are the rare few believers that legitimately care about people and want to save them from such a fate, and there are a rare few unsophisticated people that believe but don't like themselves do they fear hell and worship to try and clean themselves of self hatred, but by and large the whole "your going to hell and I'm not" or "hear let me save you" thing is just another attempt at raising ones own social status. Pretty typical human behavior.

[Sean93]

Seeker79, on 25 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I thin you are wholly wrong on this. People go to church, worship, and  participate in religion because it makes them feel good, not really because they are afraid not to. I think the hellfire and brimstone preaching is just more unreasonable ways of elevating their own choices more than trying to scare people into believing.. Even if on the surface that's what it looks like. In the end it's really just a narcicistic persuit to make themselves feel higher than another. There are the rare few believers that legitimately care about people and want to save them from such a fate, and there are a rare few unsophisticated people that believe but don't like themselves do they fear hell and worship to try and clean themselves of self hatred, but by and large the whole "your going to hell and I'm not" or "hear let me save you" thing is just another attempt at raising ones own social status. Pretty typical human behavior.

Fair enough man, whatever floats your ark.

[itsnotoutthere]

TheProphetMark, on 18 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Interesting question that would make a lot of people think, even me. But I like to think God as a forgiving loving God. Those who do good deeds and are decent people regardless if they believe in God or not will earn a place in his kingdom. I don't see why God would throw them hell for not believing, not after everything that goes on in the World it's no wonder why people are skeptical.

And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?