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Japan,US losing patience with Chinese


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#16    Coffey

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 26 February 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

Yeah, that seems to be a deciding factor in the survival of oil rich countries. If you don't deal in U.S. $ then you're screwed.

I wasn't simply referring to war by using the term 'untouchable', by the way. Saudi Arabia has one of the worst human rights records in the World, and the U.S. puts no pressure on them to change (and even blocks it in some respects). SA have a free reign to do whatever they want, at least within their own borders.


Oh I get ya, thought you knew something i didn't and I wanted to know. lol

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#17    DarkHunter

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:46 PM

Coffey it doesn't matter that we get good from China, all of our military equipment is either produced in the US or allies of the US.  While the average consumer would lose consumer goods in the short term, they wouldn't even notice because a war time economy would more then likely be called into effect and that would include severe rationing of just about everything for the duration of the war so no one would notice the lack of consumer goods.  

As for anyone saying that China calling in our debt would cripple us, that is simply the worst argument for China winning a war that I have ever heard.  I don't get why people think just because we owe China so much that we couldn't fight them, we got the raw resources that we need and the ability to use them to produce what we need to fight a war, we don't actually need the money itself to fight a war.  China calling in our debt would cause a war between China and US.  Just think about this analogy, two people are about to get into a fight, one is clearly stronger then the other one but owes the other one a ton of money.  So at the start of the fight the one who controls the debt says I am going to make you pay me back now, do you honestly think the other guy is just going to give up because of that, or do you think he will do everything he can to win the fight so he doesn't have to pay off the debt.

I would also like to point out when the US entered into World War 2, we did not have anywhere near the money it cost to fight that war, but because we had the resources and the ability to use them we where still able to fight.  

While the article is about Japanese and Chinese tensions, any sign of problems brings the US into this because of the alliance with Japan.


#18    Orcseeker

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:45 AM

If this ever happened it would be interesting to see the laws change in the US (ie. hemp becoming legal for production).


#19    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostCoffey, on 26 February 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

They made a deal with Saudi to give protection if they only sell their oil for the dollar. (I think that's correct)

Is there any reason they would want war with Saudi Arabia?
Well, if you look at where the great majority of the 9/11 hijackers came from ... :innocent:

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#20    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:00 AM

The things that China needs to do to show it is a mature nation:

1.  Get out of Tibet.  That's right: just pull the army out.

2.  Announce that whether Taiwan wants to be part of China or not is up to the Taiwanese to be decided some time in the distant future.  In the meantime sponsor Taiwan for membership in the UN.

3.  Cut its army to a size that is non-threatening.

4.  Stop all these minor border tiffs and not claim islands it has no right to.

The effect on the world would be electric.


#21    Coffey

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:27 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 27 February 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Well, if you look at where the great majority of the 9/11 hijackers came from ... :innocent:

Well yeah, but we're not allowed to mention that...lol

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#22    Yamato

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:15 AM

View PostDarkHunter, on 26 February 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Coffey it doesn't matter that we get good from China, all of our military equipment is either produced in the US or allies of the US.  While the average consumer would lose consumer goods in the short term, they wouldn't even notice because a war time economy would more then likely be called into effect and that would include severe rationing of just about everything for the duration of the war so no one would notice the lack of consumer goods.  

As for anyone saying that China calling in our debt would cripple us, that is simply the worst argument for China winning a war that I have ever heard.  I don't get why people think just because we owe China so much that we couldn't fight them, we got the raw resources that we need and the ability to use them to produce what we need to fight a war, we don't actually need the money itself to fight a war.  China calling in our debt would cause a war between China and US.  Just think about this analogy, two people are about to get into a fight, one is clearly stronger then the other one but owes the other one a ton of money.  So at the start of the fight the one who controls the debt says I am going to make you pay me back now, do you honestly think the other guy is just going to give up because of that, or do you think he will do everything he can to win the fight so he doesn't have to pay off the debt.

I would also like to point out when the US entered into World War 2, we did not have anywhere near the money it cost to fight that war, but because we had the resources and the ability to use them we where still able to fight.  

While the article is about Japanese and Chinese tensions, any sign of problems brings the US into this because of the alliance with Japan.
It's not about calling in our debt, it's cutting off our trade that will absolutely cripple us.  Their economy will soar ahead of ours instantly in the event of a war, even one based largely on rhetoric and politics.  Our government spends mountains of money when we're not at war; they'll have no problem sacrificing the dollar during one. The economic damage China can do to us is astronomically greater than some aircraft carrier or any other military attack even conceivable, short of global thermonuclear war.

I should qualify a statement above a little bit more, since we're technically at war now with these foreign military adventures we're waging.  But nobody says that we have to keep printing and borrowing because we're still in Afghanistan.  It's for a million other reasons.  The GDP only grew 3%.  The unemployment rate is above 8%.  Granny won't get her social security check.  The sky is blue.  There's an excuse for every sucker to latch onto somewhere.

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#23    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:04 PM

Quote

1.  Get out of Tibet.  That's right: just pull the army out.

Why? Tibet is more "chinese" then it is tibeten right now. It would be like Poland giving the land back to Germany. Kind of mute at this point.


#24    OverSword

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

From the article:

Although the Japanese government did not elaborate on this point, by "ingrained" Abe did not mean Chinese behavior per se, but rather the anti-Japanese undercurrents of China's education system and the use of anti-Japanese sentiment as the basis of Chinese patriotism.


Unfortunately thanks to the atrocities perpetrated on the people of China by the Japanese in the 1930's and 40's this is practicaly a given.  I wonder if there has ever been a formal apology from the Government of Japan or thier Emperor?

When we have proof that the Chinese military is perpetrating cyber attacks on the USA shouldn't that put us in a state of war?  Shouldn't our hackers crash something of thiers as a warning?

Edited by OverSword, 27 February 2013 - 03:41 PM.


#25    OverSword

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 27 February 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Why? Tibet is more "chinese" then it is tibeten right now. It would be like Poland giving the land back to Germany. Kind of mute at this point.
Because they moved people in.  So if we invaded a smaller country and filled it full of Americans we should then be the legal owners of that territory?  Ridiculous.


#26    DarkHunter

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

View PostYamato, on 27 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:


It's not about calling in our debt, it's cutting off our trade that will absolutely cripple us.  Their economy will soar ahead of ours instantly in the event of a war, even one based largely on rhetoric and politics.  Our government spends mountains of money when we're not at war; they'll have no problem sacrificing the dollar during one. The economic damage China can do to us is astronomically greater than some aircraft carrier or any other military attack even conceivable, short of global thermonuclear war.

I should qualify a statement above a little bit more, since we're technically at war now with these foreign military adventures we're waging.  But nobody says that we have to keep printing and borrowing because we're still in Afghanistan.  It's for a million other reasons.  The GDP only grew 3%.  The unemployment rate is above 8%.  Granny won't get her social security check.  The sky is blue.  There's an excuse for every sucker to latch onto somewhere.

I am busy right now and can't give a proper responds like I would like to, but how would China's economy grow.  A war with the US would completely destroy their economy.  Besides from losing by far their biggest customer they would have to handle destroyed infrastructure so no more producing till that is fixed, captured or destroyed ports and airfields so even if they could produce they wouldn't be able to ship anything and add on to all of that a starving population in the billions and you claim their economy would grow.  That just might top China beating us in a war because we owe them money.


#27    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:04 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 February 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

3.  Cut its army to a size that is non-threatening.
Hell, everyone should do that. Including America.
If your army is bigger then Australia's, it's too big.

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I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#28    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:55 AM

Quote

Because they moved people in.  So if we invaded a smaller country and filled it full of Americans we should then be the legal owners of that territory?  Ridiculous.

And how do you suppose America was founded...oh, thats right, by conquering smaller nations and filling it with Americans :whistle:


#29    Uncle Sam

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:44 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 28 February 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

And how do you suppose America was founded...oh, thats right, by conquering smaller nations and filling it with Americans :whistle:

It was never war, it was sickness and expansion from colonies. There was never any defined borders created by Native Americans, my people in other words. The land was up for grabs unlike today where there is established and define borders. They were not Americans by the way, it was Europeans to be exact, England to be precise. The founding fathers rebelled against English Monarch to create what we see today.


View PostWearer of Hats, on 27 February 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Hell, everyone should do that. Including America.
If your army is bigger then Australia's, it's too big.

That thinking is basically saying, we can't compete so you must limit your army so we can too.

Edited by Uncle Sam, 02 March 2013 - 01:46 AM.

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#30    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:19 PM

that was sarcasm actually.
Mind you, your awesome and inspiring army routinely gets trounced in wargames by us hicks in Oz :P

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.




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