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The Woman clothed with the Sun...

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#16    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:21 AM

View Postmarkprice, on 24 April 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:


Off the top of my head I would say she is obviously linked to the old pagan wisdom schools through astrology (twelve stars) and alchemy (sun/moon) while the dragon representing the profane had already wiped out a third of the gods. God has to act quick or the child of knowledge would be dead. She retreats to the woods where she is able to build up and gather knowledge for the future.

Posted ImagePosted Image


Had something like that in mind.

How would she be linked to the old pagan wisom schools, How do they identify her, what are the symbols surrounding her?

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#17    MasterFlint

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:31 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 25 April 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

So your a catholic, well I'm Jesuite , and JEPD is proven tripe.

Also in the 70s the teaching about Mary being a prostitute was wound back and changed..the church admitted they got it wrong.

However just like the Catholic Church got that wrong so was this explanation you just gave because its clearly states she gives birth to the one who will rule the world with a rod of Iron, and this is also clear to be the returning lord and somebody other than Jesus, in fact he is spoken of by Jesus saying " he will not teach in parables but speak plainly of the Father"  

I can understand you wish to put forward the official position, but what makes you think it's infallible if even somebody  as important as marry can be painted a prostitute?

This prophesy about the woman with 12 stars is clear to be about somebody external to Marry, Just as the one who rules with a rod or Iron, the spirit of truth, the return of Messiah is clear about somebody not Jesus.

If its so please explain how Jesus rules with a rod of Iron and has one foot on Land and the other on the Sea?

Yeah you sound like a Jesuit!  haha!  Im sure your one of those catholics who don't find anything wrong with the previous popes drinking and eating pagan offerings when they toured Africa and such right?  You sound like that "type" of catholic...

Im sorry, but your just flat out wrong, your attempting to explain the meaning of a passage of scripture that you CLEARLY don't believe in because you don't even believe that Jesus is the Messiah or that he is going to rule the world upon his return.  Therefore your making up your own meanings using your own disbelief in the place of the approved doctrine of the church.

Whether you go with the Catholic interpretation that the Woman is Mary with the 12 stars or the Protestant stance that it's the Church/body of Christ itself....  your interpretation is wrong, you are who will be deceived by the anti-Christ and the beast, your the one looking for a New Messiah to be born that isn't Jesus.  You are not a Christian, you are not a Catholic.  You are a heretic, a blasphemer, and a small anti-Christ in yourself from what your opinions are.....  The sad thing about most catholics is that they don't read their bibles, therefore they come up with Ludacris interpretations of scripture...  I had fully read my bible, the Apocrypha, the nag hamadi library, sefer yitzhira, Zohar, rabbinical seder, the book of enoch, all the lost non canonical scriptures I could find, the recently new released book of the three wise men, and an assortment of other religious texts.....all before becoming Catholic in the first place.   Jesus is the one born who will come again and rule.

What Mary are you talking about?  Magdalene?  Not much is known about her in the first place, and she isn't that important of a figure scripturally speaking.  I know she was thought of as a prostitute, but that wasn't based on scriptural fact instead on assumption and people filling in gaps.  The Revelation Quote we are discussing is not in question, it's clear and plain as day if your looking at it through clear eyes...


#18    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:33 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 25 April 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

You have misinterpreted this wrong.  

Go back to Joseph and his life to find the answer.

The stars above her head are her children.

This woman will have 12 children.

The symbology of the woman is not limited to only one particular reading. In fact it has a number of different readings.

The symbology of the woman with the stars over her head is indeed a symbol of Israel as can be found in Genesis 37:9–11, but that woman for example is not pregnant as is the case for Revelation 12. This introduction of a new element shifts the meaning of the symbol slightly, it is the nation of Israel that will bring forth the Messiah. It is she who will give birth to the child. But it is also a symbol for Mary, who was the actual mother of the Messiah. She was Jewish and the literal prophetic imagery fell to her as the mother of Jesus.

Both ideas express themselves concurrently within the symbols. No-one I think, denies that the child born is Jesus, so the symbol must include all the variants (Israel and Mary)

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#19    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:43 AM

The reason we established about John the Baptist being the spirit of Elijah is because the official position by these so called theologians is the very same about Jesus in his return..not the very same Jesus..yet that what you must have to believe, what if somebody who looked like him said he was! Oh dear what a situation...

Rather its the one who is in the spirit of Elijah, eg: John the Baptist..and the one who is in the spirit of Jesus.

So you probably expect the very same Jesus even though he says its somebody else and " he will not look like me" , Jesus talking about himself in the third person?

Therefore I assumed  some already knew the woman with 12 stars is not Mary..that this whole prophecy is referred to the Returning Lord! but I was wrong.

Keep looking to the clouds, expect the dead to rise out of there graves , the moon to be darkened and so on...interestingly they know and recognise this is the age of the Returning Lord...the parable of the fig tree confirms this , perhaps just for a minute the Prophecy in Luke 17 24 is true? Is it any wonder this man would be rejected just as Jesus was? Perhaps even if he walked up to the Vatican itself and said he was him would they believe? Of course they would say " give us a miracle then!" What faith they would have, the demand for a miracle, did that convince the Pharisee ? Even Simon ( judas father rejected Jesus after he was healed)

Perhaps the modern church is in the same vain as the Pharisees in his day? Surely not? I would have thought the same for Jesus except he was killed by the very people he came for and is still rejected to this day by the Jews because they don't recognise John the Baptist was the Returning Elijah, John didn't help his cause by saying he wasn't I might add.

One things for sure no matter if the modern world united with the returning lord or not God will fulfil his promise and lead all into the truth. And perhaps that's why only 144 000 will be sealed?

Some scripture of interest :

"For in that day many will come to me saying, " Lord have we not cast out demons and done many wonders in your name," and I will turn to them and say depart from me you workers of inequity"

That's a sad prophecy, one I hope doesn't happen, when those who didn't recognise the returning lord actually worked against him..expecting just like the Jews for the actual return of Elijah and not John the Baptist..The actual return of the very same Jesus as well.


It's sad the way history repeats. Those who don't recognise the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them.






#20    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

View PostMasterFlint, on 25 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Lol.  You REALLY need a theology lesson...  I don't know what in the world your going on about with bones being reconstructed???   What in the world are you talking about?  The Catholics teach from a story handed down from the Apostles and written down around 300 AD, that Mary died, but then was resurrected and taken up into Heaven to be with Jesus, once in Heaven she was crowned Queen of Heaven.  Mary is the new Eve because she gave birth to Jesus Christ who was the new Sinless Man, the new Adam, through him were all the sins attoned for, giving life to mankind again.  Since she is Jesus's mother and ALL of our Spiritual Mother, and gave birth to a child without sin, she is the New Eve!  Jesus is the new Adam.

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel, they carry the names of Joseph and his brothers, but it isn't a carry over from Genesis...

And John The Baptist was Elijah coming before Christ, part of Elijah's spirit was given to John, just like part of his spirit was given to his pupil, Elisha...

Where in the bible does it speak of Marys death and that she is the Queen of Heaven?

If we are to accept that based on stories perpetuated by some people in the church, then shouldn't we also accept that jesus supposedly had a family with Mary Magdelene, since those stories also were around at the same time. Stories may make tradition and culture but they are not the basis of belief. For belief one has to rely on the bible and nowhere there does it say that Mary was any of these things.

Mary is not the New Eve....

Through a series of horrible theological errors, she is already the fourth member of the Trinity. The Father, Holy Spirit and Christ/Mary. For all intents and purposes, she is the one directing things in the cosmic dialog. Now, as elegant as the fantasy is, it is still a fantasy. Christ's (the Trinity's) words still ring true: "Woman, what has this got to do with you?'

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#21    MasterFlint

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

The Revelations verses come from/back up Psalm 2, which clearly identifies the coming King as God's Son, which Jesus is established as being.

Psalm 2:

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

This too I think sums it up enough that Jesus is the Christ and one spoken of in Revelations, He is the first and the last....

Revelations Chapter 1:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Revelations Chapter 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And who is our Lord and God's Christ?  Jesus of Nazareth!!!!!!


#22    MasterFlint

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:03 AM

Mary is the new Eve.  I don't believe she was born without sin as the catholic church teaches, I'll be the first to admit that the catholic church has gone off the deep end when it comes to nearly all of their Mary stuff they teach...  But the one thing they got right is the Queen of Heaven and New Eve.  Which even protestants should be able to fathom her as the new Eve, it's not something you have to write into anything, she is the Mother of Chirst, she is the spiritual Mother of all those who are born again, just like all older women of the church are.....but because she was the one who carried and brought forth our Christ it makes her the new Eve since he is the New Adam.  It's common sense people.  It's not like the Catholic's church crazy teaching that Mary is the co-redemptrix or anything like that!

And all of Mary's apparitions over the Millenia attest to her being raptured into Heaven...


#23    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:08 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 25 April 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well I just finished my coffee

So we have established John the Baptist is Elijah ?

There is no doubt in you John the Baptist is Elijah?

Matthew 11:11-15

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So the answe is yes John the Baptist was the Elijah.... but he was not Elijah.

The Elijah.... to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

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#24    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:10 AM

View Postjuliagezm1, on 25 April 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'd be interested to have the date setting explained.Posted Image

Explained in what way?

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-C. S. Lewis


#25    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 25 April 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

The reason we established about John the Baptist being the spirit of Elijah is because the official position by these so called theologians is the very same about Jesus in his return..not the very same Jesus..yet that what you must have to believe, what if somebody who looked like him said he was! Oh dear what a situation...

Rather its the one who is in the spirit of Elijah, eg: John the Baptist..and the one who is in the spirit of Jesus.

So you probably expect the very same Jesus even though he says its somebody else and " he will not look like me" , Jesus talking about himself in the third person?

Therefore I assumed  some already knew the woman with 12 stars is not Mary..that this whole prophecy is referred to the Returning Lord! but I was wrong.

Keep looking to the clouds, expect the dead to rise out of there graves , the moon to be darkened and so on...interestingly they know and recognise this is the age of the Returning Lord...the parable of the fig tree confirms this , perhaps just for a minute the Prophecy in Luke 17 24 is true? Is it any wonder this man would be rejected just as Jesus was? Perhaps even if he walked up to the Vatican itself and said he was him would they believe? Of course they would say " give us a miracle then!" What faith they would have, the demand for a miracle, did that convince the Pharisee ? Even Simon ( judas father rejected Jesus after he was healed)

Perhaps the modern church is in the same vain as the Pharisees in his day? Surely not? I would have thought the same for Jesus except he was killed by the very people he came for and is still rejected to this day by the Jews because they don't recognise John the Baptist was the Returning Elijah, John didn't help his cause by saying he wasn't I might add.

One things for sure no matter if the modern world united with the returning lord or not God will fulfil his promise and lead all into the truth. And perhaps that's why only 144 000 will be sealed?

Some scripture of interest :

"For in that day many will come to me saying, " Lord have we not cast out demons and done many wonders in your name," and I will turn to them and say depart from me you workers of inequity"

That's a sad prophecy, one I hope doesn't happen, when those who didn't recognise the returning lord actually worked against him..expecting just like the Jews for the actual return of Elijah and not John the Baptist..The actual return of the very same Jesus as well.


It's sad the way history repeats. Those who don't recognise the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them.

We are expecting the same Jesus because he actually did say that he would return. Elijah had that said about him. It became a tradition based on secondary information rather than the personal words of the subject (Elijah). We do not have that problem with Jesus. He said of himself... I am the cloud Rider!

The very term "Cloud Rider", is a statement of Deity. Specifically of one particular Deity, Yahweh himself.

Isaiah 19:1 (ESV)

19 An oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, YAHWEH is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them

Deuteronomy 33:26 (ESV)

26  “There is none like EL, O Jeshurun,
who rides through the heavens to your help,
through the skies in his majesty.

Psalm 68:33 (ESV)

33  to Him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens;
behold, he sends out his voice, his mighty voice

Psalm 104:3 (ESV)

3  He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;
he makes the clouds his chariot;
he rides on the wings of the wind;

Daniel 7:9-14

9“As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12(The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The langauage is not symbolic, the Cloud Rider is none other than God himself!

Notice especially Daniel where the ancient of Days (God) is seated on his throne when "one like a son of man" (human being) comes into his presence. He is given dominion over all men and the WORSHIP him!

So to whom exactly did God give his authority, his power and his dominion?

So who is the Cloud Rider?

Matthew 26:64-68

And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”

The answer hasn't changed it seems... the answer is still God.
So who am I to expect when the time comes? Another man proclaiming himself to be God or the Cloud Rider? I will trust in the word of God.

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#26    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:57 AM

This you don't get either...not trying to be offensive, actually I love you guys for your passion and the fact your faith is so strong!

But the sun is God

The sea is fallen mankind

The cloud: well that's what's formed when the sun hits the sea and that water is to a large extent purified into clouds.

Jesus coming on the clouds means; coming with purified mankind..the 144 000

And:
As Jesus said: Luke 17
So as lightning flashes from one part under heaven to the other part...so the son of man shal be


This lightning is the symbol of electricity, telecommunications ..yes we are in this very age.

And:

The parable of the fig tree?

When the tree begins to bear fruit he is at the very gates!

The fig tree is Isreal, the return of the Jewish people reformed Isreal.

And:

Be watchful?

Are you? Sounds like nobody wants to be a new wine skin ..yet this was the lords commandment!

And:

The dead will rise? The resurrection ?

Jesus said leave the dead to bury the dead, follow me!
Those who received Jesus did in fact receive spiritual resurrection.

Like I said, I love your devotion to God, this alone will save you, but if your not watchful as lord Jesus warned (except if for some cloud type miracle where the returning Lord flys around on a cloud saying "here I am!" ) you may miss this event. You may not be in the first resurrection just like those who didn't receive Our Lord Jesus.

This lord does not just come for Christians, or Jews, this Lord is coming for all religions! he will offer a new truth and teaching more advanced than Jesus , Jesus had to talk in parables because that's all those around him could understand, imagine if he tried to teach Eistiens theory or reletivity ? About gravity? Even how lightning is produced? These people of Jesus age were somewhat primitive, do we crucify people in this day and age?  So this new guy will talk more plainly, prolbably more scientifically , and about real truths in the spirit world...with all the teaching from Jesus and other prophets do you understand the spirit world?  No! if you think yes your kidding yourself..none of us knows what we don't know until we have learnt it! So this Adam will do as Jesus said, " when the spirit of truth comes he lead you all into the light" "Every eye will see him" (thanks to modern technology) yet  he will be rejected and suffer much and yes only 144000 will receive him by all accounts. He will have Jesus supporting him though, just as John had Elijah but was not the actual Elijah...Jesus is a mission not a man.

This is a message of love to you no matter what religion you are,  to remind you of what may be about to occure, weather you can receive is your choice..who I am to all this is irrelevant.




#27    Jor-el

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostMasterFlint, on 25 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Mary is the new Eve.  I don't believe she was born without sin as the catholic church teaches, I'll be the first to admit that the catholic church has gone off the deep end when it comes to nearly all of their Mary stuff they teach...  But the one thing they got right is the Queen of Heaven and New Eve.  Which even protestants should be able to fathom her as the new Eve, it's not something you have to write into anything, she is the Mother of Chirst, she is the spiritual Mother of all those who are born again, just like all older women of the church are.....but because she was the one who carried and brought forth our Christ it makes her the new Eve since he is the New Adam.  It's common sense people.  It's not like the Catholic's church crazy teaching that Mary is the co-redemptrix or anything like that!

And all of Mary's apparitions over the Millenia attest to her being raptured into Heaven...
The reason that Jesus is called the 2nd Adam is because a metaphor was being applied. A comparison between to things, He is not literally the 2nd Adam, he is merely the figure that succeeded where Adam failed.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49

45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

As such we cannot extend the metaphor to include Mary. She is not a part of the metaphor and was merely a physical conduit for the completion of the prophetic message of Christ. Thus she is not the 2nd Eve, She is not the Queen of Heaven. I think she is horrified that so many christians over the years have turned her into something she never was nor was ever meant to be. I say is because she is alive in christ, just as all who die are alive in christ. There is no biblical evidence that she was any of the things that the Catholic Church today tries to portray with her image.

There is no evidence she was raptured to Heaven and biblically that does not jive with what we know. Mary's apparitions and especially her messages demonstrate the spirit behind the message and it isn't God. Her messages do not glorify God, or Christ. Her messages glorify herself... that in itself is proof that it is a lie or a fraud.

The Catholic church does not officially call her co-redemptrix, but in every other respect, treat her in exactly that way. They pray to her rather than christ, they sacrifice to her. It is her image they carry with them in their cars, on chains and lockets. When they need a miracle or a cure, it is to her they go to. I know, I live in Portugal. They neither remeber Christ or his words, they see him either as a baby on christmas eve or a man nailed to a cross at easter. Christ does not enter their lives.

Yes there are exceptions, but they are few and far between a multitude of others.

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#28    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

View PostJor-el, on 25 April 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:



Matthew 11:11-15

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So the answe is yes John the Baptist was the Elijah.... but he was not Elijah.


The Elijah.... to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

So doesn't that verse 11 trouble you or do people skim read?

THE LEAST IN HEAVEN

Is it possible something went wrong? That this prophet made some fatal error? I'm not bashing John, rather interested to know if anybody has a ear here.

Given that the Jews still await Elijah before they could accept the teachings of Jesus..even to this day! . Is it possible one made such a critical error that affected the other?

Is there anywhere else that Jesus says "So whoever hears this and does it...and ..."



But look at Luke7 concerning John first.

Now rember he is in prison at this time, has already been told " this is my son in whom I'm well pleased"

Yet still feels the need to ask if Jesus is the messiah. I'm not twisting anything here..

Jesus and John the Baptist

18 John’s disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19 he sent them to the Lord to ask, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”

21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

24 After John’s messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
    who will prepare your way before you.’[b]
28 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”






Edited by Irrelevant, 25 April 2013 - 02:59 PM.


#29    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:42 PM

This post is in reference to the least in heaven ..

Matthew 5:19
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Did John make a mistake then?

Perhaps John was ment to follow Jesus? And do as he was ment to in "making his paths straight, and testifying to everybody Jesus was the messiah, since here now just before he's beheaded he still can't say he is Elijah, and is even questioning Jesus if he is the one or shall we expect another..perhaps there's a major problem!

Since Jesus being the messiah to the Jews required Elijah to come first, did John say he was not him? Did John in fact denie he was Elijah leaving Jesus to say who he was, causing a major credibility problem for Jesus? A problem that still exists to this day.

If you believe in predestination you may say this is all Gods  plan, was it really? Don't humans have any responsibility too.

John1:21
And they said to him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not. Are you the prophet? And his answer was, I am not.

This shows John had a identity problem, he didn't know himself the he was Elijah or even a prophet.

Edited by Irrelevant, 25 April 2013 - 02:51 PM.


#30    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:42 PM

View PostJor-el, on 25 April 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Matthew 11:11-15

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So the answe is yes John the Baptist was the Elijah.... but he was not Elijah.

The Elijah.... to make ready a people prepared for the Lord
Hi Jor-el,

I once thought of it as a reincarnation example, not just referring "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" because the article "the" is a "definite" one [not generalized like "a" or "an"]. Could it be a scholarly mistranslation?

God bless.

"Also, if they (Gospels) were written early (before 70 AD), this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them."





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