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Göbekli Tepe-10 000 BC


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#271    TheSearcher

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 21 February 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Ok point well received and all i can say at this point is more digs to be done and more sites to be rediscovered.Though i have a very strong feeling that the antiquity of the IVC will be pushed further back and the connections between the two sites will be established further down the line.

Since Mehrgarh is a precursor of the IVC, that would already be an impossibility, in my opinion

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#272    Abramelin

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 February 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

cormac just answer me then this question, you dont see Hittites and Akkadian empire as civilization? Because of origin of their writting system.

I had a similar but short discussion (in another thread about Göbekli Tepe) about exactly the same, L:

http://www.unexplain...35#entry4484491

And read onwards.

As you will know in Europe we had the Funnel Beaker Culture, the Bell Beaker Culture, Linear Pottery culture, Tumulus Culture, and so on, but none of them were considered to be 'civilizations' even though they were wide spread.

I think a 'culture' is about noting but people creating similar buildings, graves and artifacts, a 'civilization' has to do with organization, recording information, commerce and hierarchical structure.


#273    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 21 February 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Since Mehrgarh is a precursor of the IVC, that would already be an impossibility, in my opinion
IVC is a continuation of Mehrgarh rather. Mehrgarh is only one of the sites under the IVC banner.


#274    TheSearcher

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 February 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

IVC is a continuation of Mehrgarh rather. Mehrgarh is only one of the sites under the IVC banner.

Sorry but that is just semantics and does by no means change the facts.

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#275    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 February 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I think a 'culture' is about noting but people creating similar buildings, graves and artifacts, a 'civilization' has to do with organization, recording information, commerce and hierarchical structure.

As I remember and since Harsh86 mention them Harappans didnt have hierarchical structure yet we called them civilization.
As I understand crucial thing here is writting system. If one have it -its civilization. No writting system no civilization.
Also there are so called cultures which show MUCH of hierarchical structure and organization yet they are not consider to be civilization. Again probably because of writting system.

Edited by the L, 25 February 2013 - 08:51 PM.

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#276    TheSearcher

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:21 PM

No, it's not only writing, it's a combination of several criteria.And the Indus Valley Civilisation did have a hierarchical structure, as both the Harappa site and the  Mohenjo-Daro site have differentiated living quarters, flat-roofed brick houses,  and administrative / religious centers.

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#277    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 25 February 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

No, it's not only writing, it's a combination of several criteria.And the Indus Valley Civilisation did have a hierarchical structure, as both the Harappa site and the  Mohenjo-Daro site have differentiated living quarters, flat-roofed brick houses,  and administrative / religious centers.

I read on several places that IVC didnt have hierarchy. Can you support that claim with some link, quote...

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#278    The_Spartan

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:37 PM

View Postthe L, on 25 February 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I read on several places that IVC didnt have hierarchy. Can you support that claim with some link, quote...

People do not go around without a structured government or hierarchy and simply build settlements or towns with proper planning.
here is a link for you to ponder

link

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#279    Abramelin

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:55 PM

It appears to me that the words 'civilization' and 'culture' are nothing but what you want it to be.

It's a meaningless discussion.



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Edited by Abramelin, 25 February 2013 - 10:04 PM.


#280    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 February 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

It's a meaningless discussion.

Not to me.

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#281    Abramelin

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:03 PM

View Postthe L, on 25 February 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Not to me.

Yeah, I got that.

But in the end it is nothing but people bickering about the meaning of some word.


#282    TheSearcher

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:15 PM

View Postthe L, on 25 February 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I read on several places that IVC didnt have hierarchy. Can you support that claim with some link, quote...

See Spartan's link below, it's about as good as the one I could use. However I read this in a book, "The Ancient Indus:
Urbanism, Economy, and Society" by Rita P. Wright (Cambridge University Press, 26 Oct 2009)

View PostThe_Spartan, on 25 February 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

People do not go around without a structured government or hierarchy and simply build settlements or towns with proper planning.
here is a link for you to ponder

link

Nice link mate and very informative.

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#283    Swede

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 February 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Yeah, I got that.

But in the end it is nothing but people bickering about the meaning of some word.

Abe: Actually the distinction between the two terms is of importance.

While cultural anthropologists have engaged in numerous philosophical and theoretical debates over the definition of "culture", the following is a reasonable distillation.

Culture - Learned and transmitted behavioral and technological information conducive to a groups adaptation to, and survival in, a given environmental setting.

Thus, comparatively small (or notably extended) groups share some degree of commonly transmitted knowledge. This does not necessarily imply higher levels of social organization and structure.

Civilization, on the other hand, incorporates (as noted by Searcher) a number of additional elements. Again, definitions can have some degree of variability. The following reference may provide some insight:

http://www.wmich.edu...vilization.html

.


#284    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 25 February 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Sorry but that is just semantics and does by no means change the facts.
It does..your statements suggests that Mehrgarh was a separate identity from the IVC which is not the case.


#285    Abramelin

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 06:45 AM

View Postthe L, on 25 February 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

As I remember and since Harsh86 mention them Harappans didnt have hierarchical structure yet we called them civilization.
As I understand crucial thing here is writting system. If one have it -its civilization. No writting system no civilization.
Also there are so called cultures which show MUCH of hierarchical structure and organization yet they are not consider to be civilization. Again probably because of writting system.

I think writing is a way to "record information"...





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