Ten Steps To Close Down an Open Society

[Phaeton80]

The Ten Main Steps To Close Down an Open Society (Ten steps to Fascism):

1 Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

After we were hit on September 11 2001, we were in a state of national shock. Less than six weeks later, on October 26 2001, the USA Patriot Act was passed by a Congress that had little chance to debate it; many said that they scarcely had time to read it. Now we have ISIS and Russia (again)

2 Create a gulag

Once you have got everyone scared, the next step is to create a prison system outside the rule of law (as Bush put it, he wanted the American detention centre at Guantánamo Bay to be situated in legal "outer space") - where torture takes place.

3 Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.

When leaders who seek what I call a "fascist shift" want to close down an open society, they send paramilitary groups of scary young men out to terrorise citizens. Ferguson anyone?

4 Set up an internal surveillance system

In Mussolini's Italy, in Nazi Germany, in communist East Germany, in communist China - in every closed society - secret police spy on ordinary people and encourage neighbours to spy on neighbours. The Stasi needed to keep only a minority of East Germans under surveillance to convince a majority that they themselves were being watched. Thank you Edward Snowden.

5 Harass citizens' groups

The fifth thing you do is related to step four - you infiltrate and harass citizens' groups. It can be trivial: a church in Pasadena, whose minister preached that Jesus was in favour of peace, found itself being investigated by the Internal Revenue Service, while churches that got Republicans out to vote, which is equally illegal under US tax law, have been left alone.

6 Engage in arbitrary detention and release

This scares people. It is a kind of cat-and-mouse game. Nicholas D Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn, the investigative reporters who wrote China Wakes: the Struggle for the Soul of a Rising Power, describe pro-democracy activists in China, such as Wei Jingsheng, being arrested and released many times. In a closing or closed society there is a "list" of dissidents and opposition leaders: you are targeted in this way once you are on the list, and it is hard to get off the list.

7 Target key individuals

Threaten civil servants, artists and academics with job loss if they don't toe the line. Mussolini went after the rectors of state universities who did not conform to the fascist line; so did Joseph Goebbels, who purged academics who were not pro-Nazi; so did Chile's Augusto Pinochet; so does the Chinese communist Politburo in punishing pro-democracy students and professors.

8 Control the press

Italy in the 1920s, Germany in the 30s, East Germany in the 50s, Czechoslovakia in the 60s, the Latin American dictatorships in the 70s, China in the 80s and 90s - all dictatorships and would-be dictators target newspapers and journalists. They threaten and harass them in more open societies that they are seeking to close, and they arrest them and worse in societies that have been closed already.

9 Dissent equals treason

Cast dissent as "treason" and criticism as "espionage'. Every closing society does this, just as it elaborates laws that increasingly criminalise certain kinds of speech and expand the definition of "spy" and "traitor".

10 Suspend the rule of law

The John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 gave the president new powers over the national guard. This means that in a national emergency - which the president now has enhanced powers to declare - he can send Michigan's militia to enforce a state of emergency that he has declared in Oregon, over the objections of the state's governor and its citizens.

See: Naomi Wolf - The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/ten-steps-to-close-down-a_b_46695.html

[spud the mackem]

10 steps is rubbish ,you only need one, send in Alex Fergusson ...end of story.

[RavenHawk]

1 Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

Doesn’t that ignore the fact that those enemies exist? It is very naïve to think they don’t exist. Don’t you think there are people and forces inside and out that do nothing but plan the destruction of this nation? Ever since it became the Great Experiment, we have had a target on our backs. The reasons vary from jealousy to annoyance. Russia, China, and Islam are the major external players and internally are the Progressives. I’ll let you figure out the why.

2 Create a gulag

Americans are not afraid of Guantánamo. Places like this are to house our enemies that have been caught on the battlefield. Yes, there is caution to be observed here when Americans are caught on the battlefield. But under Bush, these prisons were not meant to house the general American public. Now, under Obama, he could easily convert them. Release our enemies (like he has been doing) to make room for his political enemies. So how come he hasn’t closed them like he promised? He still has plans for them.

3 Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.

Isn’t that ACORN and SEIU? And also isn’t this the basis for Obama’s NCSF? Why do you think he’s been gutting the ranks of the military? To replace our military who’s oath is to defend this nation from all enemies foreign *AND* domestic with those that just owe him allegiance. The thing is is that when I took the Oath, I don’t recall an expiration date.

4 Set up an internal surveillance system

The concept may have begun in prior Administrations because it was new technology and the wisdom to use it properly was not yet established but it was brought to fruition by the current Administration directing the NSA to begin operations with building data centers to collect this data. And until Snowden had blown the whistle, we would have remained unaware. Although, I don’t think for long. My brother had been offered the directorship of the Utah site and he turned them down. It would have eventually come out.

5 Harass citizens' groups

Like what the IRS was doing? And what these 16,000 new IRS agents will do?

6 Engage in arbitrary detention and release

I’m not aware of this happening yet, so this will get a pass. But it would be the next step after #3 becomes established.

7 Target key individuals

You see attacks on Adrian Peterson and Bill Cosby. Who here old enough can remember when their dad took a switch to your backside and left welts? It’s because we did something wrong and we needed to learn that we did something wrong. You can’t calmly reason with children. There is nothing wrong with this, it’s just that the PC crowd is artfully being wielded by the people that want to control us. Bill Cosby is being harassed with women coming forward claiming he raped them. I’m not saying he is innocent, but this is being used to attack him because he comes out stating that the problem with the Black community is because of the deterioration of the Black family, not because of racism which this Administration wants to keep division between the people. We all have skeletons in our closet and anyone can at anytime use that knowledge against you. Not for right or wrong but to control you. It was said that J Edgar Hoover had such files on everyone.

8 Control the press

For the most part, that is happening but it is willing self enslavement. Where are the days when the press held the feet of the politicians to the fire?

9 Dissent equals treason

Isn’t this what Janet Napolitano was doing at DHS? Singling out vets, gun owners, and Bible believers as a threat to this nation? If someone speaks out against the Administration’s policies, we are just racists.

10 Suspend the rule of law

Hasn’t Obama done this already by doing what he wants, ignoring the Constitution? This has been Obama’s plan from the very beginning.

Naomi Wolf concludes: “"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... is the definition of tyranny," wrote James Madison. We still have the choice to stop going down this road; we can stand our ground and fight for our nation, and take up the banner the founders asked us to carry.”

These steps are being followed right now and it’s up to us to stop them. Unless you support or are a part of this administration. Or unless you are too blind to see this happening.

[Saitung]

You see attacks on Adrian Peterson and Bill Cosby. Who here old enough can remember when their dad took a switch to your backside and left welts? It's because we did something wrong and we needed to learn that we did something wrong. You can't calmly reason with children. There is nothing wrong with this, it's just that the PC crowd is artfully being wielded by the people that want to control us. Bill Cosby is being harassed with women coming forward claiming he raped them. I'm not saying he is innocent, but this is being used to attack him because he comes out stating that the problem with the Black community is because of the deterioration of the Black family, not because of racism which this Administration wants to keep division between the people. We all have skeletons in our closet and anyone can at anytime use that knowledge against you. Not for right or wrong but to control you. It was said that J Edgar Hoover had such files on everyone.

I can hardly believe how on-point you are, especially about number 7. The sad truth as I see and believe it, is that Americans have been conditioned for far too long. We cannot hope to recognize, let alone fight this Subtle Incursion. We had been conditioned to be led and not ask any questions as long as someone who looks like us in leadership is telling us what we want to hear. As I like to tell folks, America really LOST the Revolutionary War, we just didn't realize it. A successful government must have a dumb populace.

[Yamato]

I can hardly believe how on-point you are, especially about number 7. The sad truth as I see and believe it, is that Americans have been conditioned for far too long. We cannot hope to recognize, let alone fight this Subtle Incursion. We had been conditioned to be led and not ask any questions as long as someone who looks like us in leadership is telling us what we want to hear. As I like to tell folks, America really LOST the Revolutionary War, we just didn't realize it. A successful government must have a dumb populace.

He wants to have a successful govt, though. He goes from being on point in #7 to running straight into the arms of said government and its policies. It's just rhetoric. But if it's the right rhetoric, then we must have actions that go along with it.

[Phaeton80]

Doesn't that ignore the fact that those enemies exist? It is very naïve to think they don't exist. Don't you think there are people and forces inside and out that do nothing but plan the destruction of this nation? Ever since it became the Great Experiment, we have had a target on our backs. The reasons vary from jealousy to annoyance. Russia, China, and Islam are the major external players and internally are the Progressives. I'll let you figure out the why.

What would be 'naive' is to imply that internal and external threats (ie. 'fear') are not used as a driver to further political aspirations. Lets take your fear- born blind hate of Islam for instance. People like yourself would rationalize loss of liberty for 'safety', cheer further 'interventions' and accept any increase in military spending (regardless o/t fact 'the Homeland' is in disrepair on countless aspects). In these instances taxpayers money will flow to the military industrial complex instead of being spend in favor of said taxpayer (infrastructure, creation of jobs, education etc). I'll let you figure out the why.

Americans are not afraid of Guantánamo. Places like this are to house our enemies that have been caught on the battlefield. Yes, there is caution to be observed here when Americans are caught on the battlefield. But under Bush, these prisons were not meant to house the general American public. Now, under Obama, he could easily convert them. Release our enemies (like he has been doing) to make room for his political enemies. So how come he hasn't closed them like he promised? He still has plans for them.

They are not affraid because they have been conditioned to see those held in Guantanamo as 'not deserving the rights international law dictates' - the unalienable rights they see themselves as deserving. A schism is created; 'them' and 'us'. They are 'outsiders', 'enemies of the People'. This is an essential point. It is a sliding slope. It starts with removing the rights of 'foreign enemy compatants'. Then 'foreign' will fall away, and the definition of 'enemy compatants' broadened. Suddenly, your neighbour gets arrested and thrown in jail without due process, and nothing is heared from him ever again. The two words that would have you accept that without any further questions would be: 'terrorist threat'. From the people who braught you "Youre either with us, or youre against us". And if you are 'against us', you belong to 'them'. And if you belong to them, you can be institutionalized or killed without any judicial process what so ever.

Isn't that ACORN and SEIU? And also isn't this the basis for Obama's NCSF? Why do you think he's been gutting the ranks of the military? To replace our military who's oath is to defend this nation from all enemies foreign *AND* domestic with those that just owe him allegiance. The thing is is that when I took the Oath, I don't recall an expiration date.

No. That would be private miltary companies - 'security contractors' - like Academi (formerly known as Blackwater and Xe Services). The legal and ethical isses that arise from such uncontrollable elements should be utterly obvious to all who have any idea what the implications are of this phenomenon.

The concept may have begun in prior Administrations because it was new technology and the wisdom to use it properly was not yet established but it was brought to fruition by the current Administration directing the NSA to begin operations with building data centers to collect this data. And until Snowden had blown the whistle, we would have remained unaware. Although, I don't think for long. My brother had been offered the directorship of the Utah site and he turned them down. It would have eventually come out.

'The wisdom the use it was not yet properly established'.. Erm yeah, I would call that a wee bit naive. Apologies.

Like what the IRS was doing? And what these 16,000 new IRS agents will do?

Thats one aspect, yes. Others are infiltration and monitoring of, for example, American anti- war activist groups by elements that are supposed to 'track potential terrorist threats' (like Cifa).

I'm not aware of this happening yet, so this will get a pass. But it would be the next step after #3 becomes established.

It occurs to me - when reacting to any OP in such a extensive and decisive manner - you might want to actually read the complete article referred to in said OP. Im quite sure you are aware of the developments in, say, the TSA and their 'Terrorist watch list'?

"Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that," asked the airline employee.." Anti-war marcher? Potential terrorist. Support the constitution? Potential terrorist. History shows that the categories of "enemy of the people" tend to expand ever deeper into civil life.

You see attacks on Adrian Peterson and Bill Cosby. Who here old enough can remember when their dad took a switch to your backside and left welts? It's because we did something wrong and we needed to learn that we did something wrong. You can't calmly reason with children. There is nothing wrong with this, it's just that the PC crowd is artfully being wielded by the people that want to control us. Bill Cosby is being harassed with women coming forward claiming he raped them. I'm not saying he is innocent, but this is being used to attack him because he comes out stating that the problem with the Black community is because of the deterioration of the Black family, not because of racism which this Administration wants to keep division between the people. We all have skeletons in our closet and anyone can at anytime use that knowledge against you. Not for right or wrong but to control you. It was said that J Edgar Hoover had such files on everyone.

"Bush supporters in state legislatures in several states put pressure on regents at state universities to penalise or fire academics who have been critical of the administration. As for civil servants, the Bush administration has derailed the career of one military lawyer who spoke up for fair trials for detainees, while an administration official publicly intimidated the law firms that represent detainees pro bono by threatening to call for their major corporate clients to boycott them.

Elsewhere, a CIA contract worker who said in a closed blog that "waterboarding is torture" was stripped of the security clearance she needed in order to do her job. Most recently, the administration purged eight US attorneys for what looks like insufficient political loyalty. When Goebbels purged the civil service in April 1933, attorneys were "coordinated" too, a step that eased the way of the increasingly brutal laws to follow."

For the most part, that is happening but it is willing self enslavement. Where are the days when the press held the feet of the politicians to the fire?

Oh poppycock. Reporters who dont report 'between the lines' will get harassed, threatened and prosecuted. Another utterly obvious red flag that should be unacceptable / acted against in all possible shapes.

Isn't this what Janet Napolitano was doing at DHS? Singling out vets, gun owners, and Bible believers as a threat to this nation? If someone speaks out against the Administration's policies, we are just racists.

Yes, that is indeed a good example.

Hasn't Obama done this already by doing what he wants, ignoring the Constitution? This has been Obama's plan from the very beginning.

No, its wasnt 'Obama's plan from the very beginning'. Please dont be so naive in supposing all these insidious developments come from a single man, or single administration. Fact is, the Presidential administration is just there to 'administrate' the policy set by those who fund 'the talking heads'.. The people who will sell their aspirations to the general public at large. This is why promises made during 'election' are broken time after time. The true ruling body are internationalists who care not what happens with the United States or its citizens.

Naomi Wolf concludes: ""The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... is the definition of tyranny," wrote James Madison. We still have the choice to stop going down this road; we can stand our ground and fight for our nation, and take up the banner the founders asked us to carry."

These steps are being followed right now and it's up to us to stop them. Unless you support or are a part of this administration. Or unless you are too blind to see this happening.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Phaeton80

[Babe Ruth]

Doesn't that ignore the fact that those enemies exist? It is very naïve to think they don't exist. Don't you think there are people and forces inside and out that do nothing but plan the destruction of this nation? Ever since it became the Great Experiment, we have had a target on our backs. The reasons vary from jealousy to annoyance. Russia, China, and Islam are the major external players and internally are the Progressives. I'll let you figure out the why.

Americans are not afraid of Guantánamo. Places like this are to house our enemies that have been caught on the battlefield. Yes, there is caution to be observed here when Americans are caught on the battlefield. But under Bush, these prisons were not meant to house the general American public. Now, under Obama, he could easily convert them. Release our enemies (like he has been doing) to make room for his political enemies. So how come he hasn't closed them like he promised? He still has plans for them.

Isn't that ACORN and SEIU? And also isn't this the basis for Obama's NCSF? Why do you think he's been gutting the ranks of the military? To replace our military who's oath is to defend this nation from all enemies foreign *AND* domestic with those that just owe him allegiance. The thing is is that when I took the Oath, I don't recall an expiration date.

The concept may have begun in prior Administrations because it was new technology and the wisdom to use it properly was not yet established but it was brought to fruition by the current Administration directing the NSA to begin operations with building data centers to collect this data. And until Snowden had blown the whistle, we would have remained unaware. Although, I don't think for long. My brother had been offered the directorship of the Utah site and he turned them down. It would have eventually come out.

Like what the IRS was doing? And what these 16,000 new IRS agents will do?

I'm not aware of this happening yet, so this will get a pass. But it would be the next step after #3 becomes established.

You see attacks on Adrian Peterson and Bill Cosby. Who here old enough can remember when their dad took a switch to your backside and left welts? It's because we did something wrong and we needed to learn that we did something wrong. You can't calmly reason with children. There is nothing wrong with this, it's just that the PC crowd is artfully being wielded by the people that want to control us. Bill Cosby is being harassed with women coming forward claiming he raped them. I'm not saying he is innocent, but this is being used to attack him because he comes out stating that the problem with the Black community is because of the deterioration of the Black family, not because of racism which this Administration wants to keep division between the people. We all have skeletons in our closet and anyone can at anytime use that knowledge against you. Not for right or wrong but to control you. It was said that J Edgar Hoover had such files on everyone.

For the most part, that is happening but it is willing self enslavement. Where are the days when the press held the feet of the politicians to the fire?

Isn't this what Janet Napolitano was doing at DHS? Singling out vets, gun owners, and Bible believers as a threat to this nation? If someone speaks out against the Administration's policies, we are just racists.

Hasn't Obama done this already by doing what he wants, ignoring the Constitution? This has been Obama's plan from the very beginning.

Naomi Wolf concludes: ""The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands ... is the definition of tyranny," wrote James Madison. We still have the choice to stop going down this road; we can stand our ground and fight for our nation, and take up the banner the founders asked us to carry."

These steps are being followed right now and it's up to us to stop them. Unless you support or are a part of this administration. Or unless you are too blind to see this happening.

You're not aware of arbitrary detention?

That sounds like you are not aware of the amendment attached to 2012 NDAA bill. It effectively suspends Habeas Corpus, which is addressed in the Constitution.

Arbitrary detention has been in practice in Gitmo for all these years.

Arbitrary detention of muslims was most fashionable right after 11 September.

And the general direction described by Naomi was really begun before Obama. He is just another figurehead, like his predecessors.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Babe Ruth

[No Censorship]

Raven Hawk mentions Bill Cosby. Cosby has no right to give lectures and sermons to poor young Black men. Who is *he* to judge *them*? Judgmental rhetoric from hypocrites is no solution. Address the cold hard realities of the economy and education. Black Americans have no monopoly on problems that are caused by these factors. Look at the environments in which inner city children are raised. There are fewer jobs for young men. Most of the public schools don't prepare them for life. Let's look at practical and realistic solutions for *our* citizens' woes. We're all Americans, so don't be fooled by the tribalism of ethnicity, gender, income, etc.. Improvements in the lives of one group inevitably lead to improvements in the lives of all groups.

There's no reason that we can't make and sell products like we did in the past. Factories provided good jobs to individuals. There was a time when Detroit was a center of economic activity. We can return to those days if we decide to do so.

We also should support charter schools for disadvantaged and impoverished students, who want to learn and succeed, across the country, not just in inner cities. Most graduating Black students aren't standup comedians who have the good fortune of being helped by mentors in the entertainment field. That's why a good education is vital to someone who truly wishes to improve her/his life. Sadly, well-intentioned students are trapped in poor schools with poor teachers.

There's no doubt that families are paramount and primary in the improvement and turnaround of the alarming statistics found in Black neighborhoods. Strong families will help. A revolution in the economy and education will help them stay intact because all three pillars are absolutely necessary to improve the situation. Castigating high school boys for their baggy pants really doesn't improve their lives as much as revolutionizing the American Dream will.

[Raptor Witness]

I spoke to an attorney the other day, who helped me win a precedent setting case back before 911, which led to a class action lawsuit.

As we reminisced, I found that he's the second attorney to tell me that Homeland Security has stripped the rights of any citizen they choose. His exact words to me were, "you have no rights."

According to this observation, the Republic is dead; rigor-mortis has set in, and the smell of dirty laundry fills the halls of Congress. Behind every door we find a dead body, with evidence of suicide.

In other words, "Death to America," was a prayer that was answered.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Raptor Witness

[Babe Ruth]

I spoke to an attorney the other day, who helped me win a precedent setting case back before 911, which led to a class action lawsuit.

As we reminisced, I found that he's the second attorney to tell me that Homeland Security has stripped the rights of any citizen they choose. His exact words to me were, "you have no rights."

According to this observation, the Republic is dead; rigor-mortis has set in, and the smell of dirty laundry fills the halls of Congress. Behind every door we find a dead body, with evidence of suicide.

In other words, "Death to America," was a prayer that was answered.

Was it an answered prayer, or the logical result of a government acting way beyond its constitutional authority, in violation of moral standards?

[Raptor Witness]

Based on my premise, the Congress, President, and the Supreme Court have become the de facto agents of Al-Qaeda, here at home.

Al Qaeda is not just a political enemy, but a theological enemy.

So the constitutional framework has failed, despite its genius.

Why is this?

If we can answer that question, then there might be a prayer to remove the dead bodies.

[Phaeton80]

So the constitutional framework has failed, despite its genius.

Why is this?

Because no framework is impervious to a public demanding its demise.

"Here, take my Liberty.. just guarantee my Safety!"

[Phaeton80]

Thats is to say, the public is so very engineered at this point.. they do not care about these subjects. They know almost every detail about their favourite sportsteam, they know next to nothing concerning the national, let alone international political situation.

An ignorant public is so very easy to manipulate, so very easy to fool. Indeed, 'like putty in your hands'. So much so, that you can have them begging to relinquish their rights, just to keep them safe from a projected - and often synthesized - boogeyman.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Phaeton80

[Phaeton80]

Heres an interesting vdo..

[Babe Ruth]

Because no framework is impervious to a public demanding its demise.

"Here, take my Liberty.. just guarantee my Safety!"

You certainly have a point there, but in fact, the US Constitution is under attack, has been under attack, from its domestic enemies, those inside the government.

Our elected officials passed the Patriot Act, not the public. Elected officials passed the NDAA amendment, not the public. There was no public cry for those legislative acts or any of the other illegitimate ones passed by Congress.

SCOTUS blessed off on these egregious acts, NOT the public. SCOTUS has seen to it that the sophistry of corporate personhood is considered legitimate, NOT the public.

Constitutional governance has failed because of humans inside the Beltway who write and then pass legislation that violates the document and its principles, though it's true that the average member of the public is grossly uninformed, and oblivious to what is going on.

[Phaeton80]

You certainly have a point there, but in fact, the US Constitution is under attack, has been under attack, from its domestic enemies, those inside the government.

Our elected officials passed the Patriot Act, not the public. Elected officials passed the NDAA amendment, not the public. There was no public cry for those legislative acts or any of the other illegitimate ones passed by Congress.

SCOTUS blessed off on these egregious acts, NOT the public. SCOTUS has seen to it that the sophistry of corporate personhood is considered legitimate, NOT the public.

Constitutional governance has failed because of humans inside the Beltway who write and then pass legislation that violates the document and its principles, though it's true that the average member of the public is grossly uninformed, and oblivious to what is going on.

Well yes, but there wasnt any significant cry against it either. Would any attack have any chance of success if the People were wise to it; aware? I would certainly think not. The only reason this attack was possible to organize & foment is for the public - as a whole - to be ignorant to it. We allowed it. This is the point I was trying to convey.

[Phaeton80]

Cant help myself in posting the following, a true work of Art for all Im concerned. Oh and do play this at maximum level, let the neighbours in on it.. so to say. ;-)

[Babe Ruth]

Well yes, but there wasnt any significant cry against it either. Would any attack have any chance of success if the People were wise to it; aware? I would certainly think not. The only reason this attack was possible to organize & foment is for the public - as a whole - to be ignorant to it. We allowed it. This is the point I was trying to convey.

Call me cynical, but I no longer believe that the electorate in the US in any way at all controls the federal government.

For example, the mid-term elections during Bush's tenure were frequently described as mini referenda about the War On Terror. For the most part voters elected candidates who criticized the war and promised they would work to end it.

It quickly became apparent that electing one-third of the Congress to work against the war would have no effect at all.

So I do understand your point, and completely agree if you're trying to say we have the government we deserve over here, but in truth it is a bit more complicated than that. There are several egregious examples in which THROUGH LEGISLATION our rights have been taken away.

For the most part the federal government is utterly out of control in terms of being responsive to the wishes of the electorate.

It is very responsive, quite compliant, to the wishes of the special interests that actually control the politicians.

[Phaeton80]

I appreciate that. I must remain though; when enough people are aware of these concerted actions against them (us), this could all be over in 24 hrs. Figuratively speaking. I wholeheartedly believe this.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Phaeton80

[Raptor Witness]

Most of the genius minds who gave U.S. Freedom, were skeptical would be able to "keep it," as Ben Franklin would reportedly say.

It wasn't foreign powers they seemed to fear the most, but the equilavent of Judas.

[Leonardo]

You certainly have a point there, but in fact, the US Constitution is under attack, has been under attack, from its domestic enemies, those inside the government.

The basic premise of this thread hinges around the theory that govt is leading the people down this road - but is that true?

Or is the govt simply following the will of the people and doing so because they wish to keep their jobs (get elected)?

I'm not saying the latter is not a failure by govt or those who wish to govern, but I do think the propensity of the people to stick all the blame on others is a salient point here. The people are not blameless in the demise of America - if that is indeed what is happening.

[Babe Ruth]

I agree Leonardo, the people are not blameless. We are ignorant of the duties of citizenship, whether by design or by happenstance, and for the most part oblivious to the maneuverings of special interest.

May I say that it's a bipartisan effort, pun intended, that we have this situation today. Yes we are lazy and uninformed and poor citizens, but it is equally true that overt actions have been taken to attack the notion of constitutional governance, and those steps have been taken by those holding office.

[Phaeton80]

The basic premise of this thread hinges around the theory that govt is leading the people down this road - but is that true?

Or is the govt simply following the will of the people and doing so because they wish to keep their jobs (get elected)?

I'm not saying the latter is not a failure by govt or those who wish to govern, but I do think the propensity of the people to stick all the blame on others is a salient point here. The people are not blameless in the demise of America - if that is indeed what is happening.

I dont fully agree. The basic premise of this thread (imo) is to establish a certain pattern, leading to a certain effect in society. Its conclusion would, or should be, that we as The People have allowed and still allow those who define our political landscape to undertake what they are obviously fomenting (against us). It would further generally imply unnatural persons (ie. corporations) are gaining, or have gained, the upper hand over the natural variant (which in turn would grant certain families - or bloodlines - a superiorly advantageous position in regards to the rest of the Occidental, even international community.

[SHaYap]

the population will always lean towards the promises of wealth and security ~ and the big Corps signs those checks ~

[RavenHawk]

I was starting to reply to you paragraph by paragraph but was noticing a pattern so I decided to scrap a long winded reply for this one. I’m also preoccupied on some other things. I’d have to say that over-all I agree with your thoughts but I recognize that you are putting forth probably the worst case scenario. You are irrationally paranoid. I’m paranoid but you make me look like a Zen Master.

Internal and external threats have been used as a driver to further political aspirations for every Administration. That doesn’t change the fact that such threats exist and always will. They should never be ignored. The Declaration of Independence muses on that proposition. What are our limits of sufferable endurance before we are considered chumps?

Understanding core values of Islam is not fear-born. Vigilance is the word you are having problems searching for. I can’t believe you are regurgitating that crap even now with ISIS massacring non-believers. You’re easily paranoid of our government yet ignorant of the realities of Islam. FYI, Islam *IS* your worst case scenario.

I am all for foreign intervention. In today’s *small* world, a tiny dictator in an out-of-the-way corner of the world that sneers at us, threatens our national security. And as usual, a good defense is a strong offense. It’s always best to take on the enemy in their backyard rather than waiting to respond to them in ours. Some say that we’re not the World’s policeman. I have two ways that I can respond to that. The first way is that I would be fine with that, but then we shouldn’t be the World’s aid worker either. No foreign aid of any kind for any reason and close the border and deport as many criminals as we can. The other way is to look at the stability of the World right now. It is on the verge of flying apart and all because we are retreating from that World’s policeman role. It has been American Hegemony that had kept the relative peace. Do you see Russia stepping up? China? NATO? Islam? The seeds that are being planted now will assure WWIII. As prior to WWI the rivalry between the powers will throw us into conflict. It always happens.

It’s that strong military that assures our freedoms and liberties. That is what this government is supposed to do (infringe on our enemies and not our people). The Constitution does not apply to other nations or our enemies. Our defense budget should be at least 25% of the overall budget. Before Obama came into office, the budget was at 23%. Now we will have problems defending ourselves even if attacked on our shores.

The Homeland is in dire disrepair but it’s not because of the military industrial complex. The MIC is an integral part of our society. Why we are in disrepair is because of the lack of leadership at the very top and the slide into Socialism and dependency (the cracking of our Constitutional Foundation). The government should not be in the business of providing jobs or education. Its concern is to PROMOTE the General Welfare. That is the upkeep of Infrastructure (roads, bridges, rail, communications, border, etc.) and as the Romans did, the military can be used as labor. Through leadership we should be creating a national goal (vision) like what NASA was in the 60’s, perhaps a new vitalized NASA for a Moon, Mars, and beyond project? If the government does just those two things, then Private Enterprise will take care of the jobs and education and that would be more money in the treasury. This will return wealth and prestige to America.

So now this brings us to your paranoia. The military is not the problem. The military is being gutted by this Administration as effectively as prior dictatorships had purged their militaries. Every Administration has used strong-arm tactics to get its way, but this Administration is different. Its focus isn’t to build a strong America but to destroy the Constitution. And to get away with appeasing our enemies in hopes that they will ignore our weakness. That never works. There are two reasons to study Constitutional Law. One is to protect it and the other is to destroy it. With what we have seen so far, I would say that the current Administration is trying real hard to destroy it. This has certainly been the most divisive Presidency we’ve had and whether or not that is his plan, it is not good for the Nation.

You’re afraid of a police state taking over (most patriots are) but until now, there was nothing on the grandeur of some futuristic sci-fi utopia. In an open society, there will always be a Mudd. In our current society, it is the exception and not the rule. But we are inching closer toward your fears but not because of past Administrations, but that it has been hijacked and morphed into a totalitarian apparatus. It is vital that a government be able to, in a restrained manner cross lines of personal liberty for reasonable security. And it should be left to the tolerance of the public to determine that level. The government shouldn’t think that it can do this without proper oversight.

A Blackwater won’t be used against the American people, even Blackwater will be gutted. It’ll be groups like ACORN and the SEIU which will give way to a NCSF that owes its loyalty to the Administration (not the nation). The ex-military and ex-Blackwater (who are usually ex-military) gave an oath to the Nation just as I did and I don’t recall there ever being an expiration date to that oath. That makes us all threats to the state – all possible terrorists. But that is our duty to “throw off such government”. The way to stop your worst case scenario is to get a Republican into the Whitehouse and let them rebuild our military. But don’t stop there; just continue to vote out the incumbent in every office in every cycle. Keep the politicians off balance. Between an informed voter and our military based in a solid foundation is what keeps tyrants internally and externally from taking over this nation. That is well worth the cost.

Then the new President needs to exhibit leadership and re-instill a sense of pride into the people. Let them know that they “can and do build it” and they can keep the fruits of their labor. The government can’t force them to be their brother’s keeper. That should come from desire and compassion and not coercion. Then dole and welfare can be cut from the Budget. Welfare should be an abhorrent word to all but the widow and orphan. Return liberty to the Nation. We do that then the powerplays in Washington will just be the usual games, restricted only to that segment of our culture.

Do these things and you will thwart tyranny.