401 replies to this topic

[Yamato]

libstaK, on 02 January 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

There is a huge and obvious difference between DELIBERATELY flamebaiting when you know you are offending with racist and discriminatory behaviour and whether or not a person is clothed fully, partially or not at all - NOTHING is an invitation to rape, stop trying to reason a way to blame the victim.

We need to stop pandering to the notion that the water is muddy on this issue, it simply is not.

I am glad you added the last bit - yes there are dangerous and evil people out there and people are victims of these types.  That is all they are, they are not the cause of the behaviour.


So you are suggesting that the absence of adult supervision or parental boundaries are placing juveniles in the position of "provoking" attacks.  The young should be safe and free to explore boundaries without being sexualised in the minds of adults and susceptible to being victims of sick minds.

We need to deal with the sick minds and stop focusing on the innocent victims and all the ways they seem in some people's minds to "contribute" to what happened.  Boundaries need to be set against the perpetrators not against the victims.  It's so easy to turn it around and I think that is why it has remained such a huge stumbling block but it is a part of what is wrong here to turn it on the victim, it is a huge piece of the elephant in the room.

That speaks to the sickness inside the perpetrators, to seek to violate what is pure and innocent in their eyes, to dominate and submit what is good into a condition of desolation and horror, it is about power over those perceived as the weak.  It also speaks to the weakness of the perpetrators that they seek those that are powerless to fight back, these are cowards who would never face someone capable of meeting them on equal ground.

There is NOTHING in those statistics that point to the juveniles and youths being anything but victims of monsters.

I'm not denying they're anything but victims of monsters.  I'm also not denying that crime can be prevented.

How can you understand flamebaiting when a racist element is attached, or a nationalist element, or a political element, but not a sexual element?   But not bonebaiting.   Why does sex become the exception?   How can you determine deliberation in my clothing while professing that I can't do the same?   Maybe I borrowed that shirt from a friend...excuse me, but how do you know I'm as guilty as you just made me sound?   How can you understand someone physically assaulting me for wearing something I have every right to wear just because YOU don't approve of it?   Double standard?

[Yamato]

The young should be safe and free to explore boundaries without being sexualised in the minds of adults and susceptible to being victims of sick minds.

Then whose minds should the young be sexualized in when they're outwardly expressing their sexuality?    Their fellow young?   Is that any deterrence to the crime?  That's most likely whose going to rape them.  Some other underage kid who absolutely should be responsible for his own behavior and actions but UNFORTUNATELY IS NOT.   It is dangerous beyond reckless to have this presumptuous idealism of what young girls should be able to do without suffering the consequences when that isn't realistic at all looking at the data.   Admitting something isn't advocating it; that's where I think you misunderstand my position here.

[Betterfly]

I'm not exactly new to UM. I've been in the background as a non-member for the last year and a half, and while there are some things that boiled my blood, I never found them reason enough to make an account and leave my two-cents until today. How the Hades do people-- men for the most part-- think its okay to point fingers at the victim?! And why do we let these pervs back out after a few years in the joint? Whatever happened to my good man Ham's justice system, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? If rapists got it as bad as their victims, if they were humiliated and hurt like that, maybe there would be less of it. Maybe.
Thanks for listening to my rant. Here's to hoping this doesn't become my new habit.

[Hasina]

This is like blaming cupcakes for looking delicious for making someone fat, then making all cupcakes look like muffins.

[Yamato]

I firmly believe I should have every right to walk the streets of West Jerusalem in my King-Richard-the-Lionheart finest, or maybe some golden-trimmed Knight Templar.    And before the fast and loose accusations come rolling in that I was somehow asking for it, excuse me, but that is an act of civil disobedience (arguably even that) to put the law to the test to see just how free that city's dress code really is.  How dare anyone even vaguely imply that I was "flamebaiting" and deserved to get assaulted by some intolerant violent criminal idiot?

[Yamato]

Hasina, on 02 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

This is like blaming cupcakes for looking delicious for making someone fat, then making all cupcakes look like muffins.

And that is like rationalizing the mind of a rapist to be ridiculous when it was somehow supposed to be sensible.   It IS ridiculous...as cupcakes and muffins, and worse.

[Hasina]

Yamato, on 02 January 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

And that is like rationalizing the mind of a rapist to be ridiculous when it was somehow supposed to be sensible.   It IS ridiculous...as cupcakes and muffins, and worse.

Exactly. No two ways around it, it's a ridiculous 'solution' because it's just not gonna work. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and control, this is Criminology 101 pretty much.

[Yamato]

Hasina, on 02 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Exactly. No two ways around it, it's a ridiculous 'solution' because it's just not gonna work. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and control, this is Criminology 101 pretty much.

Sexual power and control.

Do we need an example that's pure sex?   Okay let's take prostitution.   Are we going to deny that the way prostitutes dress somehow isn't provocative and doesn't invite male attention to initiate sexual activity?  These aren't even rapists, these are just Johns.   But the presumption remains ludicrous that dress doesn't affect the way people think just because it's purposefully entangled in gender-based stereotype or incidentally has a sexual component attached to it.   Of course the clothing will work; it works every night in every city.

[Hasina]

Yamato, on 02 January 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sexual power and control.

Do we need an example that's pure sex?   Okay let's take prostitution.   Are we going to deny that the way prostitutes dress somehow isn't provocative and doesn't invite male attention to initiate sexual activity?  These aren't even rapists, these are just Johns.   But the presumption remains ludicrous that dress doesn't affect the way people think just because it's purposefully entangled in gender-based stereotype or incidentally has a sexual component attached to it.   Of course the clothing will work; it works every night in every city.

Yes, certain clothing can lead to certain thinking. But no clothing, in my mind, leads to forcible penetration just cause, oh my, you're wearing it.

[ouija ouija]

Arbenol68, on 02 January 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

What does it mean 'to dress provocatively'? Sounds like a phrase a man made up. Maybe people need to be more vocal telling men not to rape, rather than telling women how to dress.

Yes, it probably was a man that made that phrase up and that's why women should take note! Your last sentence expresses a good idea, obviously, but living our day-to-day lives we have to be more realistic if we want to stay safe.  

glorybebe, on 02 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

My dad always told me that I would be treated by how I portrayed myself.  If I dressed trashy, i would be treated like trash.  I understand this way of thinking coming from a guy born in the 1930's....but, times have changed.  Men need to take responsibility for their actions.  No woman is looking for it or wants to be raped. Self control on the men's part is definitely needed.  That being said,, It still talk to my daughter about how she can be perceived-thank god she is a tomboy!

Also, she has watched The Big Band Theory....I tell her that while Wolowitz is the one saying perverted things, they are all thinking it.

What your dad said was not just a product of the 30's and men haven't changed that much. This is not to insult men, I'm accepting it as the way Nature made them ...... if you put the goods on show, men are going to take it as a hint. Most men would respond by flirting and see where that got them and this, I think, is the key: most men learn to take it a step at a time and keep observing the signals the woman is giving. Let's not forget that women need to have self-control too and not lead men on and tease them excessively(I can't believe I'm writing this ...... showing my age,lol!).

Lilly, on 02 January 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Exactly, the real issues are personal responsibility and self control. It's just so much easier to blame the victim.

You're absolutely right BUT ....... girls should be taught, and women need to remember that real life very rarely adheres to ideals.

Yamato, on 02 January 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Do I have a right to wear a t-shirt that says "F--- all black people!" ?   Do I have a right to wear a shirt with a Confederate flag on it in Philadelphia or Baltimore?   Do I have a right to wear the Union Jack in the Republic of Ireland?   An Ataturk-is-Gay shirt in Istanbul?   Yeah I do, or at least I should, and black people, Irish, and Turks all have a civic duty to be responsible and not to break the law in response to seeing my shirt.   But, it's still provocative clothing.   It provokes bad behavior in who is viewing my clothes.  Does this different example help it make sense?  I know sometimes we have a bit of difficulty imagining the problem when certain clothing is worn by a woman. And of course women don't ask for rape.  It's not to say that they're responsible for a criminal's behavior either.  Maybe someone will feel offended by a child dressing like a prostitute, and why shouldn't they; and some pervert, God forbid, will feel horny looking at them.   There are evil and dangerous people out there.

Adults can drink what they want, vote how they like, they should be able to dress how they want too.   Not 13 year-olds.  

Over two-thirds (67%) of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies, were juveniles (under the age of 18 at the time of the crime). More than half of all juvenile victims were under age 12. That is, 33% of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement were ages 12 through 17 and 34% were under age 12. Most disturbing is that one of every seven victims of sexual assault ( or 14% of all victims) reported to law enforcement agencies were under age 6.
http://www.yellodyno...rape_stats.html

Thank you for all your posts .... I agree with them wholeheartedly!

Hasina, on 02 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

This is like blaming cupcakes for looking delicious for making someone fat, then making all cupcakes look like muffins.

Umm no, it isn't!

[Hasina]

ouija ouija, on 02 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Umm no, it isn't!

Ouija, my comparison was supposed to be ridiculous because this entire idea of 'prvocative clothing' 'causing' rape is redonkulous, so ridiculous I can't even use the real word.

Edited by Hasina, 02 January 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[TheLastLazyGun]

Quote

Provocative clothing invites attacks

The priest is spot on.

Anyone who doesn't think women dressing provocatively doesn't invite attacks is being very naive.

glorybebe, on 02 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Men need to take responsibility for their actions.

So do women, i.e don't walk down dark alleyways or lonely country lanes dressed like tarts.

There are women out there who go on a night out and dress provocatively in short skirts and boob tubes to get men to notice them - and it IS to get men to notice them -  and then they wonder why, when walking ALONE down a dark alleyway, one of those men jumps out on them and sexually assaults them.

It's alright these uber-feminists blaming everything on big bad nasty men, but they sometimes need to take a look at what their fellow women are doing, too.

And it's not only me who believes this.......

Celebrity lawyer Nick Freeman has sparked anger after claiming that women can "victimise" men by dressing in a sexually provocative way.

The 54-year old solicitor, nicknamed Mr Loophole for his success in securing acquittals in motoring cases, said women who wear "racy" red underwear, skimpy tops and fishnet tights and giraffe-necked stilettos conveyed a message that they only had sex on their minds.

He accused those women who insisted they dressed for themselves and not men of lying and urged them to "take more responsibility" when choosing how they act and what to wear.

In a column in a local newspaper, Mr Freeman - whose clients have included David Beckham, Sir Alex Ferguson, model Caprice and snooker champion Ronnie O'Sullivan - said: "As a red-blooded alpha male, let me state unequivocally that I believe how a woman dresses (and behaves in that dress) tells a man what's on her mind.

"I abhor rape and attacks on women and believe me, as a criminal defence lawyer I've been involved with plenty of cases where those who have been dressed in a perfectly conventional way were still victims of this heinous crime.

"I also strongly believe that Yes is Yes and No is No. But in the real world a woman who behaves or dresses in a sexually provocative way conveys a certain message. A message that ironically can victimise men.

"So ladies, when you say you dress for yourselves and not for us males, I don't believe you. It's time to take responsibility for how you act and
what you wear."

http://www.standard....le-6411338.html

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 02 January 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[Hasina]

TheLastLazyGun, on 02 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

The priest is spot on.

Anyone who doesn't think women dressing provocatively doesn't invite attacks is being very naive.

Which should happen first: Women should dress modestly? Men should stop forcing their dingalings into women when they say no?

One goes against the First Amendment on the Bill of Rights, the other is stopping a crime.

Edit: Now! Before anyone corrects me, I know this is a European thig but freedom of expression, to wear what you want without the fear of being pulled into a alleyway because your skirt is above your knees? Just which seems more logical? Men should stop raping. Women should dress modestly.

Edited by Hasina, 02 January 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[glorybebe]

ouija ouija, on 02 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Yes, it probably was a man that made that phrase up and that's why women should take note! Your last sentence expresses a good idea, obviously, but living our day-to-day lives we have to be more realistic if we want to stay safe.  

What your dad said was not just a product of the 30's and men haven't changed that much. This is not to insult men, I'm accepting it as the way Nature made them ...... if you put the goods on show, men are going to take it as a hint. Most men would respond by flirting and see where that got them and this, I think, is the key: most men learn to take it a step at a time and keep observing the signals the woman is giving. Let's not forget that women need to have self-control too and not lead men on and tease them excessively(I can't believe I'm writing this ...... showing my age,lol!).

You're absolutely right BUT ....... girls should be taught, and women need to remember that real life very rarely adheres to ideals.

Thank you for all your posts .... I agree with them wholeheartedly!

Umm no, it isn't!

while I am not arguing that there are females who need to have self-control-statistics argue with the fact that women are raped just because they are female.  And yes, maybe you are showing your age, not to be nasty, just that society has been trying to change these attitudes, and it is hard when women stick to the old school thoughts that society at that time had.  No means no.  If a women gets all ready to have sex with a guy and has second thoughts, she isn't allowed to change her mind?  A woman wears a mini skirt and she deserves to be raped because she is showing a lot of leg?  We have to stop blaming the victim.  What about male rape victims?  Were they walking around in provocative clothing?  They still had their body violated because someone decided that they could take what they wanted because they wanted it.  WRONG, IMO.

[Hasina]

Glory brings up a really good point: what are male rape victims wearing that makes them irresistible?