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Doggerland


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#136    Abramelin

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 06:54 PM

The next is about 'white Europeans'. If you go search for info on 'white Europeans', you are bound to end up in the Stormfront site, a site about White Supremacists... I am not one of them, that would be weird to say the least...

Anyway, I found something about the place where white Europeans first showed up.... Doggerland. True or not (and I don't know where this guy found his info):




The first white people in Europe were probably from the Aurignacian and Magdalenian Cro-Magnon cultures. This group is uniquely identified by the genetic constitution of an individual chromosome called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype and are thought to have originated on the littoral plains of the European continent during the last ice age. These people ranged from the Iberian peninsula, where they wintered, to summer ranges in what is now the Baltic Sea area and developed what may have been the first civilization of modern homo sapiens.

The difficulty of determining where their homeland might have been is that what was then littoral plain is now under water. Thirteen thousand years ago, around the time the white skin mutation probably appeared, the geography of Europe was very different. The seas were two to four hundred feet lower than they are today. Orkney was part of mainland Scotland, Denmark was about twice its present size, and only a very narrow channel separated Ireland from Galloway in Scotland. Cardigan Bay did not exist, and in its place was the lowland forest of Cantre'r Gwaelod - the drowned land. Lyonesse joined Cornwall to the Isles of Scilly. In those days, there was no English Channel, and very little North Sea. The Thames and the Rhine joined somewhere between Harwich and Vlissingen, and between the Ouse and the Elbe was the peninsula archeologists call Doggerland. The Dogger Bank is now a mere hazard to shipping, but in the Magdalenian era, it was a habitable upland.

Often referred to as a land bridge, Doggerland was in fact more than that. Linking present-day East Anglia, Lower Saxony, Belgium and the Netherlands, and extending as far north as Denmark does now, Doggerland was a crucial region for the Magdalenian people. During the summer, they could safely hunt sub-arctic species in Britain, but when the deep winters of the era bit hard, they retreated to the littoral plains of Doggerland and the adjoining areas. As the centuries passed, the ice retreated, enabling deeper forays into Scotland and Scandinavia.

Around 9600 BCE [wrong: it happened later], the low-lying field connecting Dogger Bank to the European mainland flooded from a process called "isostatic rebound". When the immense weight of the ice-sheets that depressed the continental plates under them during the last Ice Age was removed, the edges of the continental plates began to adjust, with mantle rock flowing into the rising landmass from adjacent areas, including Doggerland. This process is still continuing. The strongest earthquake ever recorded in the British Isles occurred in 1931, measuring 6.1 on the Richter Scale. Its epicenter was located on the Dogger Bank, 60 miles off the Yorkshire coast in the North Sea.

That well may be where the homeland of the first white Europeans lies.

http://gabby3239.pol...mmentId=6924644

Edited by Abramelin, 11 December 2009 - 06:55 PM.


#137    Salami Swami

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:41 PM

Theres one thing im not getting... how is it that doggerland flooded and stayed flooded, but britain stayed afloat all the time?

Posted Image

#138    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 02:21 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 October 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

Just a couple of thousand years ago these areas that are now below sea level might indeed have been marshes then.

--

But thousands of years earlier, things might have been different:

Posted Image





Now about this ´running to the hills´, I assume they forgot what happened some 8000 years BP



And here a detailed pdf about that event and it's effect on the land around (and now under) the North Sea:
The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland by the Storrega Slide tsunami





Noah must have been a Doggerlander (trying to stay on topic here, lol).


Abramelin,

How accurate is this map considered to be? My understanding is that the Dogger Bank is roughly 50 - 120 feet below sea level with the North Sea on average being 310 feet deep. Sea levels being about 400 feet lower at the Last Glacial Maximum, circa 18,000 BC, there would appear to be a significantly greater area that is now submerged than is being shown. Therefore a significantly greater area in which evidence should be looked for.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#139    Abramelin

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 02:43 PM

View PostBliszter, on 12 December 2009 - 10:41 PM, said:

Theres one thing im not getting... how is it that doggerland flooded and stayed flooded, but britain stayed afloat all the time?

You didn't read this thread, obviously.

Britain and the other countries surrounding countries have a higher elevation than Doggerland, which was a lowland (and one hill, the present Dogger Bank). They didn't stay 'floating'...

Btw, if you read in this thread about the Storegga Slide, you will know that Scotland and the islands up north got the most of that tsunami, but they are still above the sea level.

Dogerland was a large lowland, surrounded by hills, hills that are now Britain, Norway and Scotland.


#140    Abramelin

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 02:52 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 13 December 2009 - 02:21 AM, said:

Abramelin,

How accurate is this map considered to be? My understanding is that the Dogger Bank is roughly 50 - 120 feet below sea level with the North Sea on average being 310 feet deep. Sea levels being about 400 feet lower at the Last Glacial Maximum, circa 18,000 BC, there would appear to be a significantly greater area that is now submerged than is being shown. Therefore a significantly greater area in which evidence should be looked for.

cormac

The map is the area of Doggerland as it was shortly after (not during) the LGM.

But because of melting ice and isostatic rebound, Doggerland slowly but surely submerged over the next thousands if years.

And when the tsumani caused by the Storegga Slide hit what was left of Doggerland (as you can see on the maps I posted later in this thread), Doggerland was already a lot smaller; and that was around 8100 BP (6100 BC).

The Doggerland area at that time, 8100 BP is more promising than go look for evidence in the larger area it occupied during the LGM. During the LGM Doggerland was nothing but a large frozen tundra, but around 8100 BP it was a good place to live; some say the avarage temperature was a few degrees Celsius higher than in present Britain. It had large forests, lakes, marshes, meadows, rivers and hills (but not as high as the Dogger Hills).

Edited by Abramelin, 13 December 2009 - 03:17 PM.


#141    Abramelin

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:06 PM

Posted Image


#142    Abramelin

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:12 PM

Btw: the numbers in the picture are outdated: the date for Dogger Island should be 6100 BC according to the latest information, and it was a lot larger (the size of Ireland) than shown in the pic above, and still connected to mainland of Europe and Britain.

At 5000 BC is did not exist any longer as far as is known now, or it was nothing but swampy wasteland (after the tsunami) just a little above sealevel.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 December 2009 - 03:20 PM.


#143    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 November 2009 - 01:10 PM, said:

According to the next site - I already posted about it in the Seafarers thread today - the language of the Meglamosian culture might indeed have been proto-Something-else (lol), like a language related to the present Finno-ugric:

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html

Just wade through the site, it's worth reading.

Now again about these Picts: there is - according to me - a chance their original language (and before they mingled their genes and/or language with those of the later arriving Celtic tribes in the presentday Brittish isles and Ireland) may have been related to that (proto) Finno-ugric language. And maybe this is the case too for the original inhabitants of Doggerland.


I need a linguist here, lol.

But first read that site, please.


======

EDIT:

Something else: I already mentioned in this thread that the name of the seagoddess Nehalennia may have been of non-Indo-European origin, a name later adopted by Celtic/Germanic tribes. Some linguists have tried to explain it as either Celtic or Germanic in origin, using etymology, but they are not certain about that explanation.

But then I found this:

"One point I have to make is that Finno-Ugric and Indo-European are classifications for two totally seperate language families. Finnish might be spoken in Europe, but it is just as seperate from the Indo-European languages as Basque is. We linguists get a little niggly about the different classifications! It would be possible to track Nehalennia's origins through language use, though, and Ragnar is right in thinking that Nehalennia sounds much more Finno-Ugric than Indo-European, I've never seen a word outside of Finnish that resembles the same pattern! "

http://www.paganlibr...&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


.

You may find this interesting;

"The other languages now spoken in Europe are generally thought to be unrelated to Indo-european and consist mainly of the Finno-Ugric branch of the Uralic phylum, which includes Finish, Estonian, Sammi(Lapp) and Hungarian. these languages have a completely different word structure to Indo-European languages and are sometimes called 'agglutinating' because of the habit of sticking extra particles onto and into words to modify their meaning and use. In this respect Uralic languages resemble Austronesian languages and the extinct orphan language Sumarian. Some linguists even suggest the possibility of a genetic link between Uralic languages and Sumerian"
Stephen Oppenheimer,Eden in the East, p121

"Mother and father Move west?
The F maternal mtDNA cluster as defined by Torroni and Colleagues, also has two isolated cousins among Caucasian types. One of these comes from a group of Swedes and Finns. There is another Asian echo in Scandinavia. Generally caucasian populations have completely different mtDNA from East Asians, but independent evidence of Asian intrusions into Arctic Europe comes from the paternal or Adams Y chromosome. Tatiana Zergal at the University of Oxford along with her colleagues have linked a unique asian Y chromosome mutation present in Uralic-speaking populations in central asia to the linguistically related Finns estonians and Sammi innorthern Europe and Mari in northwest Russia. Several examples of the mutation also crop up in Norway, suggesting local spread into Norse speaking populations. From the distribution of the mutation Zergal and her colleagues speculate an origin in the Mongolia/China region.....
The saami, who can be traced back by rock engravings to 4200BC, may be genetically the closest survivors to the migraants from the East. A shamanistic culture, their legends record such migrations."
Stephen Oppenheimer,Eden in the East,p211

"The Voguls, a people speaking a Finno-Ugric language located either side of the Ural Mountains, have a flood version that harks right back to the Sumerian or Babylonian original"
Stephen Oppenheimer,Eden in the East,p263

So its eems that the Doggerland settlers may have chosen Doggereland because of its resemblence to their Eastern home.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#144    Abramelin

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:28 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 December 2009 - 04:02 PM, said:

You may find this interesting;

"The other languages now spoken in Europe are generally thought to be unrelated to Indo-european and consist mainly of the Finno-Ugric branch of the Uralic phylum, which includes Finish, Estonian, Sammi(Lapp) and Hungarian. these languages have a completely different word structure to Indo-European languages and are sometimes called 'agglutinating' because of the habit of sticking extra particles onto and into words to modify their meaning and use. In this respect Uralic languages resemble Austronesian languages and the extinct orphan language Sumarian. Some linguists even suggest the possibility of a genetic link between Uralic languages and Sumerian"
Stephen Oppenheimer,Eden in the East, p121

"Mother and father Move west?
The F maternal mtDNA cluster as defined by Torroni and Colleagues, also has two isolated cousins among Caucasian types. One of these comes from a group of Swedes and Finns. There is another Asian echo in Scandinavia. Generally caucasian populations have completely different mtDNA from East Asians, but independent evidence of Asian intrusions into Arctic Europe comes from the paternal or Adams Y chromosome. Tatiana Zergal at the University of Oxford along with her colleagues have linked a unique asian Y chromosome mutation present in Uralic-speaking populations in central asia to the linguistically related Finns estonians and Sammi innorthern Europe and Mari in northwest Russia. Several examples of the mutation also crop up in Norway, suggesting local spread into Norse speaking populations. From the distribution of the mutation Zergal and her colleagues speculate an origin in the Mongolia/China region.....
The saami, who can be traced back by rock engravings to 4200BC, may be genetically the closest survivors to the migraants from the East. A shamanistic culture, their legends record such migrations."
Stephen Oppenheimer,Eden in the East,p211

"The Voguls, a people speaking a Finno-Ugric language located either side of the Ural Mountains, have a flood version that harks right back to the Sumerian or Babylonian original"
Stephen Oppenheimer,Eden in the East,p263

So its eems that the Doggerland settlers may have chosen Doggereland because of its resemblence to their Eastern home.

Br Cornelius

The problem is that you cannot equate genetic links with linguistic links.

The language of the Meglamosian culture may have been some sort of proto FU-Uralic, but that doesn´t mean the people of that culture over that whole area were of the same stock.

I also have read that this culture may have spread from west to east, bringing their language along with them. and in the east and far north(Baltic and Saami) mixed with  the peoples you mentioned.

And, btw, Oppenheimers conclusions and theories are being criticized by many other linguists and geneticists.

As soon as they find bones of homo sapiens at the bottom of the North Sea will we know much more about their genetic make/up.


#145    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 04:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 December 2009 - 04:28 PM, said:

The problem is that you cannot equate genetic links with linguistic links.

The language of the Meglamosian culture may have been some sort of proto FU-Uralic, but that doesn´t mean the people of that culture over that whole area were of the same stock.

I also have read that this culture may have spread from west to east, bringing their language along with them. and in the east and far north(Baltic and Saami) mixed with  the peoples you mentioned.

And, btw, Oppenheimers conclusions and theories are being criticized by many other linguists and geneticists.

As soon as they find bones of homo sapiens at the bottom of the North Sea will we know much more about their genetic make/up.

I think the point is that both Genetic and Linguist tracers support each other in the evidence they suggest. When isolated outcrops of both genes and language coincide it points to the probability that they came together. Of course its a matter of interpretation as to which way the flow went.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#146    Abramelin

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 06:05 PM

At home I have this book, "De Stenen Spreken", by Reinoud de Jonge and Gerard IJzereef.

They are scientists and also interested in sailing and navigating the seas.

According to their theory, many petroglyphs on megalithic structures in Europe (and America) are navigation maps.

They also wrote in English (with an American co-writer), and published this book:
How The Sungod reached America

I re-read the "De Stenen Spreken" (The Stones Speak), and found them talking many times about ancient petroglyphs that depicted the ancient North Sea, when part of Doggerland was still above sea level.

According to the them, the "Wash", an area in the present UK, was connected to the Doggersbank, the largest hill on Doggerland, and the last part of Doggerland that disappeared beneath the waves. These maps I mentioned depict a route to sail around Doggersbank which, apparently, was still above sea level (or just below).

The petroglyphs they are talking about in connection with Doggersbank can be found in Aboboreira, Portugal.

Again, according to their theory, peoples from the western Meditteranean (the ancestors of the Basques???) sailed the seas and carved their maps on megalithic stone structures.

The oldest petroglyph in Aboboreira dates from before 5500 BC.

It's a pitty that these petroglyphs are not online, and that I don't have a scanner to be able to post those petroglyphs here.

Btw, their theory is quite controversial.

EDIT:

A request:

If anyone knows of these Aboboreira petroglyphs, and is able to upload them here, please do.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 December 2009 - 06:46 PM.


#147    Abramelin

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:51 PM

Today I thought I hit jackpot...

I thought I finally found a name of the flood that devastated Doggerland.

I had been Googling for hours again, and came upon a pdf file about the "Oera Linda Book", a known hoax about the history of the Frisian people, and about the land that once was called "Aldland", or what's now called Doggerland.

The book was first published in the 19th century, but during WWII it was re-published, with commentaries by a guy called 'Overwijn'.

He tried to prove that all of it was true, but he had a problem with the date of the destruction of 'Aldland" : 2193 BC.

In the following pdf file you can see - alas for most of you, it's in Dutch - he mentions the "Kimbrische Vloed" (Cimbrian/Cymbrian Flood")...... of 6250 BC !!

http://94.215.66.137...inda%20Boek.pdf

..... scroll down till you see a picture of Doggerland, or better, the dry land that is now the North Sea, and read his comment just below the picture: "Noordwest-Europa voor de Kimbrische Vloed in ca. 6250 v.Chr"(= "North Western Europe before the Cimbrian/Cymbrian Flood, around circa 6250 BC").

Posted Image

But other sources (Strabo) say this 'Cimbrian' Flood occurred much more recently, like 110 BC, and according to an old Dutch source (Schotanus) 350-360 BC, and even 600 BC.

Now what I think is kind of surprizing that this Overwijn guy said 6250 BC, which is almost the exact time as scientists NOW believe to be the final moment of Doggerland (6100 BC).

Edited by Abramelin, 22 December 2009 - 04:21 PM.


#148    Abramelin

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 04:30 PM

Personally I think the whole "Oera Linda Book" is a hoax, and many here in Holland think the same.

The 'etymology' that floods this book - or better, the interpretation of these socalled ancient Frisian writings by later Dutch interpreters - is simply silly. But you have to understand Dutch to be able to come to this conclusion.

And that is the main problem: Dutch is the language of a minority on this earth.

Nevertheless, this Overwijn guy - in his enthousiasm to prove the manuscript to be true - hit jack pot, as far as I am concerned.

But I have no idea where he got his info from; during WWII nothing was known about Doggerland, or the ancient sea bed of the present North Sea.

Well, as far as I know, that is.

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 22 December 2009 - 04:46 PM.


#149    Abramelin

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 05:05 PM

But what keeps bugging me is this: according to some, Doggerland is the homeland of the 'white people', during and after the last ice age.

Frisians are amongst the most white, blond, and blue-eyed people on earth ( and I really do hope this thing doesn't evolve into somekind of racial thing, jeesh. I mean, no one has a problem with anyone trying to pinpoint the origins of the black people or the mongolian people, but as soon as you start talking about the origins of the white people, people start getting visions of nazis and the like. Well, I am certainly not one of them. I hope that much is clear)
.
Could it be that this Oera Linda hoax was created on some very ancient stories of that very 'homeland'?

I searched and searched, and even the present Frisians think it's bull.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 December 2009 - 05:38 PM.


#150    Abramelin

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 06:26 PM

And yet another pfd file worth the trouble of reading when you are interested in this topic:

http://geochemistry....strophe prt.pdf





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