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Archaeological Evidence For Moses


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#271    ShadowSot

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 12:55 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 20 March 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

.... additionally to the little fact that Darwin did not come to the conclusions all by himself as ill-informed creationists always pretend, his work was well founded on previous works by John Stevens Henslow, Richard Owen among others and if Darwin would not have published his book Joseph Dalton Hooker would have published the same theory a few month later. Which demonstrates again: There is nothing more powerful than a idea whose time has come...and nothing weaker and more instigating of fanaticism than a idea whose time has past.
I couldn't remember the names, I remember Darwin was working with one fellow who basically due to health reasons was unable to publish his findings, if I recall correctly. Instead he backed Darwin in his publication.

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#272    questionmark

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 02:05 PM

View PostShadowSot, on 21 March 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

I couldn't remember the names, I remember Darwin was working with one fellow who basically due to health reasons was unable to publish his findings, if I recall correctly. Instead he backed Darwin in his publication.


Among others. Dalton Hooker was the nearest to the goal but there were at least 10 other in several countries researching on the same subject plus a botanist that was finished before Darwin but at the time was in the New Guinea jungle researching (don't remember if it was Hinds or Jukes). By the time he came back Darwin had published his work.

But with science sometimes it is like a race: Only who runs over the line first wins, the rest just tried.

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#273    QuntumWriter

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

QUERY: Prince Tuthmose Figurines Inscription:

Posted Image


I have seen this figurine of Prince Tuthmose depicted on a bier as evidence for his death, but the one thing which troubles me is that translations of the inscription always leave out the first part, the first three signs (bold text), I read it in full as:

Posted Image

HDi nsw ZA sm DHwty-ms mAa-xrw

The word HDi in Gardener means 'destroy, damage' hence the cross sign a determinative sign for 'split, cut up'

Attached File  HDi.png   546bytes   0 downloads

Translation therefore if correct would be: 'Destroy king's son, Sem (Priest), Djhwty-mes, True (of) Voice'

Can anyone please comment on the first part of the translation, am I reading these three signs correctly?


#274    kmt_sesh

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:41 AM

View PostQuntumWriter, on 18 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

QUERY: Prince Tuthmose Figurines Inscription:

Posted Image


I have seen this figurine of Prince Tuthmose depicted on a bier as evidence for his death, but the one thing which troubles me is that translations of the inscription always leave out the first part, the first three signs (bold text), I read it in full as:

Posted Image

HDi nsw ZA sm DHwty-ms mAa-xrw

The word HDi in Gardener means 'destroy, damage' hence the cross sign a determinative sign for 'split, cut up'

Attachment HDi.png

Translation therefore if correct would be: 'Destroy king's son, Sem (Priest), Djhwty-mes, True (of) Voice'

Can anyone please comment on the first part of the translation, am I reading these three signs correctly?

Almost missed your post. It's an interesting question. Although a straight translation for HDi would be "injure, destroy, damage," an alternate translation is "perished" (see Faulkner, page 182).

It's quite unlikely a crown prince who died too young would be vilified in death, so it's more likely HDi in this case is a reference to the negative aspect of the prince's untimely death. I would favor this interpretation because of the few monuments known for Thutmose, all are in reasonably good shape and none display evidence of deliberate damage in the typical Egyptian manner of damnatio memoriae.

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#275    docyabut2

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:49 PM

Archaeologial Evidence for Moses?

Will  they ever find the body, or bones of Moses,  Akhenaten`s  bones have never deen found:)


Deuteronomy 34:5-8
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.


#276    docyabut2

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

kmt, you keep saying Hebrew was not a Egyptian name.

Hebrew- belonging to Eber-desendants of Abraham

In the hebrew language, hebrew aw-bar means a man from beyond, on the writings of Moses, would`nt  they have also labeled him as a man from beyond, a hebrew, it would`n be in the Egyptain language.So hebrews are people from the men of beyond,Abraham and Moses.


#277    questionmark

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

kmt, you keep saying Hebrew was not a Egyptian name.

Hebrew- belonging to Eber-desendants of Abraham

In the hebrew language, hebrew aw-bar means a man from beyond, on the writings of Moses, would`nt  they have also labeled him as a man from beyond, a hebrew, it would`n be in the Egyptain language.So hebrews are people from the men of beyond,Abraham and Moses.

Ok, before we muddy the waters here, most of what we consider the Pentateuch was "accidentally" discovered during the reign of Hezekiah while performing repairs in the temple. There are many references in there that Moses surely could not have known because at his supposed time they did not yet exist. (See Finkelstein and Silberman, The Bible Unearthed, 2002 ISBN 0684869136). Where one tends to suspect that it is like so many other artifacts found both in the Jewish and Christian traditions when they were politically adequate. And the adequate policy at the time was to join both the Samaritan and Judean traditions.

So the Men from Beyond is most probably a generic term for places for which the Egyptians had no name.

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#278    kmt_sesh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:11 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

kmt, you keep saying Hebrew was not a Egyptian name.

Hebrew- belonging to Eber-desendants of Abraham

In the hebrew language, hebrew aw-bar means a man from beyond, on the writings of Moses, would`nt  they have also labeled him as a man from beyond, a hebrew, it would`n be in the Egyptain language.So hebrews are people from the men of beyond,Abraham and Moses.

I'm not completely sure what you're saying. I don't recall stating that the word "Hebrew" was not from the Egyptian language, but if that happens to be what you're saying, I would of course agree that "Hebrew" does not derive from ancient Egyptian.

The precise etymology of "Hebrew" is still debated to this day, as one of numerous designations by which ancient Jewish people referred to themselves.  It probably comes from a Hebrew verb translating as "cross over," which as I understand it refers to the act of the Hebrews entering the Promised Land (Canaan) after their escape from Egypt. According to biblical lore this is when Joshua led the Hebrews in a conquest of Canaan to take it as their own.

The problem with this act of conquest is, there is no evidence for it. Many of the cities that Joshua and his Hebrews were supposed to have conquered, such as Jericho, are revealed in the archaeological record not to have even been occupied at that time (or, if occupied, they were actually little more than backwater settlements with small populations).

Alternatively, to "cross over" could also be a reference to Abraham's journey from Mesopotamia to Canaan. The problem here is, outside the pages of the Old Testament, there is no evidence that a real Abraham ever existed. The stories of Abraham having been written a great many centuries after he was supposed to have lived, he is probably a literary character with no real historicity or, just possibly, a literary device representing any number of separate men who together founded proto-Hebrew settlements in the highlands of Judah.

In any case, the Egyptians didn't usually refer to a foreigner as "men from beyond," unless this is supposed to be a very loose and figurative translation of the ancient Egyptian word xAswt ("khasut"), "foreign land." The Egyptians employed any number of terms to refer to Canaanites in general (including the word "Canaan," which derives from ancient Egyptian) or in more specific terms according to Levantine regions and ethnicities.

The underlying problem with Moses is that the Egyptian historical record is completely silent on him. There is no mention of such a figure in Egyptian annals or folklore. As with Abraham, there is no evidence for the existence of a real Moses outside the pages of the Old Testament, and the same is true for the entire saga of the Hebrew Exodus.

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#279    kmt_sesh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:14 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 20 January 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

...See Finkelstein and Silberman, The Bible Unearthed, 2002 ISBN 0684869136)...

A terrific book and one I highly recommend. If more people read the work of Finkelstein and other prominent archaeologists working in the Holy Land, we would probably have far fewer people trying to argue that Moses and Akhenaten were one and the same and that the Exodus happened in Ahmose I's time or Hatshepsut's time or Amunhotep III's time or Akhenaten's time or Tutankhamun's time or any of the other historically untenable "theories" fringies have thrown out there.

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#280    docyabut2

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

kmt or anyone- question

Why would King Merneptah add a victory over Isreal on stone that Amenhoteop III Akhenaten`s father`s had erected? Like a cover up of some kind.  



The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah) is the reverse of a large granite stele originally erected by the Ancient Egyptian king Amenhotep III, Akhenaten`s father  but later inscribed by Merneptah who ruled Egypt from 1213 to 1203 BC. The black granite stela primarily commemorates a victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel among others.


#281    kmt_sesh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:44 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 21 January 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

kmt or anyone- question

Why would King Merneptah add a victory over Isreal on stone that Amenhoteop III Akhenaten`s father`s had erected? Like a cover up of some kind.  



The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah) is the reverse of a large granite stele originally erected by the Ancient Egyptian king Amenhotep III, Akhenaten`s father  but later inscribed by Merneptah who ruled Egypt from 1213 to 1203 BC. The black granite stela primarily commemorates a victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel among others.

I don't think I even knew Merneptah's victory stela came from a reused monument, but that's not unusual. It was common for royals and nobles to reuse stelae and other monuments for the sake of expediency. The victory stela on which Merneptah commemorated his campaigns is enormous (most photos don't do its size any justice), and the cutting and dressing of such a stela would've been very time consuming. So all Merneptah had to to was turn it over and use the blank side, done deal.

Also consider the fact that Merneptah was already an old man when he came to the throne. He would've known that he was most likely not going to reign for a long time (and he didn't). Cutting corners, per se, was a logical course of action for him, when it came to monument building. Many kings did this sort of thing before and after Merneptah, and rarely was it for the sake of hiding some former king's monument. It certainly would not have been the case with Merneptah's stela, considering how highly regarded Amunhotep III was by later kings.

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#282    docyabut2

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

The Bible says the Hebrews of Moses( who was a Egyptian royal) built the store houses of Ramesses, Ramness I was just a Govener before the Ramesses dynasties began after Athenaten, and tired to destroy all of Athenaten`s family histories.   Would`n it be logical this may have been the pharaoh Ramness`s family`s who gave chase in the exodus?


http://en.wikipedia....ist_of_pharaohs

Edited by docyabut2, 22 January 2013 - 10:33 AM.


#283    questionmark

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 22 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The Bible says the Hebrews of Moses( who was a Egyptian royal) built the store houses of Ramesses, Ramness I was just a Govener before the Ramesses dynasties began after Athenaten, and tired to destroy all of Athenaten`s family histories.   Would`n it be logical this may have been the pharaoh who gave chase in the exodus?


http://en.wikipedia....ist_of_pharaohs

No, because as far as archeology is concerned there never was such a thing, at least not how the Bible claims it. If nearly a million people, plus their families, had left Egypt at any time in the bronze age or Iron Age Egypt would have lost over 1/3 of its population going into a steep decline.  There is no such a decline nor are there suddenly ghost towns that cannot be accounted for.

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#284    TheSearcher

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:56 AM

Questionmark has a good point, the fact of loosing 1/3 of the work force of Egypt would have spelled ruin for the economy of Egypt, even then.  I think this would have been an event recorded in other kingdoms and cultures of the time. Going from a great military power of the region to an economically ruined country, is something people tend to notice.

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#285    kmt_sesh

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:51 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 22 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The Bible says the Hebrews of Moses( who was a Egyptian royal) built the store houses of Ramesses, Ramness I was just a Govener before the Ramesses dynasties began after Athenaten, and tired to destroy all of Athenaten`s family histories.   Would`n it be logical this may have been the pharaoh Ramness`s family`s who gave chase in the exodus?


http://en.wikipedia....ist_of_pharaohs

Biblical scholars who've tried to find some shred of evidence for Exodus have turned to Ramesses II as a possible candidate largely because of the Delta city of Pi-Rameses (pr-ramss, "House of Ramesses"). Imagine their excitement many years ago when an archaeological site did turn out to be this ancient city, so the place itself is real. To stress, the city dates to the reign of Ramesses II and not to his grandfather, Ramesses I, the latter of whom wasn't on the throne long enough to accomplish much of note.

However, questionmark's point is critical. Ancient Egypt was not a slave-based economy, and a significant portion of its population was never slaves. The Old Testament reports something like 600,000 men of fighting age involved in the flight from Egypt, so when you add to that the number of old men, women, and children, the final figure would've approached two million people. Obviously that's not remotely realistic.

While the city of Pi-Rameses was a real place, and while it's mentioned in the Old Testament as one of the cities in which the Hebrews toiled for Pharaoh, this doesn't make Exodus a real event. All it really means is that the Hebrew scribes who penned the story of Exodus had access to old place names of the Egyptian kingdom. All told, many if not most events and places recorded in the Old Testament reveal a Holy Land and environs as was known around the seventh and sixth centuries BCE, but not the thirteenth century BCE when Ramesses II lived.

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