46 replies to this topic

[The_Spartan]

synchronomy, on 15 September 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Not only the same beliefs.
Similar architecture, language, culture, even boatbuilding.
At some point there must have been a global civilization, prior to what is currently documented.

The moot point here is "There MUST HAVE BEEN a global civilization"

The favourite line of the fringe fraternity (sorry Snychronomy, not calling you a fringe, but if you are, it applies to you)
The fringe fraternity will never state with firmness anything on their pet fringe theories.
it will always be

It could have been
it might have been
it must have been

never

It is
it was


Is there any evidence for a global civilization?
No. No body has found out any such evidence that is conclusive.

Only thing that exists is similarities.


Quetzalcoatl was a creator god hood, The White Tezcatlipoca,  the god of light, mercy and wind.

In Asian and South Asian mythology Nagas were a class of lower deities/beings/entities. they were not creator godhoods.
South Asian Serpent worship mainly derives from Hinduism.
The Middle east had the Mesopotamian underworld deity Ningishzida, and many prehistoric snake cults.

The basic idea of worshipping snakes was the human misconception that snakes were immortal due to their ability to  shed their skin and live on. This gave rise to numerous snake cults in many places, even unrelated.

Major snake worship  was

1. In Hinduism with the worship of Nagas.
2. In Greek/Roman Mythology as The caduceus, which  was the staff of Mercury/Hermes, iris(Hera's messenger) and had a staff with two intertwined snakes   and these two snakes stood for commerce & negotiation, as such Mercury was the god of the merchants, trader & commerce guilds. it has nothing to do with  snake worship. it is just symbology.
3. In Greek Mythology, as The Rod of Asclepius. Difference between The Caduceus andThe Rod of Asclepius is that The Rod of Asclepius has only one snake on it. The reason why only one snake is shown on it is because of the nature of the snake shedding its skin and renewing itself. It is not worship in fact, but sorts of symbology.
Many have mistaken The Caduceus with The Rod of Asclepius. It is just because they don't know the difference.

Mankind worshipped nature which included the natural forces and the fauna.
It was not that all mankind worshipped nature in the same manner.
Different civilization/cultures worshipped nature differently, their worship/belief/religion/cults having evolved differently.
Assimilation of beliefs between cultures is common during the migration, intermingling, trade and contact between them.

But putting a theory of a Global Civilization as the source of serpent worship is too far fetched and without evidence other than similarities.

[synchronomy]

The_Spartan, on 15 September 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

The moot point here is "There MUST HAVE BEEN a global civilization"

The favourite line of the fringe fraternity (sorry Snychronomy, not calling you a fringe, but if you are, it applies to you)
The fringe fraternity will never state with firmness anything on their pet fringe theories.
it will always be

It could have been
it might have been
it must have been

never

It is
it was


Is there any evidence for a global civilization?
No. No body has found out any such evidence that is conclusive.

Only thing that exists is similarities.


Quetzalcoatl was a creator god hood, The White Tezcatlipoca,  the god of light, mercy and wind.

In Asian and South Asian mythology Nagas were a class of lower deities/beings/entities. they were not creator godhoods.
South Asian Serpent worship mainly derives from Hinduism.
The Middle east had the Mesopotamian underworld deity Ningishzida, and many prehistoric snake cults.

The basic idea of worshipping snakes was the human misconception that snakes were immortal due to their ability to  shed their skin and live on. This gave rise to numerous snake cults in many places, even unrelated.

Major snake worship  was

1. In Hinduism with the worship of Nagas.
2. In Greek/Roman Mythology as The caduceus, which  was the staff of Mercury/Hermes, iris(Hera's messenger) and had a staff with two intertwined snakes   and these two snakes stood for commerce & negotiation, as such Mercury was the god of the merchants, trader & commerce guilds. it has nothing to do with  snake worship. it is just symbology.
3. In Greek Mythology, as The Rod of Asclepius. Difference between The Caduceus andThe Rod of Asclepius is that The Rod of Asclepius has only one snake on it. The reason why only one snake is shown on it is because of the nature of the snake shedding its skin and renewing itself. It is not worship in fact, but sorts of symbology.
Many have mistaken The Caduceus with The Rod of Asclepius. It is just because they don't know the difference.

Mankind worshipped nature which included the natural forces and the fauna.
It was not that all mankind worshipped nature in the same manner.
Different civilization/cultures worshipped nature differently, their worship/belief/religion/cults having evolved differently.
Assimilation of beliefs between cultures is common during the migration, intermingling, trade and contact between them.

But putting a theory of a Global Civilization as the source of serpent worship is too far fetched and without evidence other than similarities.

I stand corrected.  Good point.  I'm definately not fringe nor to I buy into "ancient astronaut theories".
I do think though that ancient civilizations were a lot more advanced than they are given credit my many authors.
I should have used "...there may have been" or something as you suggested.
I am constantly critical of authors, who when discussing topics relating to their own speculation and conjecture, state things like. "It is clear that...", "obviously the only conclusion one can draw is...", the list goes on and on.
In this case I am guilty of poor choice of grammar, and it doesn't truly reflect my views.

It is possible that even if there was no communication between civilizations exhibiting common elements, humans are "hardwired" to develop a certain way given the environment they are subject to?
For instance, if ancient cultures were subject to frequent violent earthquakes, then they may have found it necessary to develop megalithic architecture.  Also, they may have learned quickly that the triangle, hence the pyramid, is the strongest geometric form.
Also, on the common elements of astronomical observation, the same stars are used for navigation or spirituality simply because they are the most readily recognized in the night sky.
Perhaps the similarities in shipbuilding is because given similar materials, there is a "best" way to build a boat.

I don't have the answers, but I expect someday the truth will be known, but there's a lot more digging and research to be done before that happens.

Edited by synchronomy, 15 September 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Qwaiser]

An interesting fact, is that in west africa there are more stories about serpents. The Hausa's ancestor bayajida is said to have killed a snake guarding a well, after that he married the queen of Daura and his 7 sons ruled the hausa land. There is also the story of the founded of the Oyo empire, he went to the Nupe (Tapa) and there a chief gave him a magic snake which he was said to follow for 7 days and wherever the snake enters the ground, that is where he should build his kingdom.

In the most west african religions, snakes are considered sacred especially the ouroboros

[The Puzzler]

Qwaiser, on 16 September 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

An interesting fact, is that in west africa there are more stories about serpents. The Hausa's ancestor bayajida is said to have killed a snake guarding a well, after that he married the queen of Daura and his 7 sons ruled the hausa land. There is also the story of the founded of the Oyo empire, he went to the Nupe (Tapa) and there a chief gave him a magic snake which he was said to follow for 7 days and wherever the snake enters the ground, that is where he should build his kingdom.

In the most west african religions, snakes are considered sacred especially the ouroboros

Pangool (in Serer and Cangin) singular : Fangool (var : Pangol and Fangol^[2]), are the ancient saints and ancestral spirits of the Serer people of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania. The Pangool play a crucial role in Serer religion and history. In a religious sense, they act as interceders between the living world and the supreme being Roog or Koox.^[3] In a historical sense, the ancient Serer village and town founders called Lamanes were believed to be accompanied by a group of Pangool as they travelled in search of land to exploit. These Lamanes became guardians of Serer religion and created shrines in honour of the Pangool, thus becoming the custodians of the Pangool cult.^[1]
There are several Pangool in Serer religion and each one is associated with a specific attribute, have their own sacred place of worship, means of worship, etc. The symbol of the Pangool is the serpent, represented by two coiled snakes

The etymology of fangool comes from the Serer phrase Fang Qool which means the sacred serpent^[7] the plural of which is pangool. Fangool means serpent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangool

Abe has an interesting Topic on the Serer people  http://www.unexplain...howtopic=233044

[The Gremlin]

Wherever there are snakes (and some places where there are not) there are serpent cults, myths, legends, stories.....why?

because they are interesting and dangerous.
They shed their skin....(links with reincarnation/immortality cults)
Medically instructive.....Brazen Serpent, Caduceus....
connotations of Fertility of the soil
Wisdom
protection
danger/death

No need of an unifying serpent culture to spread the word.....most of the world already venerated/feared and apeased snakes and serpent spirits/deities.

[Harsh86_Patel]

In light of a few arguments given hear to justify 'Snake' worship as a natural thing to do for isolated cultures,why didn't the same apply to so many other animals which are equally enigmatic say for example a Lion,it has a royal mane and seems ferocious at the same time awe inspiring.

[Harsh86_Patel]

synchronomy, on 15 September 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I stand corrected.  Good point.  I'm definately not fringe nor to I buy into "ancient astronaut theories".
I do think though that ancient civilizations were a lot more advanced than they are given credit my many authors.
I should have used "...there may have been" or something as you suggested.
I am constantly critical of authors, who when discussing topics relating to their own speculation and conjecture, state things like. "It is clear that...", "obviously the only conclusion one can draw is...", the list goes on and on.
In this case I am guilty of poor choice of grammar, and it doesn't truly reflect my views.

It is possible that even if there was no communication between civilizations exhibiting common elements, humans are "hardwired" to develop a certain way given the environment they are subject to?
For instance, if ancient cultures were subject to frequent violent earthquakes, then they may have found it necessary to develop megalithic architecture.  Also, they may have learned quickly that the triangle, hence the pyramid, is the strongest geometric form.
Also, on the common elements of astronomical observation, the same stars are used for navigation or spirituality simply because they are the most readily recognized in the night sky.
Perhaps the similarities in shipbuilding is because given similar materials, there is a "best" way to build a boat.

I don't have the answers, but I expect someday the truth will be known, but there's a lot more digging and research to be done before that happens.

Dont supress your native or intuitive intelligence.Ascribing to an ancient global civilization or universal culture doesn't make you any sort of nutter as evolutionist themselves claim that Man evolved in Africa and spread through out the world and they are not considered nutters.So if this is correct then at some point of time there would have been common descent of all peoples of the world.


BTW-Fringe doesn't mean believing in 'ancient astronaut theory',it means stating things which are not accepted by professional historians at present (who themselves are always rectifying and correcting their previous theories).All new breakthroughs wether eventually accepted by Historians or not,come in the category of fringe.Though at UM it has come down to be used as derogatory and insulting term.

[synchronomy]

Harsh86_Patel, on 18 September 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

BTW-Fringe doesn't mean believing in 'ancient astronaut theory',it means stating things which are not accepted by professional historians at present (who themselves are always rectifying and correcting their previous theories).All new breakthroughs wether eventually accepted by Historians or not,come in the category of fringe.Though at UM it has come down to be used as derogatory and insulting term.

Then I guess I am fringe.

[The_Spartan]

Well Harsh, you are a fringie !!

[Qwaiser]

@ Harsh86
Found out in Armenian mythology, they considered the lion sacred, the Assyrians and Babylonians also used the lion and like every where, it was used as a symbol of kingship, bravery and i think warriors used it too. Animals like crocodiles were thought to be sacred by some people too.

[The Puzzler]

The passages, inscribed on the subterranean walls of the pyramid of King Unas at Saqqara, reveal that the Egyptians enlisted the magical assistance of Semitic Canaanites from the ancient city of Byblos, located in what is now Lebanon.
The Canaanite spells were invoked to help protect mummified kings against poisonous snakes, one of ancient Egypt's most dreaded nemeses.
According to the incantations, female snakes—acting as mediators for Canaanite magicians—used their multiple mouths and sexual organs to prevent other snakes from entering the mummified rulers' remains.
The passages date from between 2400 to 3000 B.C. and appear to be written in Proto-Canaanite, a direct ancestor of biblical Hebrew (see a timeline of ancient Egypt).
In fact, experts say, the inscriptions may help them solve several long-standing mysteries of the Bible and ancient Egypt.

http://news.national...ake-spells.html

Seems to me the 5th Dynasty era is one where massive Canaanite influence came into Egypt, with Osiris/Orion even being imported at that time.

[The Puzzler]

I'm thinking that Colchis could have been a settlement by people of Akhenatens time and realm, a Sun city for the Aten, then the Medes come from there, as Aryans, Colchis name really being Aia - the Sun, the Aia, the Aten worshippers, one God people - the Persians began from them, Ahura Mazda equates to the Aten as being an eye in the sky, he is Ahura Mazda's eye.

I don't know about hands either on the ends of the Aten, they kinda look like snake heads to me.

[The Puzzler]

Qwaiser, on 19 September 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

@ Harsh86
Found out in Armenian mythology, they considered the lion sacred, the Assyrians and Babylonians also used the lion and like every where, it was used as a symbol of kingship, bravery and i think warriors used it too. Animals like crocodiles were thought to be sacred by some people too.

Lions are extremely interesting to follow around, particularly how now it is very European and royal - I just think it didn't have the rebirth, renewal quality of the snake making it important in some respects but not comparable to the serpent.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Enki (ancient sumerian) also represented by a Snake at times.
Quatzequatel(meso american) aslo represented by a Serpent.
Viracocha (south american) represented as a feathered Serpent.

Why would so many people represent their primary deities with such slithery slimy and often poisonous animals.

[The Gremlin]

Harsh86_Patel, on 18 September 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

In light of a few arguments given hear to justify 'Snake' worship as a natural thing to do for isolated cultures,why didn't the same apply to so many other animals which are equally enigmatic say for example a Lion,it has a royal mane and seems ferocious at the same time awe inspiring.

Snakes are almost universal, which is why we can find snake cults almost universally......not only isolated cultures, but also as cultural phenomena that crosses cultures with the trades of goods and ideas, either reinforcing existing traditions, or assimilating them/being assimilated by them.    even in places where there are no snakes or indiginous snake veneration.

Sun worship/cults are likewise found pretty much everywhere.

lions have important cultural significance to those cultures that encounter them, and again further afield....as you say, most often to signify the strength of kingship.

The eagle (or other big birds of prey) is another example.

Dogs/wolf, are another.

Bovines (cows, bulls) are another.

and the list goes on......

It doesnt mean that at some time there was one universal culture which later split.