97 replies to this topic

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 06 October 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

No, you see you are allowing your  (dis)belief to stand in the place of reason.

I dont imagine anything. Unless under the influence of a powerful medical  narcoticm and then i am hallucinating, and and very well aware of that fact.. ANgels are no more a produc t of my imagination than dogs or cats. Either everything in life is an illusion or nothing is, if you apply the same standards of evidence and the same logic to establishing any reality.

So yes I can KNOW such things are real, to the same extent i can know any thing outside my mind is real. And for the same reasons.

There may be nothing logical in believing in the paranormal. I dont believe in anything. But it is illogical to deny evidenced reality no matter how strange or unbelievable it seems to a person. The paranormal is real Ive been dealing with it all my life and i can verify  most of that via indpendent observers and witnesses. .I'd go so far to say that there is nothing paranormal, merely normaities we dont fully understand as yet. Most of the paranormal will be achievable by human science within 200 years includig the dematerialisation and rematerialisation of matter,. the constructionof matter from pure energy via templates and the immortality of the human mind and body and thought transference .

You know you have missed your way  ,you should have been a fiction writer,you have the imagination for it.
bearing in mind that I have always thought you were pulling our chain on here  and all you write is fiction

  fullywired

[orangepeaceful79]

Whiteplume, on 27 September 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Have you ever had an experience that changed your mind regarding the paranormal? For instance, did you once believe in ghosts, but an event changed your mind? Or, conversely, did you once not believe, but then have a ghostly experience? I'd love to hear your stories.

I was a believer in all things paranormal until I joined this site, surprisingly.  It was only here that I discovered how little evidence I had based all my assumptions on.  I've never experienced the paranormal, except through shows like Ghost Hunters, Ghost adventures and the like - all entertainment masquerading as scientific examination.  All chock full of confirmation bias and pareidolia.  It was only through joining this site and participating in discussions on this subject matter with many of the excellent members here that I came to realize that everything I had believed so fervently in was pretty illogical and easily explained.

I'd still like to be a believer, but I feel that this site has raised my standards considerably.  To the point that which if I even had a paranormal experience of my own I would be more apt to question and dismiss it than to change my current viewpoint - unless I was able to colelct some sort of corroborating evidence for it.  Without evidence, eyewitness reports are just that - reports of people doing the best they can with their very subjective senses, and retelling the story based on what they think they saw.  Its why every good trial lawyer knows its pretty tough to convict on eyewitness testimony alone.

I could be wrong though.  Maybe I'll have an experience and it will be so incredible it will change my viewpoint forever. Seems more likely though that since I haven't had a single experience in my 33 year so far that I probably wont in the next 33 years.  I'll keep my mind open to the possibility though.  No harm in that.

[White Unicorn]

orangepeaceful79, on 07 October 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I was a believer in all things paranormal until I joined this site, surprisingly.  It was only here that I discovered how little evidence I had based all my assumptions on.  I've never experienced the paranormal, except through shows like Ghost Hunters, Ghost adventures and the like - all entertainment masquerading as scientific examination.  All chock full of confirmation bias and pareidolia.  It was only through joining this site and participating in discussions on this subject matter with many of the excellent members here that I came to realize that everything I had believed so fervently in was pretty illogical and easily explained.

I'd still like to be a believer, but I feel that this site has raised my standards considerably.  To the point that which if I even had a paranormal experience of my own I would be more apt to question and dismiss it than to change my current viewpoint - unless I was able to colelct some sort of corroborating evidence for it.  Without evidence, eyewitness reports are just that - reports of people doing the best they can with their very subjective senses, and retelling the story based on what they think they saw.  Its why every good trial lawyer knows its pretty tough to convict on eyewitness testimony alone.

I could be wrong though.  Maybe I'll have an experience and it will be so incredible it will change my viewpoint forever. Seems more likely though that since I haven't had a single experience in my 33 year so far that I probably wont in the next 33 years.  I'll keep my mind open to the possibility though.  No harm in that.

I am a believer in some things but I like your healthy attitude!   Keep an open mind and toss out the explained that's the way to go, too many fakes and gullible listeners accepting on blind faith.   If you hear a friend had an experience and you believe him check it out yourself and you might get the experience you haven't come across during your 33 years.  You have to be in the right place at the right time. Usually starts as dumb luck but leads to more clues to discover more.  It's a mysterious and perplexing adventure after that

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 06 October 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Untrue. (Mostly becaus  it is far too generalised a statement)

Again it is the perceotion of pain  (the feeling of the pain) which cause the heart rate to go up. An unconscious anaethetised person does not feel the pain, thus their heart rate is unaltered.

Yes, anesthesia is an excellent pain killer.  

Quote

it isalso quite possible to contol heart rate and all metabolic functions via your mind. In humans pain is a product of our self aware consciousness as much as our physiology, and how we think about pain can have a very big impact on how we feel pain.

Studies have shown consistently that higher levels of pain increase heart rate. You can list exceptional cases but they're not statistically significant. The study on acupuncture showed heart rate increases were consistent with perceived pain levels in the specific conditions they studied and it showed that people were not able to decrease their heart rate when they felt their pain levels should have decreased.

[Render]

Mr Walker, on 04 October 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

I certainly suspect that skeptics are far less satisfied and more restless in their existence They dont have an answer for anything, and that makes life more  difficult and frustrating.

here you go:
Religious Experiences Shrink Part of Brain

Quote

There is evidence that members of religious groups who are persecuted or in the minority might have markedly greater stress and anxiety as they try to navigate their own society. Other times, a person might perceive God to be punishing them and therefore have significant stress in the face of their religious struggle. Others experience religious struggle because of conflicting ideas with their religious tradition or their family. Even very positive, life-changing experiences might be difficult to incorporate into the individual’s prevailing religious belief system and this can also lead to stress and anxiety. Perceived religious transgressions can cause emotional and psychological anguish. This “religious” and “spiritual pain” can be difficult to distinguish from pure physical pain. And all of these phenomena can have potentially negative effects on the brain.

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=233847

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 07 October 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

You know you have missed your way  ,you should have been a fiction writer,you have the imagination for it.
bearing in mind that I have always thought you were pulling our chain on here  and all you write is fiction

  fullywired

It really is just a difference in experiential knolwedge Most people heve some degree of difference in experiential knowledge. We seem to have a great degree I find it hard ot believe any huma can live a few decades without encountering real physical examples of the supernatural/paranormal You find i he reverse impossible I think i have a higherr 'contact rate" of such things than most people.

I remember watching john travolta in "phenomenum" and first thinking , "oh yes at last a film which sees such things as genuine and real" Then they cop out, by giving him a tumour. That had me worried because many of my abilities were very similar ot those he had in the film, but continued scans gave me a clean bill of health.

I was listening to alison dubois on the local radio the other day, explaining how she perceives dead people in different ways. She went on to say that her mother "just knew", clearly and absolutely, when anyone in her family had passed away.

  This was the case with my mother from birth. She also knew when one of her children was injured or in danger. One night she woke dad up to tell him my younger brother had fallen off his motor bike and was lying injured somewhere. They got out of bed, into the car, and mum directed dad straight to the accident site, a few blocks away from our home. So maybe it is hereditary.

Ps i  do write for pleasure, and in the past i wrote for other people, creating modules of dungeons and dragons. I write book reviews also. But what i write on UM is basically as true as i can present something which is filtered through my own understandings and perceptions. I can give clear physical descriptions of various events, but i can't explain the causation or nature of many of them.

I have a brilliant imagination But it is also a form of logicla and scientific extrapolation I can see something from mentla conception through construction to finidhed reality This is a skill my father, a very talented tradesman in fitting turning boilermaking etc gave to me.  He made everything form model powered planes through sailing boats and all sorts of toys for us through to an A frame holiday home which last sold for half a million dollars. I made all sorts of devices a child /teenager, culminating in explosive devices rockets etc.

I wrote stories for my younger siblings starting when i was 4 or five.

I also have an incredible dream life I am not just a lucid dreamer but can control and consciously create whole dream scapes and dream worlds; scenarios characters etc I have created whole worlds in fiction with acurate geographies topograpghies rurla and urban lancsapes and histories cultures and peoples  I call on skills from geography history politics sociology and psychology to do this plus a huge amount of read material
BUT there is a distinct difernce between the three worlds i inhabit.

I wrote a major piece at universit yon this and got a distinction for it. The real world, the world of the imagination and the word of dreams are distinct entities A person who occupies all of them fully must have very strong resality checkers and a very strong grounding in reality to be certain which one the y are occupying  at any time. My practice in this from a few years old is, in part, how i can know what is from the real world, wha t is from the dreamworld and what exists in the worlds of my imagination. I often deliberately use things from the dream world and the world of my imagiantion for creative purposes especially in playing with, and entertaining, children up into their mid teens.,

[Mr Walker]

Render, on 08 October 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

here you go:
Religious Experiences Shrink Part of Brain


http://www.unexplain...howtopic=233847

Its best to include the whole post, which presents an entirely different emphases




In this study, Owen et al. used MRI to measure the volume of the hippocampus, a central structure of the limbic system that is involved in emotion as well as in memory formation. They evaluated the MRIs of 268 men and women aged 58 and over, who were originally recruited for the NeuroCognitive Outcomes of Depression in the Elderly study, but who also answered several questions regarding their religious beliefs and affiliation. The study by Owen et al. is unique in that it focuses specifically on religious individuals compared to non-religious individuals. This study also broke down these individuals into those who are born again or who have had life-changing religious experiences.
The results showed significantly greater hippocampal atrophy in individuals reporting a life-changing religious experience. In addition, they found significantly greater hippocampal atrophy among born-again Protestants, Catholics, and those with no religious affiliation, compared with Protestants not identifying as born-again.
The authors offer the hypothesis that the greater hippocampal atrophy in selected religious groups might be related to stress. They argue that some individuals in the religious minority, or those who struggle with their beliefs, experience higher levels of stress. This causes a release of stress hormones that are known to depress the volume of the hippocampus over time. This might also explain the fact that both non-religious as well as some religious individuals have smaller hippocampal volumes.
This is an interesting hypothesis. Many studies have shown positive effects of religion and spirituality on mental health, but there are also plenty of examples of negative impacts. There is evidence that members of religious groups who are persecuted or in the minority might have markedly greater stress and anxiety as they try to navigate their own society. Other times, a person might perceive God to be punishing them and therefore have significant stress in the face of their religious struggle. Others experience religious struggle because of conflicting ideas with their religious tradition or their family. Even very positive, life-changing experiences might be difficult to incorporate into the individual’s prevailing religious belief system and this can also lead to stress and anxiety. Perceived religious transgressions can cause emotional and psychological anguish. This “religious” and “spiritual pain” can be difficult to distinguish from pure physical pain. And all of these phenomena can have potentially negative effects on the brain.

http://www.scientifi...k-part-of-brain

There are many things which could be said about these studies But note the qualifiers bolded
First bolded section. Which is cause and which is effect and why should protestants be immune?
"They offer the hypothesis" and "argue"  were not words mentioned in your original quote.

And these individuals came from "some individuals in th e religious minority" or who struggle with their faith and as a consequence may be stressed Yes any minority group,  or people suffering internal conflict, may be stressed and have symptoms of tha t stress. Tha tis not the result of their faith or religion but their minority status and their doubts.


You missed the bolded bit on positive effects of religion and spirituality on mental health.

All the final section is true but heavily qualified by specific problems in the individuals concerned. Atheists can and will face identical problems wth families, sexuality, conflicting values and ethics, relationships etc. If they adjust/adapt healthily they will not be affected as much as those who struggle to adjust. But these are not stressors cause d by religion so much as by conflict scenarios arising within a religious framework. As stated, the same stressors and consequent mental issues will arise with atheists. Sometimes in a non religious framework, but perhaps also in a conflict between religious family members and non religious ones.

Finally, the peopl studied were all about 60 or over, and suffering from depression. That is hardly a representative sample. The fact tha they were identified first as being dperessed, is going to severely skew any statistical outcomes compared to, say, a group selected who had never suffered from depression in their life.

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 October 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[Vlade1]

I've seen people change their Minds. I suppose at some point I changed my mind... I'm sort of a contradiction I suppose, I believe in some "strange" things and Yet i'm extremely skeptical.