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Wheels within wheels


Roybat

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In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

2 On the fifth of the month—it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin— 3 the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians.[a] There the hand of the Lord was on him.

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.

Some years ago I constructed a timetable of biblical events seen as solar eclipses. When God said or God appeared and angels appeared there was usually a solar eclipse about that time and place. I placed the captivity about 565 BCE. So 559 BC could be close to the 5th year. Babylon 14th Jan an annular eclipse at about 1:00 pm would have been seen from the north. Even people today are held in awe by such a spectacle.

post-140320-0-14967600-1457060574_thumb.post-140320-0-58633500-1457060577_thumb.

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It's a pity that roughly 90% of Biblical "history" can be proven as fictional. Do fictional historical people have as much fear of eclipses as real people?

--Jaylemurph

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It's a pity that roughly 90% of Biblical "history" can be proven as fictional. Do fictional historical people have as much fear of eclipses as real people?

--Jaylemurph

I don't see it that way. The Bible as we know it is copies of copies of copies, there is no extant 1st edition. Unfortunately it got claimed by the Roman church as absolute truth and became a solely religious book. To the Hebrews it was their cosmology, science and history based on what they knew at the time which was very little. Moses wrote the Pentateuch? I Doubt it very much. Most of it was written or copied during the captivity, a proven event in Middle Eastern history. Archaeologic evidence proves that King Ahab existed so it is fair enough to assume that his descendants and following kings existed too. Fragments of the book of Ezekiel were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't dismiss anything as fictional when events like the above correspond to what is written
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I don't see it that way. The Bible as we know it is copies of copies of copies, there is no extant 1st edition. Unfortunately it got claimed by the Roman church as absolute truth and became a solely religious book. To the Hebrews it was their cosmology, science and history based on what they knew at the time which was very little. Moses wrote the Pentateuch? I Doubt it very much. Most of it was written or copied during the captivity, a proven event in Middle Eastern history. Archaeologic evidence proves that King Ahab existed so it is fair enough to assume that his descendants and following kings existed too. Fragments of the book of Ezekiel were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't dismiss anything as fictional when events like the above correspond to what is written

That's a logical fallacy; by exactly the same logic, one could say that there's historical evidence that H. G. Wells existed, so Doctor Who must also exist since they were both in the same episode on TV. Evidence for one thing is not the same thing as evidence for another. How do you reconcile your "facts" with the historical reality that no Biblical-style Exodus ever happened? Are you suggesting that the six-day creation myth is literally real, too? Real historians have to build up a hierarchy of documentation and sources and critical evaluate their findings based on those; not cherry-pick the few things that fit their scenario and fudge the rest, as you've done here.

--Jaylemurph

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It's a pity that roughly 90% of Biblical "history" can be proven as fictional. Do fictional historical people have as much fear of eclipses as real people?

However, there's actually good archaeological and textual evidence for the Captivity (multiple ones, actually) in this timeframe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

Scholars have been relying on archaeological material and textual material, though.

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I don't see it that way. The Bible as we know it is copies of copies of copies, there is no extant 1st edition. Unfortunately it got claimed by the Roman church as absolute truth and became a solely religious book. To the Hebrews it was their cosmology, science and history based on what they knew at the time which was very little. Moses wrote the Pentateuch? I Doubt it very much. Most of it was written or copied during the captivity, a proven event in Middle Eastern history. Archaeologic evidence proves that King Ahab existed so it is fair enough to assume that his descendants and following kings existed too. Fragments of the book of Ezekiel were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't dismiss anything as fictional when events like the above correspond to what is written

Many here would not admit there is a God if insurmountable proof was offered. They'd rather scoff and look down the nose. It won't just be they who are surprised at His coming though. I think even believers - maybe ESPECIALLY believers - are going to be amazed to learn the simple truth of it all. "without faith it is impossible to please God"
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That's a logical fallacy; by exactly the same logic, one could say that there's historical evidence that H. G. Wells existed, so Doctor Who must also exist since they were both in the same episode on TV. Evidence for one thing is not the same thing as evidence for another. How do you reconcile your "facts" with the historical reality that no Biblical-style Exodus ever happened? Are you suggesting that the six-day creation myth is literally real, too? Real historians have to build up a hierarchy of documentation and sources and critical evaluate their findings based on those; not cherry-pick the few things that fit their scenario and fudge the rest, as you've done here.

--Jaylemurph

That's a logical fallacy; by exactly the same logic, one could say that there's historical evidence that H. G. Wells existed, so Doctor Who must also exist since they were both in the same episode on TV. Evidence for one thing is not the same thing as evidence for another. How do you reconcile your "facts" with the historical reality that no Biblical-style Exodus ever happened? Are you suggesting that the six-day creation myth is literally real, too? Real historians have to build up a hierarchy of documentation and sources and critical evaluate their findings based on those; not cherry-pick the few things that fit their scenario and fudge the rest, as you've done here.

--Jaylemurph

You put up a good argument. What did the original book of Genesis contain ? We don't know.Genesis is a latin word and what we have is a latin copy. Perhaps it had more details which Eusebius didn't like. If God was not mentioned on a page rip it out. Six day creation was their cosmology as ours is the big bang. They had nothing else to put in it's place. I am an atheist therefore I can pick and choose. If you believe it is the word of God you can't, The Exodus? Maybe maybe not, but it seems to tell of a major natural disaster which may have been recorded by an Egyptian. Papyrus of Ipuwer. Scholars and archaeologists are working to establish proofs. If you want to dismiss it all as rubbish that's your privilege. I'll cherry pick as you put it as I do with new books that appear on the subject.
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Many here would not admit there is a God if insurmountable proof was offered. They'd rather scoff and look down the nose. It won't just be they who are surprised at His coming though. I think even believers - maybe ESPECIALLY believers - are going to be amazed to learn the simple truth of it all. "without faith it is impossible to please God"

Throughout history there may have been about 3,000 Gods worshipped. So I don't believe in 3,000. You don't believe in 2,999. So who is your God? Zeus? Jupiter? Mars? If insurmountable proof was given, and I mean absolute proof I would accept it gladly

http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_gods%3F

Edited by Roybat
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I don't know how can anyone offer proof of existence of God .imo those who believe should be left alone and those who don't should also be left alone without forcing each other there opinion or facts or proofs.

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I don't know how can anyone offer proof of existence of God .imo those who believe should be left alone and those who don't should also be left alone without forcing each other there opinion or facts or proofs.

I don't force my atheism on others but I get people knocking on my door telling they've come to save me. I can't prove there is a God but look at the state of the world today and that's enough proof that there isn't one
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Many here would not admit there is a God if insurmountable proof was offered. They'd rather scoff and look down the nose. It won't just be they who are surprised at His coming though. I think even believers - maybe ESPECIALLY believers - are going to be amazed to learn the simple truth of it all. "without faith it is impossible to please God"

...and interesting experiment. If you could find the time could you get God to present such proof - and since they know what every person thinks he will be able to give to each person the proof they will accept as they are infallible and all mighty - except in those cases where he/she/it is not..

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I posted this topic about Ezekiel''s vision. Somehow it's got twisted into an argument about the existence of God. Discuss that elsewhere. While some of you sit on your asses and say the Bible is **** other learned people are out there digging up evidence and reading ancient scrolls and steles. I have been disabled for some time and I sit at my computer or read books on history ancient and modern including that load of rubbish. I find a date from my reading then search for astronomical events that might fit. Ezekiel''s wheels, Sodom & Gomorrah, Star of Bethlehem (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/column.php?id=250695). if some of you find it interesting,all well and good. If you don't like it don't read it

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The bible is stated already in this thread, mostly fiction. Genesis has been mentioned. It contains two different creation myths and neither matches the world we see around us. Sure the captivity part appears to be based on real events, but that does not mean or suggest that anything else is correct. The entire exodus story is fiction. Noah's flood never happened. Most of the bible is fiction.

A long time ago people doing the research in the Middle East realized that the bible was not history.

You complain that some of the dissenters are sitting on their asses and other are out there "digging up evidence". Yes they are and that is how people know that most of the bible is fiction. Looking for astronomical event does not change fiction into anything else. It remains fiction.

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The bible is stated already in this thread, mostly fiction. Genesis has been mentioned. It contains two different creation myths and neither matches the world we see around us. Sure the captivity part appears to be based on real events, but that does not mean or suggest that anything else is correct. The entire exodus story is fiction. Noah's flood never happened. Most of the bible is fiction.

A long time ago people doing the research in the Middle East realized that the bible was not history.

You complain that some of the dissenters are sitting on their asses and other are out there "digging up evidence". Yes they are and that is how people know that most of the bible is fiction. Looking for astronomical event does not change fiction into anything else. It remains fiction.

I'm not complaining, just stating my opinion. You can't be serious. I don't think you have ever studied it Creation ? Hebrew cosmology based on what they knew which was next to nothing. Two versions? same as us. Big bang v Steady state. Their anthropology, God created them. No knowledge of evolution.Their history, Flood ? Nearly every middle east people have a flood tradition. Epic of Gilgamesh is the Babylonian version. Read Noah's Flood by Ryan & Pitman. The real history begins with Abraham. The Exodus never happened ? Well you must have some knowledge that is unknown to anyone else. So have you proof that these events didn't take place ? I don't agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it. Edited by Roybat
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Thinking about the replies to this post. The Bible is fiction, so the Jews have no history yet they manage to keep their identity and language intact. Their traditions are written in their Torah. Forget the New Testament. Then Jewish history begins with Josephus about 70 AD. The Illiad & Odyssey ? Fiction therefore the Greeks have no history although their language has survived thousands of years. Romulus and Remus ? Fiction. Therefore the Romans have no history before Julius Caesar whose writings are still extant. Egyptian history is based on papyri and stone monuments still extant. But their written history is based on Manetho 3rd century BCE. If that is fiction then Egypt has no history before 300 BC. Australia has no history before 1770. America has no history before 1492. England has no history before 55 BCE and that is still in doubt. I or my family have no history before 1548 the earliest ancestor that I can find. Two reasons I can't go beyond that, the official records began 1536 or my ancestors were among those murdered by Henry VIII. I do know that I am a mixture of English,Welsh and Huguenot. Certainly not of pure descent like so many Jews today. So I might as well consider the world as being no more than 74 years old based on my awareness and memory. All that went before is a myth

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2009-12-09-non-prophet-11642f70.jpg

That's great. "They were here I tell you" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you bin smoking that stuff again"
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I think the first time I read that Ezekiel's wheels = UFO, was in a Von Daniken book that I read as a teenager (1980s), and it was an old idea then. I do admit that it very much sounds like a technological device, and not so much a spiritual chariot.

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I think the first time I read that Ezekiel's wheels = UFO, was in a Von Daniken book that I read as a teenager (1980s), and it was an old idea then. I do admit that it very much sounds like a technological device, and not so much a spiritual chariot.

Yes I read it too and did think it as you say. But then the same 4 figures torn up in Daniel without their wheels and again in Revelation. Why do they look like the Egyptian Gods ? If ET came back then and spoke to men why did they stop doing so and possibly now only visit clandestinely taunting us with UFO sightings

Edited by Roybat
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Thinking about the replies to this post. The Bible is fiction, so the Jews have no history yet they manage to keep their identity and language intact. Their traditions are written in their Torah. Forget the New Testament. Then Jewish history begins with Josephus about 70 AD. The Illiad & Odyssey ? Fiction therefore the Greeks have no history although their language has survived thousands of years. Romulus and Remus ? Fiction. Therefore the Romans have no history before Julius Caesar whose writings are still extant. Egyptian history is based on papyri and stone monuments still extant. But their written history is based on Manetho 3rd century BCE. If that is fiction then Egypt has no history before 300 BC. Australia has no history before 1770. America has no history before 1492. England has no history before 55 BCE and that is still in doubt. I or my family have no history before 1548 the earliest ancestor that I can find. Two reasons I can't go beyond that, the official records began 1536 or my ancestors were among those murdered by Henry VIII. I do know that I am a mixture of English,Welsh and Huguenot. Certainly not of pure descent like so many Jews today. So I might as well consider the world as being no more than 74 years old based on my awareness and memory. All that went before is a myth

A nice mix of strawmen arguments but not relevant. We find history in written materials and archaeological discoveries. Books like I & O are myth and legend and are not thought to be historical in nature - certainly the heavy use of gods and goddesses in those stories points to a 'non-historic' poise. All such writing struggles in modern terms with fact vs fiction.

Oh and the Maya were writing long before the Spanish or the Norse showed up.

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The Exodus never happened ? Well you must have some knowledge that is unknown to anyone else. So have you proof that these events didn't take place ? I don't agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it.

In fact, this is the current state of knowledge (and even the Biblical archaeologists hesitantly admit it.) Exodus from Egypt did not take place. The Bible gets king names wrong (some appear to have been invented), get Egyptian names wrong (no Egyptian name given in the Bible actually matches any Egyptian name... and some would not have been possible to spell in hieroglyphs (they didn't have signs for those sounds.) write about camels in an age when there were no camels in Egypt and so on and so forth. There are almost no ancient loan-words from one language to the other (unlike Babylonian where there are linguistic ties.)

There were no Hebrew/Sumerian/Middle East slaves in Egypt - in essence, the entire population were peasant bondservants to Egypt's kings. Criminals and war captives were slaves and were sent to the mines where life was pretty awful and they died quickly. Slaves from the Middle East would come in as captives during the empire building of Thutmoses I to Thutmoses III in the New Kingdom when Egypt's expansion made client kings out of territories to the north and the west but they didn't import them back to Egypt. They stayed where they were and farmed the land for Egypt.

See Wikipedia for the summary of what's known (basically first millennium writers composing a history) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#Historicity

Wikipedia also goes into the implausible numbers, and the fact that the places they stopped did not exist until much later... the article is just a summary.

Yes, you can find people who try to dismiss the archaeological (non)evidence and contrary evidence, but the truth is that it appears to be a foundational inspiration story (like George Washington and the cherry tree or any number of myths about our early American history).

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Thinking about the replies to this post. The Bible is fiction, so the Jews have no history yet they manage to keep their identity and language intact. Their traditions are written in their Torah. Forget the New Testament. Then Jewish history begins with Josephus about 70 AD.

This is outdate. In fact there's written evidence earlier than this.

Fiction therefore the Greeks have no history although their language has survived thousands of years.

Not sure where you're going with this. We have histories from the Greeks as well as books of mathematics, plays (both historical and dramatic) travel, philosophy, and a lot of other things supported by archaeological evidence.

Therefore the Romans have no history before Julius Caesar whose writings are still extant.

This really is a strange argument. You're unaware that Romans were writing and copying books and shipping them to libraries across the known world long before Julius? Or is Julius the only Roman writer you know about?

I'm curious. Really...this is an odd argument.

Egyptian history is based on papyri and stone monuments still extant. But their written history is based on Manetho 3rd century BCE. If that is fiction then Egypt has no history before 300 BC.

It's difficult to know how to answer this when their history is written on temple walls (such as Hatshepsut's voyage to Punt, Thutmoses II's Battle of with the Prince of Mittani (classic military strategy, confirmed by archaeology), Ramesess II's disastrous Battle of Kadesh (and the versions written by the other side... all supported by archaeology), the peace treaties and boundaries in stone (in multiple languages), the letters to and from the royal courts of Akhenaten that talk about troubles in the Levant and beg for help (and the archaeological evidence of the cities being damaged by war during that time) - and more.

I realize that not everyone will stop to try and get a degree in Biblical history or Egyptology, but I find your reasoning odd.

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A nice mix of replies

Oh and the Maya were writing long before the Spanish or the Norse showed up. Yes I know. Or is Julius the only Roman writer you know about? No, Tacitus, Pliny etc.

We have histories from the Greeks as well as books of mathematics, plays (both historical and dramatic) travel, philosophy, and a lot of other things supported by archaeological evidence. Yes.

There were no Hebrew/Sumerian/Middle East slaves in Egypt - in essence, the entire population were peasant bondservants to Egypt's...... Try....http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/sites/dl-pa.home.nyu.edu.awdl/files/admonitionsofegy00gard/admonitionsofegy00gard.pdf

t's difficult to know how to answer this when their history is written on temple walls (such as Hatshepsut's voyage to Punt, Thutmoses II's Battle of with the Prince of Mittani (classic military strategy, confirmed by archaeology), Ramesess II's disastrous Battle of Kadesh (and the versions written by the other side... all supported by archaeology), the peace treaties and boundaries in stone (in multiple languages), the letters to and from the royal courts of Akhenaten that talk about troubles in the Levant and beg for help (and the archaeological evidence of the cities being damaged by war during that time) - and more.

See.....http://www.varchive.org/ce/newev.htm and Ages in Chaos...........

The Bible gets king names wrong. Does it really ? Exodus does not mention Pharoah's name or any Egyptian, creating the problem.

This really is a strange argument.......... Got you thinking and replying though didn't it

Edited by Roybat
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I'm not complaining, just stating my opinion. You can't be serious. I don't think you have ever studied it Creation ? Hebrew cosmology based on what they knew which was next to nothing. Two versions? same as us. Big bang v Steady state. Their anthropology, God created them. No knowledge of evolution.Their history, Flood ? Nearly every middle east people have a flood tradition. Epic of Gilgamesh is the Babylonian version. Read Noah's Flood by Ryan & Pitman. The real history begins with Abraham. The Exodus never happened ? Well you must have some knowledge that is unknown to anyone else. So have you proof that these events didn't take place ? I don't agree with what you say but I respect your right to say it.

Big bang vs steady state? Odd comparison in my opinion. The big bang has replaced the steady state and there is nothing bringing us back to the steady state concept.

I never brought up evolution, nor is it needed to observe that there is an order in which life appears on Earth and neither of the two stories in genesis match the order we see on Earth. It simply means that the bible is fiction.

The existence of flood stories does not in any way suggest that a global flood occurred as stated in the bible. What does the existence of a previous story have to do with the bible being wrong about a global flood? Nothing. The story is still fiction.

Exodus never happened. There is no evidence of a large captive Hebrew population in Egypt. That is well known. There was no large exit of a slave population from Egypt. That is well known. There was no destruction of a large Egyptian army. That is well known. There was no large population living in the Sinai. That is well known. When you suggest I have some knowledge that is unknown to anyone else you should have stated that you have no knowledge of these well known facts. There is zero evidence for exodus ever occurring. It is one of the big fictional events of the bible. Surprised you are unaware of this.

Here is a little hint that there is something wrong with exodus. The pyramids are not mentioned. Yet, the bible does describe the architecture when they were in captivity.

You can start to learn that exodus never happened at the wikipedia and then branch out from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

The archeological evidence does not support the story told in the Book of Exodus[5] and most archaeologists have therefore abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[6] The opinion of the overwhelming majority of modern biblical scholars is that the exodus story was shaped into its final present form in the post-Exilic period,[7] although the traditions behind it are older and can be traced in the writings of the 8th century BCE prophets.
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Thinking about the replies to this post. The Bible is fiction, so the Jews have no history yet they manage to keep their identity and language intact. Their traditions are written in their Torah. Forget the New Testament. Then Jewish history begins with Josephus about 70 AD. The Illiad & Odyssey ? Fiction therefore the Greeks have no history although their language has survived thousands of years. Romulus and Remus ? Fiction. Therefore the Romans have no history before Julius Caesar whose writings are still extant. Egyptian history is based on papyri and stone monuments still extant. But their written history is based on Manetho 3rd century BCE. If that is fiction then Egypt has no history before 300 BC. Australia has no history before 1770. America has no history before 1492. England has no history before 55 BCE and that is still in doubt. I or my family have no history before 1548 the earliest ancestor that I can find. Two reasons I can't go beyond that, the official records began 1536 or my ancestors were among those murdered by Henry VIII. I do know that I am a mixture of English,Welsh and Huguenot. Certainly not of pure descent like so many Jews today. So I might as well consider the world as being no more than 74 years old based on my awareness and memory. All that went before is a myth

Why post such inane ramblings?

Much of the bible is fiction. The bible can be checked against the evidence. It can be checked against the geological evidence. It can be checked against the archaeological evidence. Frankly, I'm not surprised when religious texts do not match reality.

There are lots of reasons for making up stories. Today we call it 'spin'. Much better to be prisoners of the big power at the time than some other less formidable opponent. Picking up a tale from someone else is much easier than writing your own. Whatever the reason it still leaves the stories as fiction.

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