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HMS Ark Royal Sets Off For Final Voyage


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#16    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

View Postskookum, on 20 May 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

The Harriers would have only been a tiny stop gap.  Most of there air miles on their air frames would have been depleted by 2015/16.  Carriers are very hard on aircrafts, they were trying to stretch their life out way before by only placing them on the ships in absolutely vital situations.  The majority of the time they were stored in Gibraltar.  When Iraq kicked off the second time it took ages to get Ark Royal to Gibraltar, loaded and on her way to Iraq.  It kind of defeats the object of having small, light, fast carriers.

The other thing is any half decent air force with half decent modern planes would have run rings round them.  Harriers were often escorted and used in a ground attack role.  Brilliant aircraft but subsonic, rather short range however they had a fairly decent payload (nowhere near the F35B though).  Questions would also have to be asked if they would have been capable of defending the carrier against faster more agile aircraft.  Especially now that relatively cheap, fast, well armed drones are becoming common place.

Obviously not a problem in Iraq or afghanistan.

If Argentina, and their SA allies including Brazil which has an aircraft carrier, invade the Falklands before 2020 there isnt a thing we can do about it.


#17    skookum

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:31 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 20 May 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

If Argentina, and their SA allies including Brazil which has an aircraft carrier, invade the Falklands before 2020 there isnt a thing we can do about it.


The Argies don't have an effective Air force, and I doubt half a dozen old Harriers would be much use against very modern Mirage 2000C the Brazilians have.  

We had a very big air advantage last time due to the newly acquired and upgraded Sidewinder missile.  It took tonnes of negotiations to get them in time from the reluctant yanks.  Even Harrier pilots admitted if they didn't have the latest the story may well have been very different.

We do have a number of Typhoons stationed there just in case and don't forget it took just one ageing Nuclear sub using WW2 torpedoes to sink their flag ship and send their fleet fleeing back to base cutting off re-supply.

Back in the 1980's we had about 20 marines stationed there with no air support. Now we have a substantial garrison about 1200, with modern air support.  We have the Type 45 destroyer and at least one sub on patrol all the time.  

http://en.wikipedia....alkland_Islands

If there is an invasion, it will take a lot more than a fairly badly equipped bunch of conscripts.  A invading force would also have to expect major casualties as islands even fairly lightly defended can be notoriously difficult to take, even if you do you then need re-supply which is a nightmare with subs milling around.

Edited by skookum, 20 May 2013 - 09:58 PM.

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#18    Jessica Christ

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:25 AM

View PostHilander, on 20 May 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

All things must come to an end.

Very sad, hmm.

Reminds me of an interview Julian Fellowes made. He grew up hearing stories how at the turn of the last century the nobility had to let go of their servants and those who later inherited turned the old servants quarters into other types of rooms. The end of an era indeed.

Castles too once had their use but guns made them obsolete. It was all for a short time anyways, from the time iron and weapons advanced in Europe which allowed knights, to the their end, was not a long time.

Germany had around 250 cities in the 1100s and over 2000 in the 1200s. Urbanization, trade, the wide use of minting coins, all made for vast changes especially allowing guilds and specialized products to flourish which included weapons, leather work made in tanning mills, nailed horseshoes, the stirrup, the saddle, all were invented in this era.

Industrialization saw the first iron ships and they won't be around forever either. Huge naval and land battles seem widely obsolete now or rapidly becoming so at any rate.

The era of the Concorde was even more narrow and it was even sadder when the last one flew and landed.

More exciting, is what is next, in this new era of globalization.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 21 May 2013 - 07:29 AM.


#19    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:32 AM

You're looking forward to the new era of globalisation? Are you anticipating that it will mean that there will be no more War, and swords will be beaten into ploughshares?

Edited by Colonel Rhuairidh, 21 May 2013 - 07:36 AM.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#20    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:35 AM

twice, in fact :unsure2:

Edited by Colonel Rhuairidh, 21 May 2013 - 07:35 AM.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#21    Jessica Christ

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:48 AM

War will continue in other forms.


#22    Jessica Christ

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:52 AM

A few episodes of Defense News, specifically the pieces hosted by Vago Muradian, might help you better understand.


Quote

I think there is an imperative to do things differently. It's driven not only by the budget but more importantly by changing operating and strategic environments around the world. We're simply not going to have the luxury of fighting in the same styles that we've become accustomed to. Power projection is getting a lot tougher, anti-acess and area denial threats are growing around the world. We're going to have to change the patterns in which we deploy our forces,, in which we operate, and which we sustain those forces logistically over time.

—Jim Thomas


===============================================================


View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 21 May 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

You're looking forward to the new era of globalisation? Are you anticipating that it will mean that there will be no more War, and swords will be beaten into ploughshares?

What is your view of globalization? Do you think it is a threat? Or do you hold a more sophisticated and realistic view?

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 21 May 2013 - 07:57 AM.


#23    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 21 May 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:



What is your view of globalization? Do you think it is a threat? Or do you hold a more sophisticated and realistic view?
Depends what you mean by Globalisation. if it means what evangelists for unrestrained Capitalism mean, where the multinational megacorporations have an unlimited pool of cheap labour to exploit, then yes, it is, but if we're talking about One World Government and all those things that Conspiracy theorists are so paranoid about, then frankly I don't think it need necessarily be altogether a bad thing, given the incompetence of most national governments and their endless silly squabbling.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#24    Jessica Christ

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:12 AM

Globalization is simply a one world government, we will decide how it is shaped.

First we had tribes, then clans, then kingdoms, followed by empires, somewhere along we also had city-states, then nation-states, supranational unions (EU is the first example) will be the next stage, then finally a one world government.

Each stage feels the next is a threat and a loss of freedom. Well history moves in one direction.

Too many are afraid, but it is understandable, which is why internationalists move slowly and quietly.


#25    dekker87

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 21 May 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Globalization is simply a one world government, we will decide how it is shaped.

First we had tribes, then clans, then kingdoms, followed by empires, somewhere along we also had city-states, then nation-states, supranational unions (EU is the first example) will be the next stage, then finally a one world government.

Each stage feels the next is a threat and a loss of freedom. Well history moves in one direction.

Too many are afraid, but it is understandable, which is why internationalists move slowly and quietly.

Quote

history moves in one direction.

nonsense. ever been to the congo?

a load of pseudo-intellectual tosh.


#26    Jessica Christ

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:59 AM

View Postdekker87, on 21 May 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

nonsense. ever been to the congo?

a load of pseudo-intellectual tosh.

?

The Congo will change in due time. People there with the right tools will live lives just like us.

Geopolitical forces have manipulated their environment. As the context changes so will their lives and ways of living.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 21 May 2013 - 11:07 AM.


#27    dekker87

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 21 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

?

The Congo will change in due time. People there with the right tools will live lives just like us.

Geopolitical forces have manipulated their environment. As the context changes so will their lives and ways of living.

quite obviously missed the point of what i'm saying.

the congo is regressing.....infrastructure has broken down..people are LESS educated than they were...etc etc etc....ie history doesn't necessarily move in one direction...

same can be said for afghanistan, sierra leone, liberia....to name but 3 off the top of my head.





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