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The U.S Army Draft


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#1    Lottie

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:42 PM

The U.S Army Draft: Right or Wrong?

PadawanOsswe will be debating that it's right.
RamboIII will be debating that the U.S Army Draft is wrong.

This will be a 1v1 formal debate.
An Introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion from each participant. No Flaming, bad manners or profantities will be tolerated.

Please be aware that:

There is a point deduction for debaters who fail to make a post within the 7 day time frame. The deductions will be 2 points for every day the participant fails to post after the 7 days.

This is to ensure that debates continue in a timely fashion. If for any reason you cannot post within the 7 days, please ensure that you let myself, Aztec or tiddlyjen know to avoid having the points taken off your debate.

If, however the participant does not then attempt to make a post for upto 2 weeks after the 7 day rule has started an immediate disqualification will occur.

Good Luck, Lottie.

Edited by AztecInca, 26 June 2006 - 01:35 AM.


#2    PadawanOsswe

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 01:33 AM

Introduction

I am not going to debate wether the draft is right, or wether it is wrong. I'am here to debate that in my opinion it is neccessary sometimes to initiate the draft. I shall explain more on my opinions in my future posts.



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#3    PadawanOsswe

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 04:18 AM

post 1

Why I believe the draft to be necessary is for the safety of ones nation. In this case The United States.  What if the U.S. Military could not get enough Enlistee's? Then what else are they to do other than initiate a draft?

Failure to initiate the draft in this case would be a National security problem. In the past we lived in dangerous times, and in the modern world we still live in dangerous times, hence why a decently trained and armed military is essential.

The issue of a draft and mandatory service has always been a touchy subject. But if one really looks at both mandatory service and the draft, they are not the same thing. The draft is random.  The young men selected at the draft rolls are completely random. So while that young man may be in the military now not of his own free will, at least itís not all of the young men of the nation. Where as Mandatory Service is not at random and calls for ALL able bodied men/woman of a certain age to be immediately conscripted.

Is it fair? Is it right? I think the real question to ask here is whether we must occasionally  do what many would deem as terrible and possibly inhumane  for the greater good.


This is why the draft or mandatory service is always a last resort option for people would be outraged and many would hate to do this to innocent citizens.  But that is what options are there for. Options are not there just to look pretty on paper.   They are there to give one a sense of what they could do for the safety and well being of their nation.  That is why while it is a last resort option, it is still never the less, an option.


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#4    RamboIII

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 09:39 PM

If it is okay, I will go against it but I am in two debates already. But if you will allow it, I will do my best to keep up!


#5    PadawanOsswe

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 05:19 PM

I will continue my debate

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#6    RamboIII

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 10:36 PM

Intro:

Then I am here to explain why we should NEVER initiate the draft. It is against the morality of america, whether it be unjust by breaking up loved ones, causing a ineffective army, and forcing 2+ years of military service.
The draft is also a direct attack on america's economy. It corrupts America's income by stealing away the potential intelligence of future poilitics and high payed jobs (such as oil companies). It will also ruin what money we have now by wasting millions of dollars on supplying free military service for many young men.
I will explain more later, good luck! thumbsup.gif

Edited by RamboIII, 24 May 2006 - 02:37 AM.


#7    AztecInca

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 01:15 AM

Edit: I have tidied up this debate so that it easier to understand.

RamboIII you should have posted an Introduction and then your first bodily post. You may go back and edit your first post changing it to an Into and you can copy your first bodily post and post it after your Intro. As Padwan has done both, you are meant to also do both before he can post his next bodily post.


#8    RamboIII

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 02:37 AM

Post One

Quote

What if the U.S. Military could not get enough Enlistee's? Then what else are they to do other than initiate a draft?


Here's a start: Don't Begin War! But now, as we can not alter the fact that we are already in a war, look to the past. We lost a war because of the draft. The War in Vietnam's action came to a halt because protests in America were too strong-the protests, that went directly against America's draft.
History Repeats itself.

Quote

Failure to initiate the draft in this case would be a National security problem. In the past we lived in dangerous times, and in the modern world we still live in dangerous times, hence why a decently trained and armed military is essential.


No, no, no. A draft will only create a miserable army that is not decent because their heart is not in it. Besides, you're thinking of things like the FBI, the public police, etc.. Not having a good military means we will lose wars, not have buildings blown up.
Let me say, an army of strong volunteers beats an army of those not willing to fight anyday. My example, the Texas revolution. The will to win beats no will at all.

Quote

The draft is random. The young men selected at the draft rolls are completely random. So while that young man may be in the military now not of his own free will, at least itís not all of the young men of the nation. Where as Mandatory Service is not at random and calls for ALL able bodied men/woman of a certain age to be immediately conscripted.


Yeah, great idea! Let's make a harvard student with no muscle mass and no past athletic experience join the army just to be "fair". Here's something that's fair: Have the government make better decisions so we need not to even speak of war. The mistake of a draft would be bad enough. Making it "random" makes it no more fair than having everyone in the country go. Besides, a mandatory service will exclude those with a bright future, where as the draft does not. So, the draft will kill the country's economy because it steals all the intelligence or it may steal all the stregnth.
OR, on the other hand we can have those who wanted to go to army anyway go to the army, because they don't have any other future. It is in the best interests of the economy, certainly- don't make me remind you exactly how much in debt we are...


Quote

Is it fair? Is it right? I think the real question to ask here is whether we must occasionally do what many would deem as terrible and possibly inhumane for the greater good.


Right there, that is it. Us, the citizens, also the majority of the american population, oppose the draft, finding it "inhumane". That is the spark to riots. One more thing, riots are very, very expensive. And with hate generating in our country- Civil War II even, maybe- our UN status will greatly drop.

Quote

This is why the draft or mandatory service is always a last resort option for people would be outraged and many would hate to do this to innocent citizens. But that is what options are there for. Options are not there just to look pretty on paper. They are there to give one a sense of what they could do for the safety and well being of their nation. That is why while it is a last resort option, it is still never the less, an option.


First a necessity, now a LAST RESORT?!?
Yes, the draft is a great option...in a nuclear holocaust... America is by the people, for the people, thus we should decide on if we feel it is within the best interests of our country, ourselves, and our people for us to join the army. We can make that choice, and the world as it is now, is much better than life during Vietnam. Through all fairness to the American citizens, to our economy, and to our status, do not make one of history's worst mistakes and reinstate the draft..

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#9    PadawanOsswe

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 02:01 AM

Post 2

Quote


Post One
Here's a start: Don't Begin War!


war is sometimes unavoidable.

Quote


Let me say, an army of strong volunteers beats an army of those not willing to fight anyday.


that is true, allthough manpower is still a factor. a volounteer could die just as easilly as a draftee.

and even if a draftee is unwilling to fight, war comes down to one thing. You kill or be killed.

Quote


Yeah, great idea! Let's make a harvard student with no muscle mass and no past athletic experience join the army just to be "fair".


Athletic background is not a problem a couple months of boot camp fixes that right up, but the draft is the most fair it can possibly get. its like a lottery, numbers are chosen at randomn and if they just so happen to be your numbers then dont blame the government, blame the laws of probability.


Quote


Here's something that's fair: Have the government make better decisions so we need not to even speak of war.


Because diplomacy will allways work! what about the enemies out there that could care less about diplomacy? What happens when diplomacy fails?

Quote


The mistake of a draft would be bad enough. Making it "random" makes it no more fair than having everyone in the country go. Besides, a mandatory service will exclude those with a bright future, where as the draft does not.


so because you have the possibility of getting drafted, that is as bad as having to go to war? so all american males that are 18 or above still living in the U.S. have to sleep in trenches, eat bad food, and get shot at?

and here I was thinking that that only happend if you are drafted.

no, a draft does not affect all americans the way the trenches affect people, ide also like to note that women are excluded from the draft.

As for people with bright futures, the smart are the ones who have the better chances of survival in war.  and I belive draftee's still have the option of Conscientious Objector.

QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 23 2006, 08:37 PM) View Post

So, the draft will kill the country's economy because it steals all the intelligence or it may steal all the stregnth.


Economy, war helps the economy usually. however there is no garauntee that a draft will take your brightest. it is after all, at randomn.

QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 23 2006, 08:37 PM) View Post

Right there, that is it. Us, the citizens, also the majority of the american population, oppose the draft, finding it "inhumane".


It may be inhumane, but if it comes down to a manpower drain it is what has to be done. Sometimes we have to give up our own wish's and dreams for the greater good.

QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 23 2006, 08:37 PM) View Post

First a necessity, now a LAST RESORT?!?


you miss-quote me, I said "it is neccessary sometimes to initiate the draft."

QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 23 2006, 08:37 PM) View Post

Yes, the draft is a great option...in a nuclear holocaust... America is by the people, for the people, thus we should decide on if we feel it is within the best interests of our country, ourselves, and our people for us to join the army.


if people and citizens decided everything, there would be no laws and there would be no order. that's why we have politicians to be the parents of the nation. the citizens can offer ideas, but ultimatly its the Politician's that will decide what is best.

reason for this is because common citizens only think about how something like a draft affects themselves. Us Americans are generally very self-centered. so taking into account the benefit of the nation that a draft could bring is not thought of.  

the benefit, survival of our western lifestyle.

"Ask not what your country can do for you,but what you can do for your country."- John F. Kennedy

QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 23 2006, 08:37 PM) View Post

do not make one of history's worst mistakes and reinstate the draft..


The draft may have lost Vietnam. but it won The U.S. Civil War.





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#10    RamboIII

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 05:04 AM

Well, let's start this...

Quote

war is sometimes unavoidable.


Was Iraq? No...

Quote

that is true, allthough manpower is still a factor. a volounteer could die just as easilly as a draftee.


No, that is where you are wrong. A satan worshipping useless sole may be drafted into the war and immediately stand infront of an enemy bullet, whereas a passionate volunteer may focus on the tactics to get him through.

Quote

Athletic background is not a problem a couple months of boot camp fixes that right up, but the draft is the most fair it can possibly get. its like a lottery, numbers are chosen at randomn and if they just so happen to be your numbers then dont blame the government, blame the laws of probability.


Should that be how our future is determined? NO! The fact that laws of probability just happened to pick the worst people for the job should not be the reason that the United States gets defeated.

Quote

Because diplomacy will allways work! what about the enemies out there that could care less about diplomacy? What happens when diplomacy fails?


Those enemies would care about diplomacy, had we not invaded their country for no real reason.

Quote

As for people with bright futures, the smart are the ones who have the better chances of survival in war.


So instead of producing income, they must use their intelligence to survive?
Why can't we use our gifts to better our own lives? If we want to go to war, let's go to war! But otherwise, we should follow our hearts.

QUOTE
Economy, war helps the economy usually. however there is no garauntee that a draft will take your brightest. it is after all, at randomn.


One word: Iraq.

QUOTE
if people and citizens decided everything, there would be no laws and there would be no order. that's why we have politicians to be the parents of the nation. the citizens can offer ideas, but ultimatly its the Politician's that will decide what is best.


But that doesn't mean that they should be able to potentially kill us?  So our children's lives should be put in the hands of politicians and probability? What about the greater good of our beliefs?

QUOTE
It may be inhumane, but if it comes down to a manpower drain it is what has to be done.


Stop, right there. In no time should inhumane behavior be tolerated. Inhumane acts lead to protests which, in turn lead to the corruption of economy which, then leads to the loss of wars.

QUOTE
The draft may have lost Vietnam. but it won The U.S. Civil War.


How do you know we won the civil war? America lost the civil war, and won it. But besides, times were different then, General Sherman burned entire cities and plantations for hundreds of miles... The code of conduct in a civil war is much different. The most culturally similar time when we had the draft instated was vietnam, thus protests should be similar.

Well, post on.


#11    PadawanOsswe

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Posted 03 June 2006 - 05:47 AM

Post 3

Quote


Was Iraq? No...


So would you rather the people of Iraq still live under a raping, murdering,dictator?......thats nice.

Quote


No, that is where you are wrong. A satan worshipping useless sole may be drafted into the war and immediately stand infront of an enemy bullet, whereas a passionate volunteer may focus on the tactics to get him through.


if a "useless satan worshiping soul" wants to be suicidal while getting shot at instead of getting down, following orders, and returning fire, not my problem.

Quote


Should that be how our future is determined? NO! The fact that laws of probability just happened to pick the worst people for the job should not be the reason that the United States gets defeated.


maybe laws of probability should not determine our future,but that would only happen in a perfect universe. Thats life! and nothing is fair in life. there are hardships and goodtimes. and a drafting is just another hardship.


Quote


Those enemies would care about diplomacy, had we not invaded their country for no real reason.


did I say Iraq in that post? no

I asked a question specifically about what do we do when an enemy of the U.S. is not interested in talks. the bottomline bieng, What do we do when diplomacy fails?
please dont dodge the question this time.

Quote


So instead of producing income, they must use their intelligence to survive?
Why can't we use our gifts to better our own lives? If we want to go to war, let's go to war! But otherwise, we should follow our hearts.


Yes, everyone in this world has to use their wits and knowledge to survive in life, war is no different. Eccept that you have a rifle in addition to your intelligence and wits. and who said war cant better your own life? fighting to preserve freedom is a good thing. it pay's off to help others, which will it be? Selfish or Selfless?




QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 26 2006, 11:04 PM) View Post

But that doesn't mean that they should be able to potentially kill us? So our children's lives should be put in the hands of politicians and probability? What about the greater good of our beliefs?


A draft does not kill you, an enemy does. Wether humanity's future should be decided by man or by probability is a good question, our fates are almost allways decided by probability. But also should man decide our childrens fate's? This is not the question to be asking. Its not "should they" but "do they have to?". Desperate times call for desperate actions, and in a bad situation that threatens your major allies or your nation itself. The Government will act on a basic human instinct....survival. Therefore if questions are asked by the public, they will not be answered. You get drafted, the gov. has to operate on survival mode, which means "I dont care about your feelings or dreams, if you are fit for service then man a post". And while this tempoary ideology of the government is against basic human rights, still the fact of the matter is that morality and war were not made to be together.

But in the end this temporary stage usually ends up good in the long run. Hence protecting your values and beliefs you hold dear.

QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 26 2006, 11:04 PM) View Post

Stop, right there. In no time should inhumane behavior be tolerated. Inhumane acts lead to protests which, in turn lead to the corruption of economy which, then leads to the loss of wars.


In some cases it has to be tolerated when there are no other options. As for protests, while protests may cause some damage to the economy still there are ways to gain that money back. now if you are thinking that protest's ruin wars, look at Vietnam, the reason's we lost Vietnam was for 2 major reasons. #1: We ended the North Vietnam bombing campaign which was going along very well other than the bombing of The Ho Chi Minh Trail (kind of hard to destroy a dirt road). and #2: We never made an invasion of North Vietnam. which would in theory have badly broken the will of the Communist Fighters to take South Vietnam.


QUOTE(RamboIII @ May 26 2006, 11:04 PM) View Post

How do you know we won the civil war? America lost the civil war, and won it. But besides, times were different then, General Sherman burned entire cities and plantations for hundreds of miles... The code of conduct in a civil war is much different. The most culturally similar time when we had the draft instated was vietnam, thus protests should be similar.


The Union is still together...is it not? Code of Conduct, again... Morality in war is an oxymoron









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#12    RamboIII

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 05:09 PM

Quote

So would you rather the people of Iraq still live under a raping, murdering,dictator?......thats nice.


That's not the point. America did not enter the war to stop that. Well, that's what we're saying now but that was not the intended reason. Things like raping, murdering, discrimination, etc. are happening throughout our own country so why would we put Iraq infront of ourselves? Those things also happen to those who get drafted. Trust me, I've seen it happen. Those who are away from the real world for so long build their sexual desires to desperate points. Fights break out over these things resulting in raping and sometimes even murdering (and suicide) unsure.gif

Quote

if a "useless satan worshiping soul" wants to be suicidal while getting shot at instead of getting down, following orders, and returning fire, not my problem.


But it is your problem, because it could be these same people who hold the fate of the United States in their hands... no.gif  So, they can either face proper rehabilitation in America or face their superiors in war yell at them, an inch away from their faces- making suicide a much more glorious option.

Quote

maybe laws of probability should not determine our future,but that would only happen in a perfect universe. Thats life! and nothing is fair in life. there are hardships and goodtimes. and a drafting is just another hardship.


But it isn't even necessary!!! Is this "life" you speak of really so unfair that millions of women will suffer because the laws of probability picked the worst possible candidates? Is it so unfair that thousands of young men will have to die for something they may not even believe in? Is it so unfair that one of it's many "hardships" in such an early age can be death itself?
How dare you call the draft just another hardship... People die because of the draft and, if you want to go to war I fully support your decision- I've been their myself- but most young men in America would disagree. Many young men will die because of the draft. The draft is not just another "hardship", it is hell.

Quote

did I say Iraq in that post? no

I asked a question specifically about what do we do when an enemy of the U.S. is not interested in talks. the bottomline bieng, What do we do when diplomacy fails?
please dont dodge the question this time.


The thing is, we are in a war right now. The war in Iraq is the reason why we are debating this right now. So I think it is perfectly adequate to mention Iraq in this debate.
We have enough manpower to get the job done, if diplomacy fails. If times seem to get rough then do what every American will do to get their point across: Advertise. That is what the US army is doing right now and the increase of advertisements will result in the increase of military units, thus making the draft unnecessary.
But who days diplomacy will fail? Almost every country is the the United Nations. In that case, a global vote should help at least come to a compromise. Under better leadership, America will not only have no reason for a draft, but no reason for war at all. Follow the UN's peacekeeping morals and diplomacy will be immortal.

Quote

fighting to preserve freedom is a good thing.


That's not what war is anymore. Sure, maybe the revolutionary war and the civil war were to preserve freedom but in modern times America has guaranteed freedom 100% of the time as long as we stay away from war. We are now fighting for other people's freedom when they don't even want our help. So we could be putting our men in Iraq (just an example) to fight for their freedom when our men don't even have the slightest amount of compassion. We could start a war for oil and instate the draft, putting America's youth in war to allow rappers to drive escalades, and rich old ladies to drive monstrous SUVs. Now that just doesn't sound right, does it?

QUOTE
Selfish or Selfless?


Hate to say it, but most people would say selfish. We would prefer to preserve our own lives rather than free some country we don't care about. I'm not saying that the spread of democracy is wrong, just that it is unnecessary to put our youth through the draft (remember, murdering and raping) and killing them in battle for other's freedom.

QUOTE
A draft does not kill you, an enemy does.


The draft puts you out in the middle of war rather than on your couch back at home.

QUOTE
Desperate times call for desperate actions, and in a bad situation that threatens your major allies or your nation itself.


But the draft is not necessary! The army can search around large cities and see if strong young men want to join the army. Why put probability to decide out fate when their are so many other ways? Heads, we win; tails, we are all dead. You have not taken into account everyone in america who will suffer do to the draft. Two soulmates will be split up, widows will be created, children will have no fathers, etc. Then, when the war is lost, what will America be? After all we have been through, we would give it up for one lousy decision.

QUOTE
morality and war were not made to be together.


What do you seek through war? Morality. What is the best way to achieve morality? Morality. So why do we have war again? Oh, yes, America has forgotten about one little thing: The United Nations Peacekeeping Organization. Of course morality and war were not meant to be together, but look at the civil prespective.
Do we follow any forms of morality being so unfair to our youth? No. So we must have morality towards ourselves in order to achieve victory in war. In other words, there should not be a draft.

QUOTE
As for protests, while protests may cause some damage to the economy still there are ways to gain that money back.


Well, judging by the fact that we are in no position to lose anymore money, I find that a very useless argument at this point.

QUOTE
now if you are thinking that protest's ruin wars, look at Vietnam, the reason's we lost Vietnam was for 2 major reasons. #1: We ended the North Vietnam bombing campaign which was going along very well other than the bombing of The Ho Chi Minh Trail (kind of hard to destroy a dirt road). and #2: We never made an invasion of North Vietnam. which would in theory have badly broken the will of the Communist Fighters to take South Vietnam.


Protests did ruin this war. We would have pursued through and done those things that we never accopmplished. However, the money that the protests were costing, and the actual points they made woke America up.
Had we have done these things earlier, yes, the protests would have not been to hard on America. But look at what is happening right now. We are already protesting the war, now we are contemplating whether or not to have a draft?!? Talk about ruining the economy!

QUOTE
The Union is still together...is it not? Code of Conduct, again... Morality in war is an oxymoron


There are certain things that we must always keep in mind in wars,  things that make it so that wars do not ruin the world- things like not allowing nuclear weapons. So their is some conduct in the war. The Union is not what it was, it is now restored as The United States of America once again. But as I said before the most culturally similar time when we had the draft was Vietnam, but as I have mentioned several times, a modern-day draft will be multiple times more dangerous to economy, morality, and success.


#13    AztecInca

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:27 AM

PadawanOsswe the 7 day time-limit for you to post has passed. Please pm either myself or tiddlyjen if you are unable to post or require an extension. If you do not do so point deductions will have to be made.


#14    AztecInca

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 03:40 AM

Padwan's time-limit to post has well and trully passed but as both participants have done their introductions and three bodily posts I will hand this over to the judges to judge on what has been done so far.




#15    __Kratos__

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 09:21 AM

Debater 1: PadawanOsswe

Relevancy: 8
Countering: 6
Style: 6
Persuasiveness: 5
Total: 25

Debater 2: RamboIII

Relevancy: 7
Countering: 7
Style: 7
Persuasiveness: 6
Total: 27

Nice debate by the both of you. Padawan you could use some more research on the areas of Vietnam as in military operations. Rambo you strayed a little from topic but mainly stayed on course. I hope to see both of you in the future.  thumbsup.gif

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." ~Philip K. Dick

"Passion, peace. Strength, knowledge. Power, serenity. Victory, harmony. Freedom, the Force." ~Ashara Zavros




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