179 replies to this topic

[Parsip]

KoS: No. I only told you what being a Muslim requires. If you drink alcohol, don't fast during Ramadan, and don't do the obligatory prayers, then you're not a Muslim. Islam is both belief and action. What's the point of admitting to being a sinner if you don't cease sinning and repent for your actions? You don't get to change Muhammad's words. He said some things are forbidden, and others are obligatory. To claim what's haram is permissible and what's wajib is unnecessary in Islam is bidah/innovation, and you know what Islam thinks of that...

Quote

Religious innovation means inventing a new way of worshipping God that was not originally included in the message that Islamic tradition claims was revealed to Muhammad and opposes established forms. There is much criticism of bid‘ah in the Qur'an and Sunnah, according to Sunni Islam, with Muhammad, his companions, and predecessors all warning against innovation and its people - particularly the four Sunni Imams, Abū Ḥanīfa, Malik ibn Anas, Muhammad ibn Idris ash-Shafi`i, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal.

Muhammad said:

    He who innovates or gives protection to an innovator, there is a curse of Allah and that of His angels and that of the whole humanity upon him.
    —Muhammad, Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 9: The Book of Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq)[8]

    So whoever innovates in it an heresy (something new in religion) or commits a crime in it or gives shelter to such an innovator, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people,...
    —Muhammad, Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 80: Laws of Inheritance (Al-Faraa'id)[9]

`Abd Allah ibn `Umar said: "Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people see it as something good.[10]"

Ibn 'Abbaas also said: "Indeed the most detestable of things to Allaah are the innovations."[11]

Sufyan Al-Thawri mentions: "Innovation is more beloved to Iblees than sin, since a sin may be repented from but innovation is not repented from[12]" and "Whoever listens to an innovator has left the protection of Allaah and is entrusted with the innovation[13]".

Al-Fudayl bin 'Iyaad mentions: "I met the best of people, all of them people of the Sunnah and they used to forbid from accompanying the people of innovation[14]".

Hasan al-Basri mentions: "Do not sit with the people of innovation and desires, nor argue with them, nor listen to them".[15]

Ibraaheem ibn Maysarah mentions: "Whoever honours an innovator has aided in the destruction of Islaam."[16]

Edited by Parsip, 01 May 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Knight Of Shadows]

not really leaving obligatory and doing forbidden things doesn't make you non-muslim
do you not see what i post ? what makes you muslim only few words " i acknowledge that there's no god but allah and i acknowledge that muhmmad is his prophet "
these words makes a person muslim and the belief of few things i mentioned above
i can see why you're so upset and trying to find void point to make it look like am not .. but to your bad luck you're not doing great job
you think muslims don't sin ? hell even adam sinned
you think muslims are angels ? no one is bound from making mistakes in their life .. except mohammad coz he was prophet
have you not heard of hadith that speaks of one woman who worshiped god day and night .. and she'll go to hell coz she trapped a cat in her house till starved to death ?
now how come did she .. she was perfect muslim in your own twisted logic .. still in hadith it said she's going to hell
and haven't you heard of another hadith of the woman who was comitting adultry all her life .. and she went to heaven by giving a dog water to drink ?
now from your own logic too how come did that happen ? she wasn't " REAL " muslim as your flawed logic suppose

see .. i really think  your argument is weak coz you try to base it on personal level with me
not that i can't take that .. it's just you're terriably bad at it and failure to make a good point

am not sure what you want me on commenting on those Quran trasnaltions that say about inventing new religion
since obviously believeing in allah and mohammad and the other prophets and holy books and etc etc is what makes you muslim

and another flawed logic of yours .. haj is not duty on all muslims .. only those who can offered it
seriously i can go on forever picking mistakes after you and not be finished this is halirious i think you should drop it
and stop deciding what people are and what people aren't ... personally i think your whole middle east claim and story you said just lie
to make people sympathy with you and agree with you .. but i won't agree on something wrong coz of that .. sorry see ya

[odas]

and then, on 27 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Apparently the truth touches a nerve with you huh Odas? I notice you did not refute what I said, just deflected with an ad hominem.  But since you bring it up, of course I believe I worship the one true God.  Why would I do otherwise?  Jesus said He was "the way, the truth and the life and that NO MAN could come to the Father but by Him"  so yes I believe the Christian view is the only right way.  But I understand that there are many who do not believe in this way...most, in fact.  And I'm perfectly okay with their disbelief as long as it's a freely made choice.  You make it seem like the choice is a childish one and I think it is the single most critical choice a person makes in their lifetime.  I wish you well.

What and whose truth? Yours? Dont make me laugh. The christianity that You follow is nothing else then a bad copy of romanogreek mythology. Has nothing to do with Jesus Gods teachings. You pray to idols, other gods speak saints, worship the men in red, seek refuge of you own sins in Jesus death. Noone, but noone has done more wrong to Jesus then christians like you.

[RavenHawk]

Knight Of Shadows, on 30 April 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

ohh i think he got it all wrong coz the whole topic was about the anti-christ .. when you assume anti-christ is different person then you get all wrong

Because the *topic* was in part, on the anti Christ doesn’t mean he got everything wrong.

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and for jesus speaks of love ... i know that's why they used to burn witches and make crusades to seize lands and kill people in name of jesus .. i get that

Well, if you’re going to lump all of that together, who can argue.  If you want to argue from a stand point of intelligence then we need to examine each one.  First with Christianity, you need to separate the faith from the Church (one can’t really do that with Islam).  The Faith of Christ is love.  Where Christ failed was allowing the Catholic Church to rise up.  Burning witches and killing people in the name of Jesus was out of fear and ignorance and a power grab for the Church.  That isn’t the teachings of Christ and neither did it have anything to do with him.  So perhaps he didn’t fail.  He knew this was going to happen but we needed to learn it for ourselves.  As far as the Crusades went, many were justified and those that weren’t were usually against other Christians.

But we all know that Islam never did any of that.  After all, what is the penalty for being a non believer?  There are a lot of atrocities made in the name of Allah too.  The Church no longer calls for the death penalty for prostitution or apostasy.  Can you say that of Islam?  The History of Christianity is not perfect and there were many atrocities performed in its name and many things that were justified.  I freely admit that.  I never hear Muslims admit to the atrocities and dishonesty performed in the name of Islam.  Even when presented with many examples, like I have in the recent past.

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and for your last part no one said anything about forcing .. they can be still christians but doesn't mean they'll end up in heaven .. at least that's what the prophcy says

It’s all in delivery.  It does mean to force or die.  And you do prove that by saying that Christians won’t go to Heaven.  It is definitely coercion.  Now this brings up two points that I should mention.

When Ali became Caliph, it was his opinion that Islam was only for Arabs but after his death it spread throughout North Africa, Turkey, and Persia.  It spread by proselytizing and by the sword.  Not so much of convert or die, but by dominating the locals and then making life so difficult for them that it was better to convert.  That is forcing.  And it’s not so much the forcing part as it is the arrogance.  I know the Church can be arrogant but it doesn’t hold a candle to Islam.

But to be fair.  Europe under Charlemagne was forced to convert from Pagan to Christianity.  He took a lesson right out of the Muslim playbook, from just a hundred years prior.  Now the thing is, is that I believe these initial conquests were for the best.  It unified the Middle East and Europe under their prospective cultures.  But since then, conversion by either side has been less than stellar.  The la Reconquista was good but the Inquisition and the treatment toward the Maya and other tribes was horrendous.

The thing is that the Church is no longer in the business to convert by force, whereas Islam still has its marching orders.  If you are not Muslim, then you aren’t going to Heaven.  But this gets to the core of Mohammed’s error.  Mohammed believed that Christianity was a corruption.  That Jesus is not Divine, yet still remains as a major prophet??  But if he failed bringing the message, he would be a false prophet.  Are not false prophets put to death?  That sounds like someone that doesn’t understand the advanced concept of the Trinity.

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imagine if your god came to life .. and told you your religion is wrong and you kept on following it that won't sit well with him :Dnot me though am alright with it
actually i don't care

In the first place, the thought is absurd.  Yeah, I’m sure Christians have asked that question to themselves.  But for most, by questioning one’s faith usually makes it stronger.  That statement (Jesus saying Christianity is wrong) will never happen.  Mohammed just didn’t understand the Trinity, nor what Allah was telling him about it.  Jesus being GOD incarnate is the core concept in Christianity.  This would be more than just a corruption of scripture.  It would be a major disaster.  It would be such a disaster that its followers would figure it out quickly in good order.  Christianity would cease to work.  But it has been going strong for some 2000 years.  That tells me that it is a legitimate religion and its precepts are not wrong.  As you once said, what is easier to believe, an honest prophet that misunderstood something and the Christian expression of faith by a billion souls or that Christianity is wrong?  No prophet is infailable.

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however i never said they'll be forced can you stop assuming things and make it look like i said them  ?

It’s not what you said.  It’s what the Quran says.

[odas]

RavenHawk, on 01 May 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Because the *topic* was in part, on the anti Christ doesn’t mean he got everything wrong.


Well, if you’re going to lump all of that together, who can argue.  If you want to argue from a stand point of intelligence then we need to examine each one.  First with Christianity, you need to separate the faith from the Church (one can’t really do that with Islam).  The Faith of Christ is love.  Where Christ failed was allowing the Catholic Church to rise up.  Burning witches and killing people in the name of Jesus was out of fear and ignorance and a power grab for the Church.  That isn’t the teachings of Christ and neither did it have anything to do with him.  So perhaps he didn’t fail.  He knew this was going to happen but we needed to learn it for ourselves.  As far as the Crusades went, many were justified and those that weren’t were usually against other Christians.

But we all know that Islam never did any of that.  After all, what is the penalty for being a non believer?  There are a lot of atrocities made in the name of Allah too.  The Church no longer calls for the death penalty for prostitution or apostasy.  Can you say that of Islam?  The History of Christianity is not perfect and there were many atrocities performed in its name and many things that were justified.  I freely admit that.  I never hear Muslims admit to the atrocities and dishonesty performed in the name of Islam.  Even when presented with many examples, like I have in the recent past.


It’s all in delivery.  It does mean to force or die.  And you do prove that by saying that Christians won’t go to Heaven.  It is definitely coercion.  Now this brings up two points that I should mention.

When Ali became Caliph, it was his opinion that Islam was only for Arabs but after his death it spread throughout North Africa, Turkey, and Persia.  It spread by proselytizing and by the sword.  Not so much of convert or die, but by dominating the locals and then making life so difficult for them that it was better to convert.  That is forcing.  And it’s not so much the forcing part as it is the arrogance.  I know the Church can be arrogant but it doesn’t hold a candle to Islam.

But to be fair.  Europe under Charlemagne was forced to convert from Pagan to Christianity.  He took a lesson right out of the Muslim playbook, from just a hundred years prior.  Now the thing is, is that I believe these initial conquests were for the best.  It unified the Middle East and Europe under their prospective cultures.  But since then, conversion by either side has been less than stellar.  The la Reconquista was good but the Inquisition and the treatment toward the Maya and other tribes was horrendous.

The thing is that the Church is no longer in the business to convert by force, whereas Islam still has its marching orders.  If you are not Muslim, then you aren’t going to Heaven.  But this gets to the core of Mohammed’s error.  Mohammed believed that Christianity was a corruption.  That Jesus is not Divine, yet still remains as a major prophet??  But if he failed bringing the message, he would be a false prophet.  Are not false prophets put to death?  That sounds like someone that doesn’t understand the advanced concept of the Trinity.


In the first place, the thought is absurd.  Yeah, I’m sure Christians have asked that question to themselves.  But for most, by questioning one’s faith usually makes it stronger.  That statement (Jesus saying Christianity is wrong) will never happen.  Mohammed just didn’t understand the Trinity, nor what Allah was telling him about it.  Jesus being GOD incarnate is the core concept in Christianity.  This would be more than just a corruption of scripture.  It would be a major disaster.  It would be such a disaster that its followers would figure it out quickly in good order.  Christianity would cease to work.  But it has been going strong for some 2000 years.  That tells me that it is a legitimate religion and its precepts are not wrong.  As you once said, what is easier to believe, an honest prophet that misunderstood something and the Christian expression of faith by a billion souls or that Christianity is wrong?  No prophet is infailable.


It’s not what you said.  It’s what the Quran says.

Trinity. Hm. So god impregnant mary to give birth to himself. One could argue that this was a reverse incest. Why does a god need a earhly mother? Seems very familiar when reading roman or greek mythologie.
Anyways,  
If you had understood the meaning of Gods word thru the Quran you would not make ignorant claims. What christians or jews believe according to their scriptures is theirs and they are right in that believe. But so are muslims in their believe.
As shown on my couple of last posts I could be ignorant and rant against everything and even provide proof.......but, realy, where is the point to argue about religion, music or food?

[Knight Of Shadows]

first thing

RavenHawk, on 01 May 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Because the *topic* was in part, on the anti Christ doesn’t mean he got everything wrong.


Well, if you’re going to lump all of that together, who can argue.  If you want to argue from a stand point of intelligence then we need to examine each one.  First with Christianity, you need to separate the faith from the Church (one can’t really do that with Islam).  The Faith of Christ is love.  Where Christ failed was allowing the Catholic Church to rise up.  Burning witches and killing people in the name of Jesus was out of fear and ignorance and a power grab for the Church.  That isn’t the teachings of Christ and neither did it have anything to do with him.  So perhaps he didn’t fail.  He knew this was going to happen but we needed to learn it for ourselves.  As far as the Crusades went, many were justified and those that weren’t were usually against other Christians.

But we all know that Islam never did any of that.  After all, what is the penalty for being a non believer?  There are a lot of atrocities made in the name of Allah too.  The Church no longer calls for the death penalty for prostitution or apostasy.  Can you say that of Islam?  The History of Christianity is not perfect and there were many atrocities performed in its name and many things that were justified.  I freely admit that.  I never hear Muslims admit to the atrocities and dishonesty performed in the name of Islam.  Even when presented with many examples, like I have in the recent past.


It’s all in delivery.  It does mean to force or die.  And you do prove that by saying that Christians won’t go to Heaven.  It is definitely coercion.  Now this brings up two points that I should mention.

When Ali became Caliph, it was his opinion that Islam was only for Arabs but after his death it spread throughout North Africa, Turkey, and Persia.  It spread by proselytizing and by the sword.  Not so much of convert or die, but by dominating the locals and then making life so difficult for them that it was better to convert.  That is forcing.  And it’s not so much the forcing part as it is the arrogance.  I know the Church can be arrogant but it doesn’t hold a candle to Islam.

But to be fair.  Europe under Charlemagne was forced to convert from Pagan to Christianity.  He took a lesson right out of the Muslim playbook, from just a hundred years prior.  Now the thing is, is that I believe these initial conquests were for the best.  It unified the Middle East and Europe under their prospective cultures.  But since then, conversion by either side has been less than stellar.  The la Reconquista was good but the Inquisition and the treatment toward the Maya and other tribes was horrendous.

The thing is that the Church is no longer in the business to convert by force, whereas Islam still has its marching orders.  If you are not Muslim, then you aren’t going to Heaven.  But this gets to the core of Mohammed’s error.  Mohammed believed that Christianity was a corruption.  That Jesus is not Divine, yet still remains as a major prophet??  But if he failed bringing the message, he would be a false prophet.  Are not false prophets put to death?  That sounds like someone that doesn’t understand the advanced concept of the Trinity.


In the first place, the thought is absurd.  Yeah, I’m sure Christians have asked that question to themselves.  But for most, by questioning one’s faith usually makes it stronger.  That statement (Jesus saying Christianity is wrong) will never happen.  Mohammed just didn’t understand the Trinity, nor what Allah was telling him about it.  Jesus being GOD incarnate is the core concept in Christianity.  This would be more than just a corruption of scripture.  It would be a major disaster.  It would be such a disaster that its followers would figure it out quickly in good order.  Christianity would cease to work.  But it has been going strong for some 2000 years.  That tells me that it is a legitimate religion and its precepts are not wrong.  As you once said, what is easier to believe, an honest prophet that misunderstood something and the Christian expression of faith by a billion souls or that Christianity is wrong?  No prophet is infailable.


It’s not what you said.  It’s what the Quran says.

first thing he was wrong stop defending a worthless weak point talking about the anti christ while mixing him with some one else

makes the whole talk is crap .. it's embarrasing to defend such weak debate to feed ego it's not worth it

now look how you talk about christians and the church and try to sereprate their actions from the faith
that's a pathatic method of proving a point .. i can even say the same hey
suicide bombers are not based on islamic faith too .. can you give me line from quran
that says you should wear bomb belt and blow your self in admist of market ? good luck with that
seriously raven the more you talk .. the weaker your debate becomes it's pointless

about the penalty for being a non believer here it is
if a non-muslim living in islamic rule .. he will be pay fines .. now listen CAREFULLY it's important
i know it's falling on deaf ears but am too generous
in islamic rule muslims have duty such as military service and other things
when the non-muslim pay the money as fines .. he is spared those duties so it's fair
so too bad .. islam doesn't kill non-believers as you desperatly trying to prove with really bad debate
it's not even worth replying too but like i said .. am too generous

who told you we never blame wrong things done by name of islam ?
i blame suicide bombers " in innocent civilians places " i blame them for doing it in name of islam
while it's wrong .. but suicide bombers .. in military places of an enemy " invading them on their land "
that i don't really disagree with .. it's war they got their methods

and when islam spread as you talked .. ain't that brilliant ? at least muslims didn't crusade all over the world
trying to slave every non-christian .. they actually thought strategy way to spread it without using force or dead .. isn't that more peaceful than the crusaders ? i think it was brillant
but hey .. they didn't leave people to starve .. just we get it clear !

and not only mohammad think jesus wasn't divine . all muslims don't
you see to us .. there's no man that need eat sleep and take a poo .. can be a god
not even mohammad him self can rise to even coming close to the level of god
and don't get me started about the trinity there's whole debate for that matter


and at the end i'll ask you for a proof .. from Quran " as you claim " that says when jesus come back to earth
to kill the anti christ he will force people to convert

Note : Am Really waiting impatiently for that prove from Quran

[and then]

If this Jesus of Islam isn't going to kill all nonbelievers then how does he kill Dajjal and his Jewish followers?  How can Jizyah be abolished due to there being no other religion on earth at that time unless the other religions are removed?
Harun Yahya in his book Jesus Will Return says "Jesus will remove all systems of disbelief in that period".    KoS if you are claiming that the Jesus of the Holy Bible and the Issa of Islam are the same man then you are deluded.  Jesus claimed to be God while He was here on earth.  Your "Jesus" will say he never claimed to be a god.  Can a prophet of Islam lie?    The Issa of Islam will fail.  But before he fails the world will be drawn into the bloodiest most hellish time that mankind has ever known.  You have heard the truth and you are without excuse.

[Knight Of Shadows]

he will kill Djal yes .. but why should he kill innocent people if fact .. prove it
bring me a proof that's the least you can do to make such claim ?
and yes i think jesus is the same as Issa .. and i don't believe jesus ever claimed to be god and he wasn't god
however that's different topic

don't bring me books written by people .. people aren't angels you know they make mistakes their mistakes are not mine to justify
.. bring me Quran Or Hadith as proof if not .. then it's not part of islam prophecy

hehehehe yeah i already know the true i wasn't waiting for you to tell me mate .. at least in my opinion i knew
your opinion though .. it's yours to form the way you want

[and then]

John 8:58  "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

I AM is the name for God among the Jews.  You are a good representative of your people and religion KoS.  

[Knight Of Shadows]

Mark 18:10
why do you call me good ? only god is truely good

[and then]

Knight Of Shadows, on 01 May 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Mark 18:10
why do you call me good ? only god is truely good

I said you were a good representative, not a good person.  I'm not a good person either but I do hold my temper when dealing with folks who are trying to annoy me.  
KoS you live in a country ruled by a tyrant who murders women, children and old people.  It is done, I assume for the exercise of raw power but at the heart of it the reasons usually have a connection to religion.  How is it you can be so sanctimonious about the beliefs of Christians when your own religion doesn't speak out against  the slaughter of innocents?

[psyche101]

@ Ravenhawk, I just noticed you moved this here, and I have read the OP, thank you very much it is an awesome post. I really enjoyed it. Before I comment I wish to read it again, and catch up with the other comments. But may I say thank you for this effort.

[Parsip]

<p>

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not really leaving obligatory and doing forbidden things doesn't make you non-muslimdo you not see what i post ? what makes you muslim only few words " i acknowledge that there's no god but allah and i acknowledge that muhmmad is his prophetthese words makes a person muslim and the belief of few things i mentioned above

You are talking about joining Islam, I am talking about remaining a Muslim. In Islam, alcohol is absolutely forbidden, the worst of all evils, and its users are cursed by Allah. Why do you drink it? If you're addicted, it's understandable. But when alcohol is absolutely forbidden and despised in Islam, why keep drinking it for no reason? Likewise, daily prayer is obligatory. Why don't you do it? Either you don't care much about Islam or you believe what's forbidden is allowed and what's obligatory is unnecessary. I'm guessing you follow the Hanafi school.

"The Islamic state would apply the punishments you mentioned only in the case of legally-qualified sane Muslims who unequivocally refuse to pray and consider themselves free of any such obligation, or unequivocally express denial of any indisputably obligatory belief (such as belief in the Qur'an) or ruling (such as the prohibition of intoxicants), whereupon the status of apostasy (ridda) becomes applicable to them, otherwise "only" the status of immorality (fisq), such as a person who does not pray but still knows that it is obligatory and that one is guilty of sin in not doing so."

So you're either an apostate or willfully immoral and ignoring your religious obligations. But sure, you're a Muslim.

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i can see why you're so upset and trying to find void point to make it look like am not .. but to your bad luck you're not doing great jobyou think muslims don't sin ? hell even adam sinnedyou think muslims are angels ? no one is bound from making mistakes in their life .. except mohammad coz he was prophet

It's one thing to sin and later cease and repent, and another to freely sin and never repent while knowing or denying you're committing grave sins.

Quote

have you not heard of hadith that speaks of one woman who worshiped god day and night .. and she'll go to hell coz she trapped a cat in her house till starved to death ?now how come did she .. she was perfect muslim in your own twisted logic .. still in hadith it said she's going to helland haven't you heard of another hadith of the woman who was comitting adultry all her life .. and she went to heaven by giving a dog water to drink ?now from your own logic too how come did that happen ? she wasn't " REAL " muslim as your flawed logic suppose

Muhammad arbitrarily sent people to heaven or hell. The first woman was punished for hurting an animal that Muhammad was fond of, and the second woman was merely forgiven for committing adultery; she didn't go to heaven. Where in the hadiths does it say the first one was a flawless Muslim and the second one went to heaven?

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see .. i really think  your argument is weak coz you try to base it on personal level with me
not that i can't take that .. it's just you're terriably bad at it and failure to make a good point

am not sure what you want me on commenting on those Quran trasnaltions that say about inventing new religion
since obviously believeing in allah and mohammad and the other prophets and holy books and etc etc is what makes you muslim

and another flawed logic of yours .. haj is not duty on all muslims .. only those who can offered it
seriously i can go on forever picking mistakes after you and not be finished this is halirious i think you should drop it
and stop deciding what people are and what people aren't ... personally i think your whole middle east claim and story you said just lie
to make people sympathy with you and agree with you .. but i won't agree on something wrong coz of that .. sorry see ya

I didn't make it personal; you did with your comments on my location, because you have no argument beside claiming Muhammad actually meant the opposite of what he said.

I didn't say pilgrimage, or even prayer, was obligatory for those who are physically unable to do them. That doesn't mean they're not obligatory for those who are able to do them.

Your conspiracy theory is amusing, but I won't honor it with a response. This discussion is pointless.

Edited by Parsip, 02 May 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Knight Of Shadows]

Parsip, on 02 May 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

<p>

You are talking about joining Islam, I am talking about remaining a Muslim. In Islam, alcohol is absolutely forbidden, the worst of all evils, and its users are cursed by Allah. Why do you drink it? If you're addicted, it's understandable. But when alcohol is absolutely forbidden and despised in Islam, why keep drinking it for no reason? Likewise, daily prayer is obligatory. Why don't you do it? Either you don't care much about Islam or you believe what's forbidden is allowed and what's obligatory is unnecessary. I'm guessing you follow the Hanafi school.

"The Islamic state would apply the punishments you mentioned only in the case of legally-qualified sane Muslims who unequivocally refuse to pray and consider themselves free of any such obligation, or unequivocally express denial of any indisputably obligatory belief (such as belief in the Qur'an) or ruling (such as the prohibition of intoxicants), whereupon the status of apostasy (ridda) becomes applicable to them, otherwise "only" the status of immorality (fisq), such as a person who does not pray but still knows that it is obligatory and that one is guilty of sin in not doing so."

So you're either an apostate or willfully immoral and ignoring your religious obligations. But sure, you're a Muslim.



It's one thing to sin and later cease and repent, and another to freely sin and never repent while knowing or denying you're committing grave sins.



Muhammad arbitrarily sent people to heaven or hell. The first woman was punished for hurting an animal that Muhammad was fond of, and the second woman was merely forgiven for committing adultery; she didn't go to heaven. Where in the hadiths does it say the first one was a flawless Muslim and the second one went to heaven?



I didn't make it personal; you did with your comments on my location, because you have no argument beside claiming Muhammad actually meant the opposite of what he said.

I didn't say pilgrimage, or even prayer, was obligatory for those who are physically unable to do them. That doesn't mean they're not obligatory for those who are able to do them.

Your conspiracy theory is amusing, but I won't honor it with a response. This discussion is pointless.

once you join islam you remain muslim even if you're not praying .. you only leave islam when you decided to reject that allah is the only god
and mohammd is his prophet .. like you did .. although am sure you were never muslim it's just made up story like i said .. to win sympathy
but no sympathy from me .. i debate i hold no bars so you eiather debate with no complaining on how harsh i am in debate
or you don.t debate with me that's easy
now am pretty busy with other debates and you keep asking same stupid question and i keep answering it
you only need to brighten your monitor screen coz it's eaither too dark .. or you can't read well
you have this idea that if you don't pray .. you're not muslim .. if you drink . you're not muslim
and no that's not true as i stated i give you TWO hadith up there as examples of two different muslims
one of them in heaven one of them in hell and surprisingly the one in hell was the one praying much and the one in heaven was the one commiting adultry
the hadith explained why too .. but you think you're smart you just wanna argue i doubt you even read it

just look how stupid the way you explained it which makes me not even doubt you were muslim am doubting intelligant as well
you know it's not worth it to discuss it with you and like i said am too busy in other debate right now
so i have no time to pick up with some one claiming what's he's not
when you decide to forth and admit you were only pretending what you are to gain sympathy .. i might be willing to debate with you
but you shouldn't decide who's muslim and who's not .. not when you're lying about your own identy

and yes you made it very personal when you started to decide on my behalf if i was muslim or not
it's something i decide not you .. i can say i am or am not it's never your bussiness it's never was eaither
that gives me the right to snap back and judge you the same way and say you weren't muslim and never in middle east too
and made up story to gain sympathy from people to prove your points .. see if you don't want me to judge you .. then don't judge me

you can ask me about islam i'd be glad to reply but to decide from your own self that am not muslim and claim it as fact
it's not your decision to make

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 02 May 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Knight Of Shadows]

and then, on 02 May 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

I said you were a good representative, not a good person.  I'm not a good person either but I do hold my temper when dealing with folks who are trying to annoy me.  
KoS you live in a country ruled by a tyrant who murders women, children and old people.  It is done, I assume for the exercise of raw power but at the heart of it the reasons usually have a connection to religion.  How is it you can be so sanctimonious about the beliefs of Christians when your own religion doesn't speak out against  the slaughter of innocents?

want me to give you lines from Quran and Hadith that forbids the killing of innocents ?
what's being done here by whom who's doing it .. link to nothing on islam it's plain poltics but religion is thrown in the middle
to scary minority so they can take action against muslims by fear of the future ... and they did .. i know handy numbers of christians
who set out killing innocents to keep the current course of things
therefore you really don't know how are things here what you see on your tv is just a hint
and they don't talk on tv about sensetive matters as the one i just mentioned to you

surprisingly .. muslims are the one who suffering coz of religion here by non-muslims
which could dissapoint you .. but it is what it is