Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Minoan civilization was made in Europe


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#16    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:37 PM

Abramelin, Im fan of Marija Gimbutas. So I prefer Russian steppe. And I completly forgot about Basques. You are right.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#17    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:54 PM

View Postthe L, on 18 May 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Abramelin, Im fan of Marija Gimbutas. So I prefer Russian steppe. And I completly forgot about Basques. You are right.

The Anatolians were just part of our ancestry. Maybe they introduced agriculture, part of our languages,but they were not the only ones. So did the Doggerlanders, the Scythians, and so did the ancestors of the Basques.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#18    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:54 PM

Abramelin, I know this is offtopic but what do you think where surviving Doggerlanders settled?
Perhaps on Crete? :innocent:

Edited by the L, 18 May 2013 - 10:54 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#19    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,713 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:14 AM

View Postthe L, on 18 May 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Im little surprise on conclusions made by article. Not saying its not true since I already said many times that fall of Hittites cause fall of Minoans. Suggesting that they were tight connected with Hittites. So my conclusions was that they came from Anatolia. (Mostly, see rest of the post.)

But...how did they know that Minoans originate from Europe. Im mean we dont know how many population live on those Islands.
Also last time I checked Minoans were MULTI ETHNIC society.  I think that tells all about this article.

I think your timescale is off. The Minoans petered out long before the Hittites. Minoan civilization was probably mostly gone by the end of the sixteenth century BCE or early in the fifteenth, to be supplanted by the Mycenaeans in the Aegean. The Hittites rose to prominence later and disappeared from the stage in the Late Bronze Age, by around the end of the twelfth century BCE.

The Egyptian connection is no longer considered valid. As I explained in my earlier post, this idea was seeded by Evans, and there was really no evidence for it from the start. The weight of evidence tells us the earliest Minoans (meaning in prehistoric times) probably migrated into the Aegean from Anatolia. These were essentially not Europeans (Western Asian would be a more precise designation).

I'm aware of the new theory that Indo-European originated from Anatolia. It seems to be the theory de jour. Just the same, it is not widely accepted.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#20    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,713 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:15 AM

View Postthe L, on 18 May 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Abramelin, I know this is offtopic but what do you think where surviving Doggerlanders settled?
Perhaps on Crete? :innocent:

Or Atlantis?

Oh, crap, I shouldn't have said that. :w00t:

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#21    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,363 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:29 AM

I would put it slightly differently from the OP.  Minoan civilization originated on Crete from a population that can be traced back to Asia Minor, not that the civilization originated in Asia Minor.  There are heavy north African influences, apparently built up on a native, Crete-based foundation culture.


#22    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,654 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

  • I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious. ~ Einstein

Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 18 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

OLB tells that everyone was Frisian/Fryan. Doesnt it??
No not at all. There is also many Findas folk and Lydas people too. But specifically it does mention Minos/Minno as being born Fryan. J's answer is ridiculously off what the book states too. There was many non-Fryans.

I'm not here to talk too much OLB but I will link the appropriate part, so for anyone not familiar with it - because it really makes a lot of sense that he did imo. This is not the Cretans, this is one man, Minno the law-maker - so famed for his fair and just laws he holds a place of judge in mythology.



USEFUL EXTRACTS FROM THE WRITINGS LEFT BY MINNO.


Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher, and he gave laws to the Cretans. He was born at Lindaoord, and after all his wanderings he had the happiness to die at Lindahem.
If our neighbours have a piece of land or water which it would be advantageous for us to possess, it is proper that we should offer to buy it. If they refuse to sell it, we must let them keep it. This is Frya’s Tex, and it would be unjust to act contrary to it.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

So, the Cretans/Minoans could be a culture from wherever, Europe, Anatolia but Minos would be from Europe according to the OLB.

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 May 2013 - 06:42 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#23    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:52 AM

Kmt,
Sanotrini or Thera eruption dating from 1623-1603 years BC. But it wasnt destroyed Minoans. They civilization flourished from 2700 BC and continued after 1500. Minoans were bronze age civilization, small comparing to existing in that time such as Egypt,Mesoptamia and Hittites. They were like third world compared to those and depended on trade. Similar like Venetian republic or Dutch republic. Thera only destroyed Akrotiri. Bronze age civilization on Crete was possibly destroyed when Hittites declined. Maybe after battle of Kadesh  1274 bc Hittites were weaken so when strong Assyrians came and defeated them at battle in north Mesopotamia when Hittites were under Tudhaliya IV, son of Hatussili. 1237 to 1209 was accepted decline of Hittites. After him only four rulers ruled Hittites. But we dont realy know when Hittites start to collapse. Neihter final year of Minoans.
There are signs of Minoans to 1250 as I remember. 24 years after battle of Kadesh.
Fall of Minoans doesnt fit any criteria of collapsing society except collapse due fall of trading partner.
Neither war or ecocide cause their fall.

Again I will point out that Minoans were multi ethnic civilization. They traded with Egypt and with Hittites. Gods know from where topless priestes with snakes came from, or bull skipping sport. From Crete to Africa is nothing. So did part of them came from Lybia? Who knows what Linear A is hiding from us? From where it cames those cryptogram script with 80 signs? You dont need to read books to conclude their multi ethnic society. Just google Minoans and look pictures. Meaning that they were different type gene carriers.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#24    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 19 May 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:



I'm aware of the new theory that Indo-European originated from Anatolia. It seems to be the theory de jour. Just the same, it is not widely accepted.

Kurgan hypothesis is most likely.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#25    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,654 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

  • I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious. ~ Einstein

Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:00 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 May 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

I would put it slightly differently from the OP.  Minoan civilization originated on Crete from a population that can be traced back to Asia Minor, not that the civilization originated in Asia Minor.  There are heavy north African influences, apparently built up on a native, Crete-based foundation culture.
Yes, Anatolia origin is portrayed as being European in the actual article, like genetics isn't confusing enough.
You put it well, the civilization originated in Crete and may have even come in from anywhere, maybe Greece, Thessaly specifically imo.  I also think something from Libya has come in, no doubt.

This says the same thing as the article anyway.
The oldest evidence of inhabitants on Crete are preceramic Neolithic farming community remains that date to approximately 7000 BCE.[15] A comparative study of DNA haplogroups of modern Cretan men showed that a male founder group, from Anatolia or the Levant, is shared with the Greeks.[16] The neolithic population dwelt in open villages. Fishermen's huts were built on the shores, while the fertile Mesara Plain was used for agriculture
http://en.wikipedia....an_civilization

Minoans were traders and had ships, could sail very well and travelled most likely to Africa, based on the Akrotiri frescoe, they were J2 line haplogroup, same as Phoenicians.

It makes logical sense to me at least, that they are also an early Phoenician.

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 May 2013 - 07:17 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#26    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:06 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 19 May 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Or Atlantis?

Oh, crap, I shouldn't have said that. :w00t:

Maybe Doogerland inspired Plato.

Edited by the L, 19 May 2013 - 07:09 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#27    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:22 AM

Multi Ethnic is crucial to this story.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by the L, 19 May 2013 - 07:25 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#28    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,363 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:46 AM

Oh to have such a narrow waist!


#29    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,611 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:39 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 May 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Because some linguists/historians thought these Cretans came from Libya or Egypt.

Still would not be really news, the Minoan culture and civilization was created on Crete and the surrounding islands, there is no vestige of it in either North Africa nor Anatolia that existed prior to Crete. If we were to go after the headline all cultures were made in Africa.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#30    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:32 AM

View Postthe L, on 18 May 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Abramelin, I know this is offtopic but what do you think where surviving Doggerlanders settled?
Perhaps on Crete? :innocent:

First on the coasts of the newly formed North Sea. Others may have sailed up the Weser, Elbe, Rhine and Meuse to find a place to settle in Europe.

I have my doubts about them sailing the open seas, although there is proof of them practising whaling.  Sailing though the new Strait of Dover must have been an impressive, but also a very scary and dangerous experience because the cliffs on both sides were much closer than they are now (see images on page 57 or 58 of the Doggerland thread) and thus creating a strong current.

But there's another way to cross Europe, and that's by the rivers. People could have sailed up the Rhine or Elbe as far as possible, then walked a relative short distance, and then again continue on the Danube up to the Black Sea. Of course, to travel up the Rhine/Elbe (ie. against the current) they had to have many rowers or sails if they went on the move as a whole tribe (or its survivors). I doubt they had ships like that back then. Or else it was done using many dugout canoes.
Btw, these rivers could have been known trade routes.

Posted Image
MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.


Posted Image

http://www.unexplain...25#entry4567737
http://www.unexplain...40#entry4737947

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 May 2013 - 11:51 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users