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Alien photos that make you go HHHMMM .......

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#106    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:43 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Possibly, yes. However it still hasn't been definitively shown that life could only exist or evolve on 'earth like worlds'. Not that I'm trying to imply that anything is possible however we don't fully know just yet what is or isn't possible to be honest.

I am not sure I agree. WIthout going out on a limb and allowing an exotic explanation, we do know what allows the mechanics of life to operate. We have quite and array of life here, with Cephalopods we have an example of one good alternative to our system, they use hemocyanin, a copper-containing protein, rather than hemoglobin, to transport oxygen. Silicone has also been studied as an alternative to carbon based existence, and also found wanting:

Quote

Life-forms must also be able to collect, store, and utilize energy from their environment. In carbon-based biota, the basic energy storage compounds are carbohydrates in which the carbon atoms are linked by single bonds into a chain. A carbohydrate is oxidized to release energy (and the waste products water and carbon dioxide) in a series of controlled steps using enzymes. These enzymes are large, complex molecules (seeproteins) which catalyze specific reactions because of their shape and "handedness." A feature of carbon chemistry is that many of its compounds can take right and left forms, and it is this handedness, or chirality, that gives enzymes their ability to recognize and regulate a huge variety of processes in the body. Silicon's failure to give rise to many compounds that display handedness makes it hard to see how it could serve as the basis for the many interconnected chains of reactions needed to support life.

The absence of silicon-based biology, or even silicon-based prebiotic chemicals, is also suggested by astronomical evidence. Wherever astronomers have looked – in meteorites, in comets, in the atmospheres of the giant planets, in the interstellar medium, and in the outer layers of cool stars – they have found molecules of oxidized silicon (silicon dioxide and silicates) but no substances such as silanes or silicones which might be the precursors of a silicon biochemistry.

Link - Silicone Based Life

For life to form, again, as we know it, and under the conditions of an earth like planet, there seems little wriggle room outside of carbon based life, suggesting an identical beginning. Environment would shape the inhabitants to a large extent, but that puts us back with the standard evolutionary model, and with many examples of convergent evolution taking place amongst our 50 billion species, it stands to reason the same would happen on any one of the many earth like planets, offering a similar path to intelligence. I cannot see how one can rationalise life outside of this model without any examples, particularly when nature has had 50 billion of them to experiment with on or own planet unless invoking the great unknown as do the proponents that equate UFO to ET?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#107    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:45 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Wish your daughter a Happy Birthday from those of us state-side. :tu:

It was a great night :D

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#108    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

As to the leverage, yes an arm does give strength to the hand. A spider model actually has 8 hands at the end of their legs. Well, hooks anyway, but I don't see any reason why there couldn't be some sort of evolutionary variation there. The design couples full body manipulation as well as fine manipulation with individual limbs. Imagine the kind of contraptions that 8 limbs could manipulate! It would make driving a manual transmission or even something like flying a helicopter look like child's play. Also, a lever is one of the earliest tools made by man, so why not another intelligent species on the other side of the universe? The advent of tools greatly modifies the range of abilities of the tool user. :tu:

Maybe if some anchoring arrangement was in place, some hypothetical 8 limbed creature with a big brain could fly a helicopter, but what about building it? Mining, smelting, casting, all those things that are just hard work and require much leverage? The hand does not have leverage without an arm.
I think the arm is still missing, 8 arms is great to reach many things, but where and why is the leverage? Why would they come to discover leverage it if they can just crawl over their food and eat it? Or create a web to suit their needs? We became intelligent out of necessity. Predator defence had to be managed by hand, starting with throwing a simple rock, which led to further tool use and was the first foray into leverage. Arachnids had already overcome this with massive birth rates and poisons. They took a completely different path because they had no need to travel ours. It seems that if a creature evolves so much to suit the environment, what is the factor that leads to manipulating it? Any why retain all 8 limbs if leverage can make better use, and allow limbs to combine and become stronger? We lost the tail, why keep 8 skinny weak arms when you can have two very strong ones?

And the big one. Fire. A major evolutionary step that was a leap out of the dark ages. A spider type animal has no need for fire, and never did, and their evolutionary developments negate a need for it altogether.
I do not think an intelligent species "has leverage" I think leverage is a product of an intelligent species, and a milestone. Whilst it is one of the earliest tools used by man, it helped shape man. If we had never seen a need for leverage, I see no reason why we would have evolved to where we are today.

Starting with utilising the most abundant natural source, - oxygen - evolving into a creature that ended up leaving the trees and moving into hunter gathering, and natural selection allowing the birthing process to adapt to a larger head to accomodate a well nourished brain, as well as bipedalism offering a superior view, and more efficient sex practices, rising to the necessity for dealing with predators which gave way to rock throwing, introducing leverage, wich in turn allowed prey to become predator, which in turn allowed out brain to grow and devote more time to thought processes, which in turn led to fire allowing food to be more efficiently processed compounded the energy the brain could use, leading to more practical applications such as leaving hunter gathering for farming, which led to accounting practices, and ultimately plasma TV's and IPads. Each step was required to keep the species in Apex predator position. We are the right body plan to think our way around things to suit us, not change ourselves to suit the environment. That is where we became unique in the history of this planet. And beat 50 billion species to intelligence.

Again, as it is a proven successful model in a race of 50 billion shapes, I am not sure why it would be impossible, or even extremely unlikely for this shape to be common. If it is possible for an 8 legged creature to achieve intelligence and retain the same body plan (although the head remains a problem), why would this be more common, or more likely than the anthropomorphic design?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#109    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:03 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 15 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

So more like Dinosaurs then?

Quite possible IMHO, evolution gave them an advantage here, the extinction events we suffered allowed them to become the apex predator. Would this be the case still if the Chicxulub  event did not happen? Or any of the extinction events prior to that? Or would we be feasting on Dino Stakes like Fred Flintstone?



Could Troonodon have become this?
Posted Image


Why did Dale Russel end up with this eventual body plan?

View PostR4z3rsPar4d0x, on 15 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

YES!!! I totally agree with you.


May I ask why.

View PostWearer of Hats, on 15 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I recall one of those "what if... docudramas" where they send a probe to another world and explore the life there, the narrator suggests that "head, even number of limbs etc" is probably the most stable landdwelling design, you have the sensory organs in one place, able to rotate them a fair degree, you can elevate them over foliage and get them close to food etc.


LINK - ?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#110    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:44 AM

That's the beastie.


#111    DONTEATUS

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:14 AM

Well the real trick will be to stick around long enough to see what flys our way ! THen we can all talk about it to Infintuim!

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#112    Lava_Lady

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:35 AM

View Postmfrmboy, on 14 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

What photos of aliens make you think they could be real ?

A few that I had to take a second look at -
Does anyone know anything about these ?Attachment dead_alien_picture_6.jpgAttachment dead_alien_picture_10.jpgAttachment dead_alien_picture_11.jpgAttachment dead_alien_picture_12.jpg

Dang... those are some good pics.  Especially the 2nd and the 4th.  It's hard to recreate that empty look in the eyes when someone dies.  It's a very distinct difference between living and dead, you can see it in animals eyes too.  Those two pics are creaping me out and they make me feel sad.

I'm believing they're fake since so many people have submitted proof but... dang... really realistic. :unsure:

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#113    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:56 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 16 November 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

That's the beastie.

But yet again, the intelligent species on he planet was basically anthropomorphic in design as well. They just replaced legs with a buoyancy sac, wich again I think creates problems with leverage.


Posted Image

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#114    DONTEATUS

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:50 AM

:alien: Good work psyche101

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#115    Slave2Fate

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:01 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Again, as it is a proven successful model in a race of 50 billion shapes, I am not sure why it would be impossible, or even extremely unlikely for this shape to be common. If it is possible for an 8 legged creature to achieve intelligence and retain the same body plan (although the head remains a problem), why would this be more common, or more likely than the anthropomorphic design?

Hey psyche, sorry for the delay in responding. Spent some time out of town with some family. :tu:

I actually agree with everything you are stating. With the only exception of the why would an arachnid model (or any model for that matter) develop intelligence. We have no idea what kind of environmental pressures and circumstances that could force such a dramatic shift in intelligence. Sure, we have a decent grasp of our own path but that doesn't mean it is the only path possible.

Remember too that I am not arguing against the anthropomorphic model. We only have to look in the mirror to know that it works. The arguments supporting the probable commonality of the anthropomorphic model (convergent evolution, mechanical advantages etc.) are sound in my opinion. I'm only arguing (well, suggesting really) that it might not be the only model out there.

The sheer variety of life, it's endless multitude of forms and the environmental factors that can arise over untold millennia  among countless planets is just too much to ignore (for lack of a better word) in my humble opinion. :tu:

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#116    DONTEATUS

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:02 PM

I think we have already seen the Aliens ?

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#117    psyche101

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:00 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 18 November 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Hey psyche, sorry for the delay in responding. Spent some time out of town with some family. :tu:

I know what that is like, hope you had a great time :D

View PostSlave2Fate, on 18 November 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

I actually agree with everything you are stating. With the only exception of the why would an arachnid model (or any model for that matter) develop intelligence. We have no idea what kind of environmental pressures and circumstances that could force such a dramatic shift in intelligence. Sure, we have a decent grasp of our own path but that doesn't mean it is the only path possible.

I think though, that every path moulded by evolution shows us that necessity tends to provide the body plans. Arachnids and the like evolve to suit the environment, we broke that shell and started changing the environment to suit us. It strikes me that intelligence is simply not required to survive, so that path seems an unlikely one for evolution to follow with a species that changes, and was well suited from the beginning, for the environment.

View PostSlave2Fate, on 18 November 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Remember too that I am not arguing against the anthropomorphic model. We only have to look in the mirror to know that it works. The arguments supporting the probable commonality of the anthropomorphic model (convergent evolution, mechanical advantages etc.) are sound in my opinion. I'm only arguing (well, suggesting really) that it might not be the only model out there.

Indeed, and I probably lost you a little there, The original argument from the opposing party was that we are unlikely to ever see anything similar to ourselves. I think that is poppycock. I would not consider it an outrageous thought for two Homo sapien like beings sitting in the andromeda galaxy on electronic communicating devices discussing life in the Milky Way Galaxy.

View PostSlave2Fate, on 18 November 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

The sheer variety of life, it's endless multitude of forms and the environmental factors that can arise over untold millennia  among countless planets is just too much to ignore (for lack of a better word) in my humble opinion. :tu:

Indeed, but far from ignoring it, I find that out of 50 billion species, only one body plan took existence to a new level. I think that is very compelling at the very least.

Edited by psyche101, 19 November 2012 - 03:01 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#118    DONTEATUS

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:25 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 19 November 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

I know what that is like, hope you had a great time :D



I think though, that every path moulded by evolution shows us that necessity tends to provide the body plans. Arachnids and the like evolve to suit the environment, we broke that shell and started changing the environment to suit us. It strikes me that intelligence is simply not required to survive, so that path seems an unlikely one for evolution to follow with a species that changes, and was well suited from the beginning, for the environment.



Indeed, and I probably lost you a little there, The original argument from the opposing party was that we are unlikely to ever see anything similar to ourselves. I think that is poppycock. I would not consider it an outrageous thought for two Homo sapien like beings sitting in the andromeda galaxy on electronic communicating devices discussing life in the Milky Way Galaxy.



Indeed, but far from ignoring it, I find that out of 50 billion species, only one body plan took existence to a new level. I think that is very compelling at the very least.
I will totally agree on this game plan psyche101 ! I will bet a dime to a dollar  that Many,Many years from now we will maybe have the opportunity to put our theory`s to a test. I too believe that Alien`s that acheive Star Travel ability will much indeed look a lot like us ! At Least have an affection for walk man`s and video games !

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#119    psyche101

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:53 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 19 November 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

I will totally agree on this game plan psyche101 ! I will bet a dime to a dollar  that Many,Many years from now we will maybe have the opportunity to put our theory`s to a test. I too believe that Alien`s that acheive Star Travel ability will much indeed look a lot like us ! At Least have an affection for walk man`s and video games !

I agree, what is intelligence without an IPod?

I just hope they do not have big veiny heads but a bit more like 7 off 9.

Exoskeletons seem a bit light on to me. They might look good on the surface, but there is nothing under them. It seems to me that any hole in the armour might be rather dangerous to the individual.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#120    DONTEATUS

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:09 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 19 November 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

I agree, what is intelligence without an IPod?

I just hope they do not have big veiny heads but a bit more like 7 off 9.

Exoskeletons seem a bit light on to me. They might look good on the surface, but there is nothing under them. It seems to me that any hole in the armour might be rather dangerous to the individual.
If they Look like 7 of 9  Im saying that we maybe the ones showing off the veiny heads !

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