171 replies to this topic

[Philangeli]

libstaK, on 21 June 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Philangeli if they believed the new testament they would be Christians not Muslims, if Jews believed the new testament they too would be Christians - wait, that's right the first christians were converted Jews.

Agnostics by definition are those who have not yet decided that the evidence is sufficient to believe in God or Jesus or any form of Deity - you are thinking of Gnostics, there are christian gnostics who will happily state Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, he is "The Son of God". The notion of a "substitute" is not something I've spent any time on, nor have any interest in - I've yet to see anything "substantial" on the matter so I'll let others address it if they feel it worth the time tbh.

My mistake. Yes, I meant the Gnostics. Even if many muslims are not aware of their influence, it is still there.
Muslims do not accept that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and is the second person of the Trinity. They consider him to be a prophet only.

Yes, you are right, neither do Jews. But, perhaps that is the subject of a new topic, as this one is concerned with whether the being referred to as Allah is the same being as referred to as God/Yahweh in the Bible.

But, in passing, both Jews and Christians also refer to God as Abba/Father. Muslims never call Allah their father.

[libstaK]

Philangeli, on 21 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

My mistake. Yes, I meant the Gnostics. Even if many muslims are not aware of their influence, it is still there.
Muslims do not accept that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and is the second person of the Trinity. They consider him to be a prophet only.

Yes, you are right, neither do Jews. But, perhaps that is the subject of a new topic, as this one is concerned with whether the being referred to as Allah is the same being as referred to as God/Yahweh in the Bible.

But, in passing, both Jews and Christians also refer to God as Abba/Father. Muslims never call Allah their father.

Nevertheless their God Allah is in their own book the same God as that of Abraham just as for the Jews and Christians, so it is indeed the same one God.

[Philangeli]

libstaK, on 21 June 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Nevertheless their God Allah is in their own book the same God as that of Abraham just as for the Jews and Christians, so it is indeed the same one God.

If that is the case, then, why are Jews and Christians often referred to, in the Quran, as unbelievers or infidels?

[odas]

Philangeli, on 21 June 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

If that is the case, then, why are Jews and Christians often referred to, in the Quran, as unbelievers or infidels?

I do not agree with this statement. While, yes, there is a difference in belief, Jews, Christians and Sabinians are reffered to as people of the book.
The book refers to, not only to the bible, but to the, acording to the Quran, one boom in heavens that contains all three scriptures. According to the Quran, all three scriptures are one whose message is delivered in stages. Unfortunately most christians as well as many, many muslims do not understand the Quranic meaning of infidel ot unbeliever and to whom it is directed. It is no different as the old testament.

[odas]

Philangeli, on 21 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

My mistake. Yes, I meant the Gnostics. Even if many muslims are not aware of their influence, it is still there.
Muslims do not accept that Jesus died on the cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and is the second person of the Trinity. They consider him to be a prophet only.

Yes, you are right, neither do Jews. But, perhaps that is the subject of a new topic, as this one is concerned with whether the being referred to as Allah is the same being as referred to as God/Yahweh in the Bible.

But, in passing, both Jews and Christians also refer to God as Abba/Father. Muslims never call Allah their father.

Because, I as a muslim, have only one father and only one mother and neither one of them is divine.

[hetrodoxly]

Uncle Pockets, on 21 June 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Spoken to a brother more studied on the topic than I and after a few words he guided me to this.

http://www.marifah.n...dinalsuyuti.pdf

You asked as to who was he a servant to and I stated to you that it was a strong possibility that it was God, and I was not qualified to state anything that was unknown to me in hopes of making a point sir.

Ibn al-Jawzī enumerates in al-Talqīh the names of nine who refused to worship

idols in the time of the Jahiliyya: Abū Bakr al-Siddīq, Zayd ibn `Amr ibn Nufayl,
`Abdullāh ibn Jahsh, `Uthmān ibn al-Huwayrith, Waraqā ibn Nawfal, Rabab ibn alBarrā’, As`ad ibn Kurayb al-Humayrī, Qass ibn Sa`īda al-Iyādī, Abū Qays ibn Sarma.

Sorry but this is nonsense and Abū Bakr al-Siddīq was Mohammed's father in law, not an idol in the kaaba

[odas]

hetrodoxly, on 21 June 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Sorry but this is nonsense and Abū Bakr al-Siddīq was Mohammed's father in law, not an idol in the kaaba

He sais nine people who refused to pray to idols among them Abu Bakr. Please read a post more carefuly before you respond. Thank you.

[hetrodoxly]

odas, on 21 June 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

He sais nine people who refused to pray to idols among them Abu Bakr. Please read a post more carefuly before you respond. Thank you.

Please read a post more carefully before you respond. Thank you.
I can now see he left a large gap between sentences, why?
is he replying to the right post because his reply has no relevance to my post?
He wrote, "idols in the time of the Jahiliyya: Abū Bakr al-Siddīq, Zayd ibn `Amr ibn Nufayl,
`Abdullāh ibn Jahsh, `Uthmān ibn al-Huwayrith, Waraqā ibn Nawfal, Rabab ibn alBarrā’, As`ad ibn Kurayb al-Humayrī, Qass ibn Sa`īda al-Iyādī, Abū Qays ibn Sarma"

[lightly]

He used to be.

[eight bits]

Well, let's do an experiment. If three creative works each incorporates a character based on one single traditional character, is the character "the same" in all three works?

Let's take a religious figure. Hercules, the son of the most high god. Here are three films, each of which features a character named Hercules. Each work has obviously drawn on the same body of myths, traditions and legends. Also, earlier works are available for authors of later works to draw upon as well.

A 1997 cartoon feature,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119282/

A television series contemporary with the cartoon,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111999/

A Handel oratorio, here in a 2005 production,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0456974/

Does the same character appear in all three works? No, of course not. Each author has selected some things from the common corpus, and left the rest. Each creator has added original matter to what was taken from the common source. Each author has allowed the genre (animation, serial, musical drama) to influence the selection and creation of material.

The result is three unqiue characters with the same name and many parallels, but there is no possibility, none whatsoever, of one charcater being mistaken for either of the others.

OK, now let's do YHWH-God-Allah.

YHWH is the the collective product of the Hebrew national imagination. Jesus is a (probable) historical character whose deification results in the Triune God, utterly unknown to the Hebrews, and utterly irrelevant to modern Jewish religion. Allah is the original and sole creation of Mohammed, based skettchily on both Hebrew and (mainly heretical) Christian sources, with many original elements and adaptations to the folklore of his people.

And Abraham? He worshipped the Canaanite God El, according to the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 6: 2-3). Or Yahweh, since there supposed to be the same, or Allah, since they're supposed to be the same, or Jesus (Before Abraham was, I am), since they're supposed to be the same.

Finally, the same analysis can be run on Jesus. Is Jesus, the (probable) historical character, the same person as St Paul's Jesus? Nicene Christians say yes, Muslims say no. So much for the same God theory right there. Is either of those Jesuses the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus? That would be Archangel Michael to Nicenes. Are any of those Jesuses the Mormon Jesus? The Gnostic Jesus? Marcion's Jesus? The Nestorian Jesus?

Of course not.

Edited by eight bits, 21 June 2012 - 11:32 PM.

[Uncle Pockets]

hetrodoxly, on 21 June 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Sorry but this is nonsense and Abū Bakr al-Siddīq was Mohammed's father in law, not an idol in the kaaba

You misread that sir.  States that he was one of the 9 men who refused to worship. Not sure why it appeared like that.

[Philangeli]

odas, on 21 June 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

I do not agree with this statement. While, yes, there is a difference in belief, Jews, Christians and Sabinians are reffered to as people of the book.
The book refers to, not only to the bible, but to the, acording to the Quran, one boom in heavens that contains all three scriptures. According to the Quran, all three scriptures are one whose message is delivered in stages. Unfortunately most christians as well as many, many muslims do not understand the Quranic meaning of infidel ot unbeliever and to whom it is directed. It is no different as the old testament.

In Islam, all non-Muslims are called unbelievers or infidels. The treatment of the infidels in Islam is divided into two categories. The polytheists, pagans, idolaters and heathens had the choice of converting to Islam or suffer death.

The Jews and Christians, whom the Quran calls people of the book, could keep their religion, but on the sufferance of accepting humiliation and subjugation to Islam and payment of Jizyah (poll-tax) to the Islamic rulers.

There are many verses in the Quran, supposedly spoken by Allah to Mohammed, encouraging him to wage war and kill the 'infidels', too many to list here (see link below).

Why would God instruct Mohammed to attack (in the name of God) others who already believed in God? A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

http://www.thereligi...23-violence.htm

[Philangeli]

odas, on 21 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Because, I as a muslim, have only one father and only one mother and neither one of them is divine.

We call God, our Father (capital F), as, according to the Bible, he created us. He is the Father of mankind.
The word, father, has an extended meaning to just being the literal progenitor of a child, e.g. 'The father of lies'.

Edited by Philangeli, 22 June 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Mr Walker]

eight bits, on 21 June 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Well, let's do an experiment. If three creative works each incorporates a character based on one single traditional character, is the character "the same" in all three works?

Let's take a religious figure. Hercules, the son of the most high god. Here are three films, each of which features a character named Hercules. Each work has obviously drawn on the same body of myths, traditions and legends. Also, earlier works are available for authors of later works to draw upon as well.

A 1997 cartoon feature,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119282/

A television series contemporary with the cartoon,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111999/

A Handel oratorio, here in a 2005 production,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0456974/

Does the same character appear in all three works? No, of course not. Each author has selected some things from the common corpus, and left the rest. Each creator has added original matter to what was taken from the common source. Each author has allowed the genre (animation, serial, musical drama) to influence the selection and creation of material.

The result is three unqiue characters with the same name and many parallels, but there is no possibility, none whatsoever, of one charcater being mistaken for either of the others.

OK, now let's do YHWH-God-Allah.

YHWH is the the collective product of the Hebrew national imagination. Jesus is a (probable) historical character whose deification results in the Triune God, utterly unknown to the Hebrews, and utterly irrelevant to modern Jewish religion. Allah is the original and sole creation of Mohammed, based skettchily on both Hebrew and (mainly heretical) Christian sources, with many original elements and adaptations to the folklore of his people.

And Abraham? He worshipped the Canaanite God El, according to the Hebrew Bible (Exodus 6: 2-3). Or Yahweh, since there supposed to be the same, or Allah, since they're supposed to be the same, or Jesus (Before Abraham was, I am), since they're supposed to be the same.

Finally, the same analysis can be run on Jesus. Is Jesus, the (probable) historical character, the same person as St Paul's Jesus? Nicene Christians say yes, Muslims say no. So much for the same God theory right there. Is either of those Jesuses the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus? That would be Archangel Michael to Nicenes. Are any of those Jesuses the Mormon Jesus? The Gnostic Jesus? Marcion's Jesus? The Nestorian Jesus?

Of course not.

To take you first example. Yes they are the same character (the mythological figure of hercules) In terms of being the same "person" but they do not hold all the common characteristics of the one person . In some cases they may even be transferred through space and time.

The same is tue for the multitude of films and variants on robin hood. "Everyone" who sees these films understands they are referencing the one character, despite many  portrayed differences. This is also true for merlin  and arthur.
In the same way, the jesus of  jews, muslims, christians, ( including mormons) is the same character even though the character is viewed and referenced through widely varying perspectives and emphases.

In short, the "character " referenced is the same one, even where the character of the "character" varies widely.

[eight bits]

In a recent post in a different thread, I invoked a Jason whose Argo was decocrated with Pennzoil, Bud Light and Doritos decals. Is my Jason "the same as" as the Jason of the ancients? No, that was neither my intention, nor the effect my posting had.

I invoked an archetype and juxtaposed two instances of it, an ancient Jason and a modern race car driver. Because I could rely on the reader knowing what I was talking about, I created something new, something that is neither Jason, although that was the character's name, nor it it any race car driver whao has ever been, either.

It is a insult to Jews to say that Christians and Muslims worship the God of their Hebrew ancestors, in whose name both have murdered Jews wholesale. It is an insult to Chrsitians to say that Allah, who faked the death of the Christian God to bamboozle the Jews, is the Christian God. It is an insult to Muslims to say that they worship a God who has a son. who is his peer. It is an insult to Mormons to say that their God had a son without having sex with the child's mother, and a compound insult that the child's mother wasn't God's wife.

Things which are the same have no differences among them. The Abrahamic Gods.have diffrences among them. They are not the same. That was the question posed to the community. The answer is no.