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Time travel


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#46    Rlyeh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostDr. Mrdad, on 31 December 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

If you went back and removed Hitler, it still wouldn't affect your reality. Removing Hitler would create a whole new world, but it will not change the one you came from. You would still go back to a world that was tainted by Hitler because that is the reality your a Projecting from. The instant moment Hitler is removed, it no longer becomes the same reality you will project from.
You're re-using John Titor's excuse.
If you're going to use another world, then you really haven't time traveled.

How would removing Hitler make a new world? Either you did travel back in time and just your presence there affected causality, or you went to a world that is identical to our past.

Edited by Rlyeh, 31 December 2012 - 05:09 PM.


#47    StarMountainKid

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

There's a law of physics that states energy cannot be created or destroyed. What happens when your time machine (matter=energy) suddenly appears in the past? How will that extra matter (energy) interact with the universe at that moment? I don't think this is a trivial question.

I think the time machine would have to be isolated or insulated in its own space-time.  Its occupants would be able to observe that past moment, but not interact with it. This would eliminate all the time paradoxes. In fact, all these paradoxes may be the fundamental reason time travel into the past is forbidden by the laws of nature.  Sort of a conservation of time law.

In any event, I think the past, present and future all exist physically as slices of space-time, sort of like a movie film. All the frames exist, but are isolated from each other. Somehow consciousness moves along the film, but the film itself does not move. I believe this is an acceptable theory in physics.

If all space exists, and space and time are inseparable, then all time must exist also.

I would consider deja vu* or premonitions may be leakage between frames or slices of space-time, or consciousness deviating in its movement from past to future.

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#48    keninsc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:32 PM

Your talking about the law of conservation of energy. This might help: http://library.think...data/lawce1.htm

The only problem is you haven't created anything "new", matter in the universe is a constant. If you go back in time then you and the machine doesn't represent anything new. The matter that makes up you time machine is still present in another form.........just as you are.

The trick with time is everything is in flux so to speak in the future and dependent on choices, events and circumstances made in the present. Once they become the past then they are pretty much locked. So travel from the present forward into the future really can't happen because the future is still in a state of flux. The past we could do since everything is locked and set.

Now there is a theory that says there are an infinite number of possible futures and we could travel down one of those time lines. A future where Germany won WWII, where the US never became the dominate power on the planet, and so on. Whether or not they are real and tangible and therefore "travelable", I can't say and nether can anyone else. Although, Dr. Who doesn't seem to have any trouble with it. :unsure2:

Edited by keninsc, 31 December 2012 - 08:44 PM.


#49    keninsc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 31 December 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Causality is when an event leads to another event.

In your example, Hitler is the reason you went back. You remove him and thereby remove the event that lead to you going back.

Yeah, and if you don't go back then he's still there.


#50    keninsc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostHilander, on 31 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Since people can get premonitions of the future and often they happen then I think the future is already written but can be changed.  If we start going forward and backward in time we might screw things up so bad our whole reality would change.  I hope time travel never happens, it could be used for good but all we need is some deranged person let say that hates the US.  They go back and kill George Washington and possibly change things so the US never happens.  We could also stop bad things from happening by lets say killing Hitler but I bet that wouldn't be what it is used for.

Could be some people can indeed see through time to events in the future, however it's a possible future and changable in the present, if you know what the trigger event is. That is the event that allows you to get to that point. Say you saw yourself on a trip to an airport, one you'd never been to before........then instead of going your plans are changed or you have to change them because you caught a cold, or a relative died.....something. Then you never wound up going on that trip to that place. I've had feeling of deja vu myself. some have happened and some never did due to changes to the trigger event. I can't speak for you but when I experience it I never see the trigger event just the result of having been here and doing this before when it's impossible to have done so. Not sure if I'm making sense on this one or not, it's not easily explained to be honest.


#51    keninsc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:49 PM

I did have an interesting sort of indirect experience once. Many years ago, I was home on leave and saw an old friend of mine. Cathy, (an artsy type) was home as well and we went out and got to talking, she had her ever present sketch book with her and she was always sketching things she saw, well she was showing it to me and I noticed she'd sketched out this really cool looking house on the side of a river bank. Recognized the place immediately as being a real place, but the house didn't exist there So I asked if maybe she had hopes of building a house there one day and she looked at me and laughed saying a house was already there. She'd seen it the other day when she was out and about and thought it was lovely and she sketched it. Then I told I'd been by there just the day before and there was nothing like that there, we didn't argue but we disagreed and I said, "Ok, so let's take a drive." We go out there and nothing is there, the river is there, the high bank is there, but nothing else, no house, the area is all Scrub and Blackjack oaks and broom straw. She stared at it like she couldn't believe it, she started freaking out saying she'd seem this house, right effing there and now it was gone.

After a bit I calmed her down........of course at this time I didn't have a deep an understanding of such things as I do now. Ok, so many years later, I'm married and have kids of my own and the wife, now the ex-wife and I are off to visit an old friend of mine and our route takes us by this old river crossing. Lo and Behold! There is the very house that Cathy had drawn all those years ago. I'm trying to recall the drawing and as best I can recall, it's the house. I pull over abruptly, the wife is wondering if I've lost my mind and I tell her the story. Ok, she's pretty much convinced I've lost my mind at this point. My curiosity over came me and I drove up to the house and knocked on the door and spoke to the owners and this was a bit of a difficult conversation, so rather than go up all freaked out and telling them the truth I just came up and asked them how long the the house had been there and that it looked really great and all that........I don't think I was very convincing. However, the man was very nice and told me they'd only been in the house about a year and that it was a new construction.

Unfortunately, Cathy had died a few years earlier, but I'm convinced she experienced some sort of time shift. I've since heard of other people experiencing the very same thing. So, who knows? Daja Vu might well be something like this.


#52    Dr. Mirdad

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:58 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 31 December 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

You're re-using John Titor's excuse.
If you're going to use another world, then you really haven't time traveled.

How would removing Hitler make a new world? Either you did travel back in time and just your presence there affected causality, or you went to a world that is identical to our past.

Think of it like this. If I go to the past and prevent my parents from getting together and having me. That would not stop me from existing. It would just create a parallel earth where I would not exist. Not affecting me because I am from a separate parallel earth where my parents got together and had me. The world where I exist and where I dont have there own two distinctive past. Hence why say I would be able to experience a New world.

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#53    Rlyeh

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:27 AM

View PostDr. Mrdad, on 01 January 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Think of it like this. If I go to the past and prevent my parents from getting together and having me. That would not stop me from existing. It would just create a parallel earth where I would not exist. Not affecting me because I am from a separate parallel earth where my parents got together and had me. The world where I exist and where I dont have there own two distinctive past. Hence why say I would be able to experience a New world.
If you did really go to the past, just your presence would affect the future. Sounds like you want time travel without the affects of causality.

Edited by Rlyeh, 01 January 2013 - 09:39 AM.


#54    Dr. Mirdad

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 01 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

If you did really go to the past, just your presence would affect the future. Sounds like you want time travel without the affects of causality.
And I will agree with you on that, just my presence in the past would affect the future. My guess is that it wouldn't do anything major, I wanna explain more but this dimensional thing but it is hard to cover in words, let alone for one to stomach.

Edited by Dr. Mrdad, 01 January 2013 - 11:58 AM.

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#55    keninsc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 01 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

If you did really go to the past, just your presence would affect the future. Sounds like you want time travel without the affects of causality.

And how exactly would his mere presence in the past change anything? Seriously? Yeah, there is that silly theory that says you change stuff by measuring it or observing it. Give me a break, that would mean that any change in the present......where stuff changes a zillion times a second is constantly changing the past as well as the future. If this is the case then there is no past or future only the present and the whole point is moot.

Ok, let take an example. Let's say I got back in time to a point exactly one lottery drawing away from when a giant lottery was won by some old couple in New Jersey. Only I know what the winning number will be for that lottery because........say it with me......I'm from the future. I play the winning number and win. Now, what changes? Very little as far as the world is concerned. Ok, I won a lottery not quite as large as would have been won on the next drawing, the old couple don't win and go on with their lives. So you see the win happened it just happened one drawing earlier because now I have come back with the winning number. The only thing that really changed was the timing of the win......the amount of the win.....and who won. And the rest of the world just kept on going just like it did in the other time line.

Now, did such a thing really rip apart the very fabric of time and cause the universe to fly apart at the seams, well of course not. Small changes that aren't historically changing really don't amount to a pee hole in the snow as far as the world is concerned or the time line. Now, go back and stop Oswald from squeezing off that round into Kennedy and that is a serious change. Vietnam doesn't grow all out of proportion. The cold war doesn't heat up so badly. See what I'm saying? You pop back in time to just check on some things, keep your stuff together, don't start mailing letters to important people telling them their future or about future events and nothing changes.

Yes, it really is that simple.


#56    Rlyeh

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 01 January 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

And how exactly would his mere presence in the past change anything? Seriously?
Breathing, giving off heat. Although miniscule these changes originate from the future.

But seriously do you think before you respond?

Quote

Yeah, there is that silly theory that says you change stuff by measuring it or observing it. Give me a break, that would mean that any change in the present......where stuff changes a zillion times a second is constantly changing the past as well as the future. If this is the case then there is no past or future only the present and the whole point is moot.
The silly theory is the observer effect. Though I'm not sure where you're getting this crap about it changing the past.

Not really going to address your examples, you've demonstrated the concept of causality has gone way over your head. What you deem human history is overshadowed by the physics of the universe. Look up chaos theory if you are so certain tiny changes have no effect.

Edited by Rlyeh, 01 January 2013 - 02:55 PM.


#57    Dr. Mirdad

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 04:37 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 01 January 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Ok, let take an example. Let's say I got back in time to a point exactly one lottery drawing away from when a giant lottery was won by some old couple in New Jersey. Only I know what the winning number will be for that lottery because........say it with me......I'm from the future. I play the winning number and win. Now, what changes? Very little as far as the world is concerned. Ok, I won a lottery not quite as large as would have been won on the next drawing, the old couple don't win and go on with their lives. So you see the win happened it just happened one drawing earlier because now I have come back with the winning number. The only thing that really changed was the timing of the win......the amount of the win.....and who won. And the rest of the world just kept on going just like it did in the other time line.


Im gonna use icons to lighten up the mood and remember this is just my opinion as crazy as it does sound! :yes: and it will sound crazy...
Here the thing I've been trying to say, even if you  went back in the to the past and played the lottery number.... here it is.... You  still would not experience it in your reality when you go back into the future.... You  would have to give the winning ticket....to your other self...  in that parallel past earth.... and he would experience the wealth .... You  still would be broke when you go back to the future  ....because you ....came from a time line in a parallel future reality... where you  did not win the lottery :no:  .... You came from a parallel earth where the jersey couple won   ..... If you  went back to the past...., there would still be another you  there in that past.... because you  where still alive at that time point .... The future you... can interact with the past you ....., but once that happens....you .... create a new reality... where it will no longer be your past.... Unless... you  ... coming from the future... to the past.... already had that experience in the past.... of meeting himself  from the future..... try to stomach that one  ....You... cant change you ... from past... because that wouldnt be your past :no: ...



Though I will enlighten you on two ways you could be rich by time traveling . The first option would be for you...  to go back  into  the past.. where you ... didnt win the lottery  ... and  you.......being you ... from the future.. can go back before the lottery pick was played.... in the parallel past earth...  strap up :gun: ... in the parallel past..... where you didn't win or lose yet....  and you :gun:  can go find..... your past parallel self .... that is present in that reality... yup .... and upon meeting your parallel past self :st / :st .in the parallel past......You :gun:.... being from future...would have to kill your past parallel self.. in that past parallel past earth... where you didnt win or lose the lottery yet..... Yup...   You .. can then stay  and live there ... happily  .... in that parallel earth.... and never go back :whistle:   ...to that parallel future earth where ...you (didnt win :td: ) ......  And  you...Now... Staying in that parallel earth...... Since it is no longer your past... because you.. have tampered with it... (the slightest change, is a total change. Which therefor renders it no longer being the same past at all.. It makes new reality.. a new mass... a new form)...you could then... experience another world ( parallel reality earth).. where you  ...  still being a parallel future self... in a new parallel reality.... which is no longer your past (because you  were not killed by another you :gun:.. from a parallel future earth for a lottery ticket)... You ( the future parallel non lottery winner) can now win \$ :tsu:$/ the lottery in the  "new" parallel "past" earth where your past parallel self didn't win or lose yet...... a There is a universe where you can win  ...  


The second option would be for you to time travel to the future and get winning numbers from a future date, come back at the same exact point where you left. Play the number when the time comes and enjoy the riches

Heres another mind twister... YOU READY GUYS!! You being the past self  ....could go into the future.... and interact with yourself from the future :st/ :st ...  still being the past self.......and you can go back to the your original timeline .... and as your living your life in the present... which would be the future... and  here it is..... you could possibly meet yourself .... from the past ...that went to the future(in the past) ...to meet you ... in the present......   You would experience past self meeting future self .... and in the future.... the future self would be meeting the past self ...

.. crazy.. maybe I am. so to protect my self from the butchers of U_M.. I will say this just my opinion!!! :whistle:

The concept of creation is infinite, as well as the parallel realities and dimensions that exist in it.. Our science is based on the... (here it goes)...The ideas of certain individuals and their experiences with finite formations in their conscious experience of a finite existence ...in a infinite reality.....   These concepts that our collective human minds have come up with to understand the infinite experience ...as well gain knowledge of the.finite and infinite forms is a necessary self imposed limitation in our society.... This conceptual limitation we call science is needed in order to gain knowledge and understandings of his thing we call the universe. But we have to see that our concepts and understanding of science will change. So we shouldn't forcibly accept the old ideas of science as true and a unchangeable. Science of the past proved the earth was flat, well look it that concept now...  Time is our creation. A necessary social convention we have created. There couldn't be a society with out it. But because of this social convention we all experience time and reality differently . Time traveling would not be based on our clocks which we use to tell time because they are inaccurate, they only follow a liner fashion and time( by the clock) is different location and society.

Edited by Dr. Mrdad, 01 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.

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#58    pallidin

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:38 PM

That's the most spread-out emoticons I've seen in a single post!


#59    pallidin

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:48 PM

Oh, and just for the heck of it...

I don't remember the specific scientific paper, but, it has been proven that all of our human senses have a delay before we are concious of the "sense"

Bluntly, everything we see is actually slightly in the past, even our refelection in a mirror, our spouse right in front of us, cars passing by us, etc...

I know it's "nerdy" but thought I would pass that along anyway.


#60    StarMountainKid

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

keninsc said:

e machine doesn't represent anything new. The matter that makes up you time machine is still present in another form.........just as you are.

Yes, but the atoms and molecules that make up you and your time machine when you enter the Past are busy doing something else in that Past. When you arrive, if those atoms don't instantly leave what they are doing and become you and your ship, you are introducing extra energy into the universe.

I am familiar with the law of conservation of energy.

I think time travel into the past is fundamentally prohibited by the laws governing the structure of the physical universe, for obvious paradoxical reasons.

Time traveling into the future is also prohibited in the same way. Traveling into the future would create the same kinds of paradoxes as traveling into the past. I say this because the Future and the Past are not different from each other time-wise. The year 1800 is our Past, but for someone living in the year 1750, the year 1800 is the Future.

If we go back in time to the year 1800 and change some event, from the perspective of that person in 1750, we have traveled into the future. Past and Future are the same in the time dimension in this way.

Similarly, if you travel 10 years into the Past and meet your past self, from your past self's perspective, you are a traveler from the Future. From his perspective a future that hasn't happened yet, but his future has already happened.

I think this scenario is universal in Time. In other words, our Present is only a moment in the total Time continuum. The Past has already happened and the Future has already happened. Our Present is a moment somewhere within this continuum.

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