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Can't Wish Away Facts About Immigration

illegal immigration

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#61    Jessica Christ

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:15 AM

Throughout history those leaving one place for another to make a better life is a common theme.

When that happens you will always have those in the host country resenting the influx.

Every immigrant group to America went through the same issues.

With the first settlers it was the Indians and they got the bad end of the stick.

With the Catholics from Southern and Eastern Europe began to arrive they went through it and eventually integrated.

With the Africans, they came as slaves, the impact was not felt until after emancipation and they went en masse to northern industrial cities creating many tensions.

Now we have Hispanics coming and they will struggle as a few xenophobes try to keep them out.

America is not going to stop accepting immigrants, a part of the population always wishes they would, but in the future this will continue most likely with Asians immigration returning.

The Asians also began coming but the US put quick stops to that back then but in the future it will be different.

The fight for limited resources will wane as we better learn to manage resources.

It is a natural tendency for some to have the us vs them mindset, it is how we evolved, what got us through the tribal stage.

As we enter the new world there is less a reason to cling onto tribal ways.

Who knows, in the future, it might be Americans who leave en masse to go to another country.

Natural disasters happen, remember the scene from The Day After Tomorrow, and it was Americans crossing the Mexican border trying to get into Mexico...

...whatever the case no nation can last forever, even Rome fell, we won't last as long as Rome, the tendency to also believe you are the greatest, however false, will only increase the nativist sentiment.

Immigration reform is coming regardless of the obstructionists and the xenophobes. Our country will be better for it. Those who disagree have a right to disagree but they are no longer dominating the mainstream narrative so are relegated to the dark corners of the media and screaming their message when they can.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 13 May 2013 - 07:18 AM.


#62    Myles

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:17 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 13 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:


Natural disasters happen, remember the scene from The Day After Tomorrow, and it was Americans crossing the Mexican border trying to get into Mexico...



Are you citing a movie?

Those against this are not racist.   We are looking out for our country.   Nothing more, nothing less.  11 million mostly poor, mostly uneducated people are not going to make this country better at this time.


#63    Jessica Christ

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:23 AM

Yes, sorry about the movie.

And the nativists always say the same thing about how so and so group is this and this and how they will not make the country better.


#64    Myles

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 13 May 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Yes, sorry about the movie.

And the nativists always say the same thing about how so and so group is this and this and how they will not make the country better.

11 million mostly poor, mostly uneducated Canadians would not be a good thing either.


#65    aztek

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 13 May 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:



And the nativists always say the same thing about how so and so group is this and this and how they will not make the country better.
yea, becouse they are right.

the country does not get better, pretty obvous to anyone with no denial sindrom, just look around.

RESIDENT TROLL.

#66    xFelix

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostBig Jim, on 13 May 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

The laws of the US are not enacted by any one race and since whites are barely a majority it's too late to "keep the States white" if indeed that was ever a consideration.  How do you claim to know what is not expressed openly?  You state it as a matter of fact while it is clearly just your opinion.

Laws in general are enacted precisely to prevent people from doing what is in their best interest without consideration of society as a whole.  As an example, there is a rich neighborhood not far from where I live that is full of mansions.  It would benefit me greatly to live in one of those homes and also to drive the luxury car in the garage.  But I can't just climb the fence and take possession merely because I perceive it to be in my best interest.  There are "prohibitive laws"  in the way that are working quite well.  Now if several million like minded individuals had broken those same laws and gotten away with it I might be encouraged to improve my lot in life.  Never mind that life would definitely not be improved for the current legal owners.

So you're saying that if your livelihood were at stake and your government refused to help, you would not take appropriate action because it is illegal?

You want to talk law, let's talk law..

Quote

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

Quote

Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993),[1] was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that an ordinance passed in Hialeah, Florida, forbidding the "unnecessar[y]" killing of "an animal in a public or private ritual or ceremony not for the primary purpose of food consumption", was unconstitutional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Lukumi_Babalu_Aye_v._City_of_Hialeah
------------

Quote

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

Quote

AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

Quote

Gov. Andrew Cuomo calls those and other provisions in the state's new gun law common sense while dismissing criticisms he says come from "extreme fringe conservatives" who claim the government has no right to regulate guns.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/15/17761151-new-york-gun-owners-now-must-register-assault-weapons?lite

Those examples being given, and I can go into the hundreds if not thousands of examples...It's safe to say that laws that are unfair and illegal have been made and it is possible for a law to be overly protective to a point where some must surrender their rights in order for the laws to secure them.

In the case of most people migrating illegally, it is because they are desperate and feel that their lives and that of their families lives could be at risk. Their only recourse being to flee, and where they would love to enter the land of the free legally... The land of the free makes the process quite literally impossible for them. They then find that the immigration laws in effect are not only unfair, but inhumane. It is decided that they are in too desperate a position to wait for months or years and costing thousands to get a little paper.. So they decide at that moment to cross the border, work hard and save up every penny so that they can then afford the paper work needed to stay.

You want to mention economics?

Hispanics did help fight in the war that made 'Merica a free nation, Hispanics have fought in every war since, Hispanics been been a productive member of society, but we made laws that quite frankly mean "unless you are rich in your homeland we don't want you". Do you know what being rich within a Hispanic country entails? Illegal activity. In essence you made the law so that only "drug mules" or "weapons dealers" can enter the country legally.

That is quite frankly completely disgusting considering that these people helped you fight for the rights that you have, but you deny them those same rights. Then you go from disgusting into 'lowest scumbag on earth' mode and you start flinging around racist comments about them, most of which were the same exact comments used against Africans who you have long since accepted you were wrong about.

"Negros are uneducated" vs "Hispanics are uneducated"(They are uneducated because they are not given the chance at proper schooling)
"Negros are violents" vs "Hispanics are violent"(They are violent, because they are being treated like wild animals and they must defend themselves)
"They are not the same as us" vs "They are not from our country"(They helped build the backbone of this country in blood sweat and tears, their being different doesn't mean crap.)

--------------

PS-For those who say "This is America, speak English!". America, is a land mass that was Spanish long before it was English. Even the word America (What you proclaim to be your country's name) is Spanish.

So in essence we carved ourselves a piece of land, killed off the real owners and declared it our own.. We fought for our freedom and had help.. Now when the people that helped us ask for entry into the country they helped make.. We say no fck you.. Ok good logic.

Edited by xFelix, 13 May 2013 - 03:46 PM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#67    Big Jim

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:14 PM

View PostxFelix, on 13 May 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

So you're saying that if your livelihood were at stake and your government refused to help, you would not take appropriate action because it is illegal?

You want to talk law, let's talk law..

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Lukumi_Babalu_Aye_v._City_of_Hialeah
------------


http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/15/17761151-new-york-gun-owners-now-must-register-assault-weapons?lite

Those examples being given, and I can go into the hundreds if not thousands of examples...It's safe to say that laws that are unfair and illegal have been made and it is possible for a law to be overly protective to a point where some must surrender their rights in order for the laws to secure them.

In the case of most people migrating illegally, it is because they are desperate and feel that their lives and that of their families lives could be at risk. Their only recourse being to flee, and where they would love to enter the land of the free legally... The land of the free makes the process quite literally impossible for them. They then find that the immigration laws in effect are not only unfair, but inhumane. It is decided that they are in too desperate a position to wait for months or years and costing thousands to get a little paper.. So they decide at that moment to cross the border, work hard and save up every penny so that they can then afford the paper work needed to stay.

You want to mention economics?

Hispanics did help fight in the war that made 'Merica a free nation, Hispanics have fought in every war since, Hispanics been been a productive member of society, but we made laws that quite frankly mean "unless you are rich in your homeland we don't want you". Do you know what being rich within a Hispanic country entails? Illegal activity. In essence you made the law so that only "drug mules" or "weapons dealers" can enter the country legally.

That is quite frankly completely disgusting considering that these people helped you fight for the rights that you have, but you deny them those same rights. Then you go from disgusting into 'lowest scumbag on earth' mode and you start flinging around racist comments about them, most of which were the same exact comments used against Africans who you have long since accepted you were wrong about.

"Negros are uneducated" vs "Hispanics are uneducated"(They are uneducated because they are not given the chance at proper schooling)
"Negros are violents" vs "Hispanics are violent"(They are violent, because they are being treated like wild animals and they must defend themselves)
"They are not the same as us" vs "They are not from our country"(They helped build the backbone of this country in blood sweat and tears, their being different doesn't mean crap.)

--------------

PS-For those who say "This is America, speak English!". America, is a land mass that was Spanish long before it was English. Even the word America (What you proclaim to be your country's name) is Spanish.

So in essence we carved ourselves a piece of land, killed off the real owners and declared it our own.. We fought for our freedom and had help.. Now when the people that helped us ask for entry into the country they helped make.. We say no fck you.. Ok good logic.



#68    Big Jim

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:19 PM

I said exactly what I said.  The paraphrase you are arguing with is of your own construction.  But to answer your question, in a word, yes.  Many times my livelihood has not only been threatened but has disappeared entirely and the laws against robbing banks kept me from "taking appropriate action" in lieu of government help.

I was only commenting that immigration policy is defined by the laws that Congress has enacted, "right or wrong"  as I originally stated.  I was not, nor will not, enter into a lengthy discussion about all our laws.  Not only would it lead to a discussion of absurdities such as why there are no whales in Kansas it would take us even further off topic than some have already strayed.


#69    xFelix

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:41 PM

View PostBig Jim, on 13 May 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I said exactly what I said.  The paraphrase you are arguing with is of your own construction.  But to answer your question, in a word, yes.  Many times my livelihood has not only been threatened but has disappeared entirely and the laws against robbing banks kept me from "taking appropriate action" in lieu of government help.

I was only commenting that immigration policy is defined by the laws that Congress has enacted, "right or wrong"  as I originally stated.  I was not, nor will not, enter into a lengthy discussion about all our laws.  Not only would it lead to a discussion of absurdities such as why there are no whales in Kansas it would take us even further off topic than some have already strayed.

I call bs, anybody that truly finds their life in danger does not give a crap what the law says, they do what they have to do in order to survive. Stating otherwise is bordering on mental illness. This is EXACTLY why when unemployment goes up so does crime rates, but when unemployment goes down so does crime rates.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/crimwage.htm
http://www.cepr.org/press/DP2129.htm

So you're saying that even though the immigration laws are completely unwarranted you will not argue that, or any other laws, you will instead say that immigrants shouldn't enter illegally?

Just saying, but if we are really to go by this standard of asking others for help and then slamming the door on them when they need ours... We are doomed as a nation.

Edited by xFelix, 13 May 2013 - 06:45 PM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#70    Big Jim

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostxFelix, on 13 May 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

I call bs, anybody that truly finds their life in danger does not give a crap what the law says, they do what they have to do in order to survive. Stating otherwise is bordering on mental illness. This is EXACTLY why when unemployment goes up so does crime rates, but when unemployment goes down so does crime rates.
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/crimwage.htm
http://www.cepr.org/press/DP2129.htm

So you're saying that even though the immigration laws are completely unwarranted you will not argue that, or any other laws, you will instead say that immigrants shouldn't enter illegally?

Just saying, but if we are really to go by this standard of asking others for help and then slamming the door on them when they need ours... We are doomed as a nation.

As long as you're going to keep telling me what you think I'm saying and then disputing something I never said, you might as well just make up my answer too.  But for the record, there is no BS in my replies.  Even when destitute I kept my moral bearings and did not resort to crime.  Robbing a bank, and surely getting caught, would have been the effective end of my life not it's salvation.  By enduring and coping with my personal hardships in a manner not harmful to others I survived to live again.  I cannot account for or defend those who resort to crime when they are unemployed.  They probably have an external excuse for all of their shortcomings and misjudgements, whether in good times or bad.

Edited by Big Jim, 13 May 2013 - 07:02 PM.


#71    Myles

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:29 PM

I don't know of many other countries who would accept 11 million mostly unemployed, mostly uneducated illegals.
It's a bad idea in this day and age.   You must be able to provide for your own before helping everyone else.  
Why not compromise and give them temporary visas.


#72    Kowalski

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

Quote

Fmr. Sen. Jim DeMint: $6.3 trillion immigration price tag ‘irrefutable’


The Fine Print
Former Sen. Jim DeMint (R – S.C.) is standing by the controversial Heritage Foundation study that put a $6.3 trillion price tag on the Senate immigration bill, saying: “There’s no doubt that these numbers are real.”
He also says he has no regrets about leaving the Senate to become president of the Heritage Foundation, recalling his recent years in the Senate as similar to “being on a treadmill going nowhere.”
“I’m at a place now at Heritage where I can have more impact on public policy than I could as a United States senator,” says DeMint.
As the Senate debates an immigration bill, DeMint is at the center of a dispute at Heritage. The conservative policy group released a report last week citing the $6.3 billion cost of the bill over 50 years, which many on both sides of the aisle have rebuked as overblown. The report faced further scrutiny after it was discovered that its co-author, Jason Richwine, has previously made controversial arguments based on race.
While Richwine has since resigned from the Heritage Foundation, and the organization has distanced itself from his previous writings, DeMint is not backing away from the report’s findings.
“The towering cost of moving forward this way is something everyone should stop and think, ‘Okay, let's check the numbers out, see if they're real,’” DeMint says. “I think they're irrefutable. I have done a lot of research in my life, there's no doubt that these numbers are real.”
DeMint discounts the argument made by supporters of the legislation that there will be long-term benefit to the U.S. economy.
“Some are suggesting that just having these additional workers is going to improve the economy and help everyone…There is no way over a fifty year period that this is going to improve the economy to a point that actually creates a benefit to American taxpayers,” he says.
DeMint contends that many of the estimated 10-12 million people to whom the bill would extend a path to citizenship will rely on government services more than they contribute in taxes.
“They take out over $9 trillion, they put in around $3 [trillion], but the net is a cost to taxpayers of $6.3 [trillion],” DeMint says.
While DeMint says the Heritage Foundation is supportive of the concept of immigration reform, he characterizes the current compromise as “blanket amnesty.”
“A true immigration reform would create a lot of benefits for America…but to get those benefits we don't have to offer this blanket amnesty for those who came here unlawfully,” he says. “It’s not fair to the 4 million people all around the world waiting to come here lawfully, costs way too much, and will make problems worse.”

Taken from http://news.yahoo.co...-112640100.html



#73    xFelix

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostMyles, on 13 May 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I don't know of many other countries who would accept 11 million mostly unemployed, mostly uneducated illegals.
It's a bad idea in this day and age.   You must be able to provide for your own before helping everyone else.  
Why not compromise and give them temporary visas.

I agree with that idea. Give them a way to earn their right to stay, but you can't just say fck it GET OUT.
I'm even for the idea of having them allowed only under temporary work visas in which they agree to pay taxes and only upon reaching a certain tax paid amount are they eligible for citizenship.

The issue with the way that politicians are wanting to do this is that they're again attempting to make it a long and demanding process costing too much. Simplify the process.

Solution: All those who are here illegally, but are working, non violent offenders can come and apply for temporary visa. Once you reach 5,000USD(just an example) Taxes paid you become eligible for citizenship. You may only become a citizen if you remain a non-violent offender the entire duration of your stay within the country, and at any time if you do become a violent offender you surrender your citizenship and right to residence.

The visa can be set to expire within 30 days of failure to be gainfully employed.


Just saying, as opposed to saying GET OUT, we should be saying EARN IT..

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#74    Kowalski

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:15 PM

View PostxFelix, on 14 May 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I agree with that idea. Give them a way to earn their right to stay, but you can't just say fck it GET OUT.
I'm even for the idea of having them allowed only under temporary work visas in which they agree to pay taxes and only upon reaching a certain tax paid amount are they eligible for citizenship.

The issue with the way that politicians are wanting to do this is that they're again attempting to make it a long and demanding process costing too much. Simplify the process.

Solution: All those who are here illegally, but are working, non violent offenders can come and apply for temporary visa. Once you reach 5,000USD(just an example) Taxes paid you become eligible for citizenship. You may only become a citizen if you remain a non-violent offender the entire duration of your stay within the country, and at any time if you do become a violent offender you surrender your citizenship and right to residence.

The visa can be set to expire within 30 days of failure to be gainfully employed.


Just saying, as opposed to saying GET OUT, we should be saying EARN IT..

I agree with that.  :tu:

I  just have a problem with this "blanket" amnesty going on. If they want to be here, they need to earn it just like everyone else did.

Edited by Kowalski, 14 May 2013 - 04:18 PM.


#75    xFelix

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:43 PM

View PostKowalski, on 14 May 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I agree with that.  :tu:

I  just have a problem with this "blanket" amnesty going on. If they want to be here, they need to earn it just like everyone else did.

I say we ditch our current politicians and empower UM posters, seeing as how we just solved an issue that has been going on forever in no time.. lol

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.






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