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north korea's 'pre emptive' strike against US


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#16    Myles

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 06:00 PM

I was kind of hoping this would die down when Kim Jong IL died.


#17    Bama13

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 07 March 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

The Korean War is what has led to this stage. I don't like the NK leaders, but what the U.S. did to their country was barbaric. I mean they blew up dams (a war crime of the highest regard) and literally bombed most of their cities (or large towns) into dust, killing millions. There was actual U.S. policy to destroy whole towns and cities ('set them on fire' was the term used, I believe) with no other objective than to kill as many of them as possible.

It's no wonder there is a constant state of paranoia in the country. It would be like asking the Chinese to trust the Japanese after WW2 if the Japanese hadn't been forced into disarming. The Chinese can't even do that to this day, with a relatively neutralised Japan.

Then there are the focused embargoes and sanctions that have helped (along with the leaders) induce famine and poverty among the civilians of the country, all because they don't adhere to capitalism. I don't agree with the North Korean leadership, but I do, in some way, understand their stance.

The NK's started the war, not the US. In wars people get killed and things get destroyed. It you don't want your people getting killed and your things destroyed then don't start a war.

Your knowledge of the Korean War seems to be minimal, at best. I'll leave the absurd claim about capitialism for others to deal with.

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#18    Bama13

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 07 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Thanks for that, I really did not know the cause that much - never paid much attention in history class to the Korean War tbh.

So then this is a reckoning for the things we do and did, the longer it's left to simmer the more ripe the result - woe us all, we create crazy people and carry on as if we are wise. :cry:

If all you know is what he posted you still don't know the cause. NK started the war, not the US.

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#19    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostCorp, on 07 March 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Sadly that's the way war was fought then. The same thing happened to Japan and Germany during the Second World War and yet both are allies of the US. The North Koreans were hardly guilt free in the war either so pinning all this on the US is just foolish.

And embargoes are put in because the Norks won't follow captialism? Really? That's a completely false statement and if you don't realise that then you really need to look past your own bias. North Korea could be helping its people by stoping to throw threats everywhere and actually use the aid they do get instead of spending all their money on their military. And last I checked China wasn't licking America's boots and yet they're not making sure everyone in North Korea is being feed. Russia doesn't seem to be stepping up either. So the people who have caused the suffering of the North Korean population are its leaders.

To be perfectly frank that smacks of trying to twist things around to somehow blame the US. You want to know who's the blame for the situation in North Korea then look no further than the rulers of that country. They are the ones who thought that 1984 was a good government model and kept their people as brainwashed peasants. They are the ones who are spending untold millions on their military instead of providing for the basic needs of their people. They are the ones who are endlessly making threats and have taken aggressive actions that could justifiable viewed as acts of war. The US has made some crappy foreign policy choices but dealing with North Korea is not one of them. They are not to blame for the current situation, Best Korea is.

First, I wasn't blaming the U.S. for the current hostilities - I personally believe that both parties hold equal blame for the state of North Korea. All I was doing was explaining to Lib why the North Korean leadership is so paranoid towards the U.S., and I thought I had made that clear.

Second, that is not the 'way war was fought'. After WW2 the World brought about international treaties and laws to prevent the sort of massacre of that war; the sort of massacre that happened in Korea. The UN Charter was signed, the Geneva Convention, and the Declaration of Human Rights, all of which the U.S. were great advocates and signatories of. So the old, 'it was just the way things were' argument really doesn't hold up. Would you use the same argument for atrocities carried out during the Vietnam War, also? Of course the North were also guilty of crimes, but they were nowhere near the scale of devastation of the U.S. crimes, and more often than not, carried out against other soldiers, not entire towns and villages.

Third, the embargoes and sanctions have been a direct cause of North Korea's communism model. As soon as the Soviet Union fell - their greatest ally, along with China - they were punished for their communist model, then in the mid 90s the punishment had its greatest effect, with the mass famine they experienced. These two things are directly related and all part of documented record.

Fourth, I was not absolving North Korea's leaders of any responsibility for the way they have treated their civilians (again, I thought I had made this clear). I was simply explaining the reasons for their paranoia, and that it was directly related to the U.S. treatment of the country. This is not even controversial, Corp. Now, while I do believe that there is an element of 1984 in their policies, I do not believe it is so for the same reasons as Orwell put forward. Theirs is a totalitarian state born through paranoia and fear of the South and U.S.. The fear and paranoia is probably warranted, their actions are not.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 07 March 2013 - 08:00 PM.


#20    OverSword

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostBama13, on 07 March 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

If all you know is what he posted you still don't know the cause. NK started the war, not the US.
Since you know, please enlighten us.  Why did the US feel the need to get involved in a civil war?  You make it sound like the N. koreans started a war with the USA.

Edited by OverSword, 07 March 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#21    AsteroidX

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

Quote

Would you use the same argument for atrocities carried out during the Vietnam War, also? Of course the North were also guilty of crimes, but they were nowhere near the scale of devastation of the U.S. crimes, and more often than not, carried out against other soldiers, not entire towns and villages.

That is complete bull****. Both sides carried out atrocities as in all wars. Wait for Frank Merton to come along since he lives there he can straighten that bit out for you.

The ***hat is threatening to nuke South Korea/America (he probably has the 2 confused because he cant even hit the USA) and likely could if he was willing to destroy his own people in the process. This is a very unstable time for Korean War which never ended by the way. It may resume.


#22    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:00 PM

View Postshrooma, on 07 March 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

http://rt.com/news/n...ear-strike-935/
.
if this is just sabre-rattling, then the size of the sabres just got a whole lot bigger!

North Korea hates the US.

A lot of North Koreans died in the Korean war, their towns and cities were leveled, their people got napalmed. Decades of US led sanctions have crippled the nations economy.

I think North Korea may well be crazy enough to do it. Sorry Americans put I'm off to buy some popcorn lol.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 March 2013 - 08:04 PM.


#23    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 07 March 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

That is complete bull****. Both sides carried out atrocities as in all wars. Wait for Frank Merton to come along since he lives there he can straighten that bit out for you.

The ***hat is threatening to nuke South Korea/America (he probably has the 2 confused because he cant even hit the USA) and likely could if he was willing to destroy his own people in the process. This is a very unstable time for Korean War which never ended by the way. It may resume.

War, in itself, is an atrocity.

What I am pointing out is the targeting and bombing of civilians and it is not 'bull****'. Cambodia, and Laos, carpet bombed hundreds of thousands of civilians. North Korea, carpet bombed millions, laying waste to entire towns and cities. It was much the same with Vietnam. Now, of course there were atrocities carried out by both sides, but largely not directed at civilians and in nowhere near the scale of the U.S.. This was my point and is an undeniable fact of documented history.

Why don't you read a few sensible posts from the thread. These threats, while still dangerous, are just the leader posturing - most likely because he wants something.


#24    AsteroidX

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:36 PM

Expanded..........I agree with you completely. Its atrocious. But do we wait for him to shoot a scud or worse a targeted nuke into Seoul SK before we react.

By the way these new sanctions are laughable...Susan Rice is a buffoon for making this statement.

Quote

The resolution specifies some luxury items North Korea's elite is not allowed to import, such as yachts, racing cars, luxury automobiles and certain types of jewelry. This is intended to close a loophole that had allowed countries to decide for themselves what constitutes a luxury good.
"These sanctions will bite and bite hard," said U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice.


source:  http://news.yahoo.co...-092109134.html


#25    AsteroidX

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:41 PM

Quote

most likely because he wants something.

Best Leader is much more aggressive then his father was. Hes been in power for a year or so and the tensions on the peninsula have never been higher. The armistice is over for one. The NK have disavowed it whatever that means. That has been in place since the end of the late 1950's. Maybe we dont see it that way and want to kieep "luxury" items out of NK but if you want to count on Best Leader as a sabre raddler for the next 60+ years hes in power be my guest.


#26    Stellar

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:45 PM

How do you "cancel" a ceasefire? Think about it. you can't "cancel a ceasefire" unless they start hostilities once again. You can't "cancel" it and then sit there *not* firing.

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#27    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:52 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 07 March 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Expanded..........I agree with you completely. Its atrocious. But do we wait for him to shoot a scud or worse a targeted nuke into Seoul SK before we react.

You don't really have much of a choice now. First, a war with NK would be massive in scale and would likely see half of the South destroyed in the process, and this was before they had a nuke. So pre-emptive, apart from being illegal under international law, would not have the desired effect.

Second, they now have nukes, a nuke, a few nukes, whatever. The point is that they could probably wipe out South Korea if they wanted to. So doing something now isn't really an option either.

Personally I think diplomacy is the only way forward, but none of the three actors seems interested in this avenue. And also, I don't believe the NK leadership is as crazy or as stupid as they are made out to be - or make themselves out to be. They gain nothing but their own destruction from war, and from using a nuke they would probably not even exist as a country afterwards. They must be fully aware of this, and in fact this is probably why they haven't attacked in all this time since the war. They would prefer MAD, with an end to sanctions and the like. But as long as the U.S. holds all those nukes pointed at the country, I don't think they would ever use one.

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#28    AsteroidX

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:58 PM

Quote

You don't really have much of a choice now

Your correct. I have no say in the matter. Nor do you or anyone on this board for that matter.

Sanctions are just stupid though. Ive always said that in the Iran thread and Ill say it here. Its a hollow word.


#29    shrooma

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:59 PM

View PostStellar, on 07 March 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

How do you "cancel" a ceasefire? Think about it. you can't "cancel a ceasefire" unless they start hostilities once again. You can't "cancel" it and then sit there *not* firing.
.
do you REALLY think north korea are developing long range missiles and nuclear weaponry so they DON'T use them??
seriously?

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#30    AsteroidX

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:02 PM

NK doesnt even claim there trying to develop nuclear energy power plants from what Ive read. All there talk is about building missiles and using them.





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