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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#46    Abramelin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:49 PM

Three writers, Jean Deruelle, Sylvain Tristan, and Guy Gervis all three have tried to prove that Dogger Island stayed above sea level untill around 3000 BC, even though according to science it finally sank around 5000 BC.

Also all three of them think that Doggerland/Dogger Island was the center of the Megalithic Culture, and that it spread from there to western Europe and even the Mediterranean.

Deruelle and Tristan think it stayed above seal level longer than is always assumed,
-a- because science is wrong, and
-b- it was being protected by dikes (of which no one up to now has found any traces of on the botton of the North Sea).


Like I have often said in the Doggerland thread, some people need to stretch facts to make an event or artifact fit into their pet theory.

You can believe me, the OLB date for the destruction of Atland - 2193 BC - and the whole OLB for that matter,  would fit perfectly into their theory, but as far as I know, they never mentioned the OLB in their writings.

You, Alewijn, say that you never read in the OLB that Atland was located in the North Sea. Many others who wrote about the OLB would not agree with you; they all mention the North Sea.

If you can prove without a doubt that something catastrophic happened around 2193 BC, that some island - a center of ancient Megalithic civilization - sank beneath the waves, then I would like to hear about it.



-

Edited by Abramelin, 02 July 2010 - 12:55 PM.


#47    Alewyn

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:10 PM

[quote name='Abramelin' date='02 July 2010 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1278073361' post='3476090']
OK, it's Sandbach's.

Your Quote:
"When I read this, I do not get the impression the event has anything to do with Crete or Thera or even the Mediterranean, but instead with the south-west coast of the present Netherlands"

Scientists estimate that the Thera eruption of ca 1627 -1630 BC had a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index)of between 6 and 7 which would make it anything from 100 to 1000 times bigger than the Mt.St Helens eruption in 1980 in the USA or the eruption that destroyed Pompeii. Both of these had an approximate VEI of 5.  Although this eruption occured  near Greece, one can reasonably infer that it must have caused massive tidal waves as far away as the Netherlands and beyond.

Your Quote:
"The OLB image of Nyhellenia is based on the image of the Greek goddess Athena."

Ah yes, but if the OLB is correct, it would just be the opposite.


#48    Abramelin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:30 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 02 July 2010 - 01:10 PM, said:

'Abramelin' date='02 July 2010OK, it's Sandbach's.

Your Quote:
"When I read this, I do not get the impression the event has anything to do with Crete or Thera or even the Mediterranean, but instead with the south-west coast of the present Netherlands"

Scientists estimate that the Thera eruption of ca 1627 -1630 BC had a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index)of between 6 and 7 which would make it anything from 100 to 1000 times bigger than the Mt.St Helens eruption in 1980 in the USA or the eruption that destroyed Pompeii. Both of these had an approximate VEI of 5.  Although this eruption occured  near Greece, one can reasonably infer that it must have caused massive tidal waves as far away as the Netherlands and beyond.

Your Quote:
"The OLB image of Nyhellenia is based on the image of the Greek goddess Athena."

Ah yes, but if the OLB is correct, it would just be the opposite.

I am not a geologist, but I am quite sure that a tidal wave or tsunami originating in the eastern Mediterranean would never reach as far as the North Sea.


#49    Alewyn

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:45 PM

[quote name='Abramelin' date='02 July 2010 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1278074977' post='3476093']


You, Alewijn, say that you never read in the OLB that Atland was located in the North Sea. Many others who wrote about the OLB would not agree with you; they all mention the North Sea.

Yes, I cannot recall anywhere in the OLB that they specifically mentioned Atland in the North Sea. I will check again but it seems to me that people just assumed it was in the North Sea and based all their theories on  this (incorrect) assumption. As for the Dogger Bank, the thought that this may have been their "Altland" never crossed my mind. I still believe that it is highly unlikely.
My interpretation of "The book of Adela's Followers", Chapter XXIV (2) is that Altland must have been a considerable distance from Europe. As I mentioned earlier, if it was in the North Sea, they would have known whether any part remained.

For now, I am going to watch Brazil getting thumped


#50    Abramelin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:15 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 02 July 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

'Abramelin' date='02 July 2010 - 12:49 PM'

You, Alewijn, say that you never read in the OLB that Atland was located in the North Sea. Many others who wrote about the OLB would not agree with you; they all mention the North Sea.



Yes, I cannot recall anywhere in the OLB that they specifically mentioned Atland in the North Sea. I will check again but it seems to me that people just assumed it was in the North Sea and based all their theories on  this (incorrect) assumption. As for the Dogger Bank, the thought that this may have been their "Altland" never crossed my mind. I still believe that it is highly unlikely.
My interpretation of "The book of Adela's Followers", Chapter XXIV (2) is that Altland must have been a considerable distance from Europe. As I mentioned earlier, if it was in the North Sea, they would have known whether any part remained.

For now, I am going to watch Brazil getting thumped


Well, it was Ottema, the first translator - and on whose translation the later English translation are based - had a different opinion:

From Ottema:

(Dutch)
Uit dit geschrift blijkt, dat het een uitgestrekt land geweest is ten westen van Jutland, waarvan Helgoland en de Noordfriesche eilanden de laatste schamele overblijfselen zijn. Deze gebeurtenis, waardoor het schijnt dat een groote verstrooijing van den Frieschen stam veroorzaakt is, was het aanvangspunt eener eigene tijdrekening, overeenkomende met 2193 voor Chr. Bij de geologen bekend als de Cimbrische vloed.


English)
From this writing it appears that it was land stretching far out to the west of Jutland, of which Heligoland and the islands of North Friesland are the last barren remnants. This event, which occasioned a great dispersion of the Frisian tribe/clan, became the commencement of a chronological reckoning corresponding with 2193 before Christ, and is known by geologists as the Cimbrian flood.

http://www.friesgeno...n/olbottema.htm



Anway... HURRAYYYY !!!!!

Netherlands - Brasil : 2-1






#51    Alewyn

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:21 PM

For now, I am going to watch Brazil getting thumped
[/quote]

Howzat! I told you Brazil was on their way home.

In my previous posting there are two errors:
"Scientists estimate that the Thera eruption of ca 1627 -1630 BC had a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index)of between 6 and 7 which would make it anything from 100 to 1000 times bigger than the Mt.St Helens eruption in 1980 in the USA or the eruption that destroyed Pompeii. Both of these had an approximate VEI of 5. Although this eruption occured near Greece, one can reasonably infer that it must have caused massive tidal waves as far away as the Netherlands and beyond"
1. It should read ca 1627-[u]1613[/u] BC, and
2. The eruption was 10-100 times bigger than Mt St.Helens. (an increase of one on the scale represents a 10-fold increase in the size of the explosion.) I was in a hurry to get to the soccer.


#52    Abramelin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:45 PM

OK, I hope I can stay sober enough to post, lol.

Alewyn, even if the blast was of a larger magintude, the resulting tsunami or tidal wave would never reach the North Sea.

And what do you think of Ottema's opinion? Him being the first translator of the original manuscript, the translation on which all later English translations are based on?


#53    Abramelin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 06:06 PM

///

Say moderators, check that editing tool, ok?

Edited by Abramelin, 02 July 2010 - 06:25 PM.


#54    Abramelin

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 06:23 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 July 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Well, it was Ottema, the first translator - and on whose translation the later English translation are based - had a different opinion:

From Ottema:

(Dutch)
Uit dit geschrift blijkt, dat het een uitgestrekt land geweest is ten westen van Jutland, waarvan Helgoland en de Noordfriesche eilanden de laatste schamele overblijfselen zijn. Deze gebeurtenis, waardoor het schijnt dat een groote verstrooijing van den Frieschen stam veroorzaakt is, was het aanvangspunt eener eigene tijdrekening, overeenkomende met 2193 voor Chr. Bij de geologen bekend als de Cimbrische vloed.


English)
From this writing it appears that it was land stretching far out to the west of Jutland, of which Heligoland and the islands of North Friesland are the last barren remnants. This event, which occasioned a great dispersion of the Frisian tribe/clan, became the commencement of a chronological reckoning corresponding with 2193 before Christ, and is known by geologists as the Cimbrian flood.

http://www.friesgeno...n/olbottema.htm



Anway... HURRAYYYY !!!!!

Netherlands - Brasil : 2-1







In case you didn't know, I will tell you that this quote is new for me too.

It was first published in 1871, and I wonder... how much was known of the submerged area in the North Sea back then?? The fishermen in the 19th cetury knew of the Doggerbank, but nothing at all about the rest of the submerged area. OK, maybe people back then did indeed know of the western half of Denmark that got flooded around 1500 BC and inspired Juergen Spanuth for his "Atlantis in the North" theory (he also assumed that was the place of origin of some of the Sea Peoples that invaded Egypt).

In the Doggerland thread I once posted an old bathymetric map (a very accurate one), but as far as I remember it was from the 20th century, anyway, far later than Ottema's publication. I will try to find it again.

EDIT:

Here it is, and I am not sure, but the link says '1906', 35 years after Ottema published

Posted Image


EDIT:

You always ask people to read your posts carefully, but I now ask you to read the Doggerland  thread in full, and very carefully.

If you ever publish a second edition of your book, you better take notice of what I posted in the Doggerland thread.

In case you do, don't bother about me, I just posted the work of other people, and did nothing but add my opinion.

Copy and paste to your heart's content.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 July 2010 - 06:55 PM.


#55    Qoais

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 02:56 AM

Abe - you're driving me crazy.  Are you for or against the Oera Linda Book now?  Are you saying the map is proof that Ottema was correct?  

What ARE you saying?

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#56    Alewyn

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 07:32 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 02 July 2010 - 04:45 PM, said:

OK, I hope I can stay sober enough to post, lol.

Alewyn, even if the blast was of a larger magintude, the resulting tsunami or tidal wave would never reach the North Sea.

And what do you think of Ottema's opinion? Him being the first translator of the original manuscript, the translation on which all later English translations are based on?

Rise and shine Abramelin. I hope you are OK after yesterday's victory celebrations.

Herewith something from Wkikpedia which you may find interesting. They say that Krakatoa erupted in 1883 with a VEI of approximately 6 i.e. some 13 000 times bigger than the Hirosjima bomb. This would appear to be the same size or smaller than the Thera explosion of ca 1627-1613 BC. Note the effects:

" 1883 eruption of Krakatoa
While seismic activity around the volcano was intense in the years preceding the cataclysmic 1883 eruption, a series of lesser eruptions beginning in mid-June 1883 led up to the disaster. The volcano released huge plumes of steam and ash lasting until late August.
On August 27, a series of four huge explosions almost entirely destroyed the island. The explosions were so violent that they were heard 3,500 km (2,200 mi) away in Perth, Western Australia and the island of Rodrigues near Mauritius, 4,800 km (3,000 mi) away.[5] The pressure wave from the final explosion was recorded on barographs around the world, which continued to register it up to 5 days after the explosion. The recordings show that the shockwave from the final explosion reverberated around the globe 7 times in total. Ash was propelled to a height of 80 km (50 mi).
The combined effects of pyroclastic flows, volcanic ashes, and tsunamis had disastrous results in the region. The official death toll recorded by the Dutch authorities was 36,417, although some sources put the estimate at more than 120,000. There are numerous documented reports of groups of human skeletons floating across the Indian Ocean on rafts of volcanic pumice and washing up on the east coast of Africa, up to a year after the eruption.
Average global temperatures fell by as much as 1.2 degrees Celsius in the year following the eruption. Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888."

Remember, the OLB is actually not talking about tsunamis (or tidal waves as I incorrectly stated on my previous posting). The book merely describe very rough seas ("wild waves" and "many a good ship was lost"). The Thera explosion in question would definitly have had a noticeable effect in the North Sea - especially on shipping.

As for Doggerland and Dr. Ottema: As I stated earlier, I believe he may have made a wrong assumption that Atland was close to the coast of Europe. The OLB does not say that.
Your knowledge of the Doggerbank is much better than mine and I accept your point that the doggerbank sank long before 2193 BC.  This would also support my view that the Doggerbank could not have been the Frisians' "Altland". In fact, the first time I became aware of Doggerbank is when I heard it from you. MY book deals with the period post 2193 BC. I would therefore be the wrong guy to ask about Doggerland.

By the way: On one of your other postings you hint at a possible second edition of my book. I can't even get you guys to read the first edition!


#57    Essan

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 10:21 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 03 July 2010 - 07:32 AM, said:

Remember, the OLB is actually not talking about tsunamis (or tidal waves as I incorrectly stated on my previous posting). The book merely describe very rough seas ("wild waves" and "many a good ship was lost"). The Thera explosion in question would definitly have had a noticeable effect in the North Sea - especially on shipping.


'Fraid I have to disagree on that.  Waves - rough seas - are caused by winds.  There is no physical way any volcanic eruption could have any direct effect on the waters of the North Sea.  

A typical cyclonic depression in winter, on the other hand - such as that which caused the 1952 disaster - would be a very different matter.  I think Thera is a complete red herring.

Edited by Essan, 03 July 2010 - 10:22 AM.

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#58    Abramelin

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 12:20 PM

View PostAlewyn, on 03 July 2010 - 07:32 AM, said:

Rise and shine Abramelin. I hope you are OK after yesterday's victory celebrations.

Herewith something from Wkikpedia which you may find interesting. They say that Krakatoa erupted in 1883 with a VEI of approximately 6 i.e. some 13 000 times bigger than the Hirosjima bomb. This would appear to be the same size or smaller than the Thera explosion of ca 1627-1613 BC. Note the effects:

" 1883 eruption of Krakatoa
While seismic activity around the volcano was intense in the years preceding the cataclysmic 1883 eruption, a series of lesser eruptions beginning in mid-June 1883 led up to the disaster. The volcano released huge plumes of steam and ash lasting until late August.
On August 27, a series of four huge explosions almost entirely destroyed the island. The explosions were so violent that they were heard 3,500 km (2,200 mi) away in Perth, Western Australia and the island of Rodrigues near Mauritius, 4,800 km (3,000 mi) away.[5] The pressure wave from the final explosion was recorded on barographs around the world, which continued to register it up to 5 days after the explosion. The recordings show that the shockwave from the final explosion reverberated around the globe 7 times in total. Ash was propelled to a height of 80 km (50 mi).
The combined effects of pyroclastic flows, volcanic ashes, and tsunamis had disastrous results in the region. The official death toll recorded by the Dutch authorities was 36,417, although some sources put the estimate at more than 120,000. There are numerous documented reports of groups of human skeletons floating across the Indian Ocean on rafts of volcanic pumice and washing up on the east coast of Africa, up to a year after the eruption.
Average global temperatures fell by as much as 1.2 degrees Celsius in the year following the eruption. Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888."

Remember, the OLB is actually not talking about tsunamis (or tidal waves as I incorrectly stated on my previous posting). The book merely describe very rough seas ("wild waves" and "many a good ship was lost"). The Thera explosion in question would definitly have had a noticeable effect in the North Sea - especially on shipping.

As for Doggerland and Dr. Ottema: As I stated earlier, I believe he may have made a wrong assumption that Atland was close to the coast of Europe. The OLB does not say that.
Your knowledge of the Doggerbank is much better than mine and I accept your point that the doggerbank sank long before 2193 BC.  This would also support my view that the Doggerbank could not have been the Frisians' "Altland". In fact, the first time I became aware of Doggerbank is when I heard it from you. MY book deals with the period post 2193 BC. I would therefore be the wrong guy to ask about Doggerland.

By the way: On one of your other postings you hint at a possible second edition of my book. I can't even get you guys to read the first edition!

Yeah, my head hurted even when I blink with my eyes, but now I'm ok.

-

Now you use the Krakatoa eruption to prove your point, but I think you do not understand MY point...

MY point is that the resulting tsunami from  the erupting Thera volcano would not have gone 'around corners'. It would not have passed Italy, Sicily, the protruding coast of Tunesia, and finally the narrow passage through the Strait of Gibralter. then turn north, then again north-east up the Channel, to finally enter the North Sea with  the same hight and magnitude as it had from it's start.

No doubt the Thera volcano would have influenced the weather back then, and that is all the people in the North Sea would have experienced as result of that eruption.

To give a more recent example: the tsunami of december 2004 only caused flooding and high waves on the coasts that were directly in it's path. In Japan nothing like that was noticed.

But... if on the other hand a volcano on the south-east coast of Iceland had erupted violently (to be honest, I don't even know if there is a volcano located directly on the south-east coast of Iceland), yes, then the people around the North Sea would have experienced more than just bad weather...

-

I still think Ottema's remark is interesting for I think (but maybe I am wrong) nothing or not much was known in the 19th century about what lay beneath the North Sea. And the official date of the Cimbrian Flood was somewhere around 400 BC; it's Spanuth who suggested in 1950 it happened much earlier, and around 1500 BC.

-

You say you are talking around the period after 2193 BC, but hey, if scientists are able to prove Dogger Island stayed above sea level far longer after 6100 BC- let's say until... 2193 BC, would that not be important for your theory ?? If these writers I mentioned (Deruelle, Tristan) are right, and that Doggerland/Dogger Island stayed above sea level until 3000 BC and even later because of dikes, and if they are right it was the center and place of origin of the Megalithic Culture, and if the people living there sailed into the Mediterranean, would that not be a good thing for the OLB???


#59    Abramelin

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 01:44 PM

View PostQoais, on 03 July 2010 - 02:56 AM, said:

Abe - you're driving me crazy.  Are you for or against the Oera Linda Book now?  Are you saying the map is proof that Ottema was correct?  

What ARE you saying?


My doubts are caused by the really silly etymology of the OLB, but I am honest enough to say that Ottema made an interesting point.

And maybe you will remember that I once said in the Doggerland thread that although I was convinced the OLB is a hoax (or a mystification as Jensma put it; he says it wasn't meant to fool people, it was meant to show people how easy it is to create a mystification, or even something of a new religion), the people who created the OLB may have used some ancient myths of the countries surrounding the present North Sea.


#60    Abramelin

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 10:09 PM

An example of an old Frisian legend as may have been used by the ones creating the OLB :


Frisian Fosite

According to Alcuin's Life of St. Willebrord, the saint visited an island between Frisia and Denmark that was sacred to Fosite and was called Fositesland after the god worshipped there. There was a sacred spring from which water had to be drawn in silence, it was so holy. Willebrord defiled the spring by baptizing people in it and killing a cow there.[8] Altfrid tells the same story of St. Liudger.[10] Adam of Bremen retells the story and adds that the island was Heiligland, i.e., Heligoland.[11]


There is also a legend of the origins of the Lex Frisionum, the written Frisian law. Wishing to assemble written lawcodes for all his subject peoples, Charlemagne summoned twelve representatives of the Frisian people, the Asegas ("law-speakers"), and demanded they recite their people's laws. When they could not do so after several days, he let them choose between death, slavery, or being set adrift in a rudderless boat. They chose the last and prayed for help, whereupon a thirteenth man appeared, with a golden axe on his shoulder. He steered the boat to land with the axe, then threw it ashore; a spring appeared where it landed. He taught them laws and then disappeared.[12][13] The stranger and the spring are identified with Fosite and the sacred spring of Fositesland.

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber).[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti