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Why would anyone want religion to be true?

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#16    J. K.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:23 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

So the main point of my essay is this: If a religion were true, it has two furthers implications. Either, the god of that specific religion is an inept creator, most of his creations dying out, who has created a species of higher primate (us) that are morally superior or that the god of that specific religion is evil, callous and indifferent to the well being of us, let alone any other animal.


Let me preface this by saying that I'm giving an opinion based on the context of the Bible, which you bring up as a source of information.

The two implications you gave are somewhat limited: an imposition of finite human views on a infinite spiritual being.  Within the context of the Bible:  portions of God's creation went extinct as an extended result of man's irresponsibility with what he had been given.  Man had been given stewardship of the earth, but handed that authority over to God's opponent...sort of like global warming on the spiritual level.

I don't fully understand this statement:  "who has created a species of higher primate (us) that are morally superior".  We are morally superior to whom?

As for God being evil or callous, the New Testament reveals the fallacy of that statement.

Again, I am replying to the original post in the context of using the Bible as a source of information about God.  I do not wish this thread to get derailed by "the Bible isn't true" or "God isn't real".

Edited: and I don't know why my posts keep ending up with different font sizes....

Edited by J. K., 19 September 2013 - 02:24 PM.

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#17    libstaK

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:24 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

The only thing that separates a deist from a Christian is the bible. So why would anyone wish the bible to be true? Why would anyone wish a totalitarian leader to have access to your inner most thoughts, to never leave you alone and to constantly watch over you. Why would you want to worship a being that created millions and millions of different species of animals, only to have 99% of them go extinct. Some creator.
God didn't just create the world and it's animals, he also created his "Kingdom of Heaven" which is not of this world.  What dies to this material life, therefore lives on elsewhere ... there is no extinction, just change.  If we don't die in the material world, we actually will not experience this change.

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So the main point of my essay is this: If a religion were true, it has two furthers implications. Either, the god of that specific religion is an inept creator, most of his creations dying out, who has created a species of higher primate (us) that are morally superior or that the god of that specific religion is evil, callous and indifferent to the well being of us, let alone any other animal.
If you believe in God you believe in the eternity of the soul - where is the callousness in creating a "joy ride" of material life for a soul to experience?  Is a ride really thrilling if it doesn't create fears and challenges, nothing ventured (or risked) nothing gained right?  Resting on a cloud with a harp could get pretty old pretty quickly if you have an eternity to experience a great many things instead me thinks.

Edited by libstaK, 19 September 2013 - 02:26 PM.

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#18    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:52 PM

The way the OP is approaching this seems to me to not be a genuine search for why people want or don't want religion to be true but instead a back door effort to proselytize his or her Christian religion.  I wish people who want to preach to the rest of us would just do it and not be so obscure and "subtle."


#19    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:24 PM

I'm going to share a story. It's something that happened to me fairly recently. At first it may not seem to relate to the question of the OP, but I beg some indulgence, I assure that it will make sense!

About 15 months ago I left Sydney to improve my chances of employment fulltime. Unfortunately, in December I gave that up because my father passed away and I came home to look after mum fulltime. On returning to Sydney I became reacquainted with my contacts here. I learnt that while I was gone one friend had been stabbed 18 times by their ex boyfriend. Since that day she had turned to heroin to deal with her ordeal. She tried to give it up without medical help and had a psychotic break. She was in a mental health ward of the local hospital. I went to see her to make sure she was ok, support her anyway I could.

I told her new boyfriend that I'd gone to see her. He hadn't bothered visiting. Upon hearing my comment he said "do you want to **** her". Apologies for language, I'm using a quote from him. I said "no". He was incredulous and replied, "so why did you visit her, then"? Vocally I said "she's my friend". In my heart my real thoughts were as follows: "if you need to ask me that question in the first place you'll never understand".

I get the feeling like this is something similar.  If you need to ask why we want to believe in religion, then you'll never understand to begin with.

Sorry for the long way around, but I hope you see my meaning now :)

Edited by Paranoid Android, 19 September 2013 - 03:41 PM.

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#20    DeWitz

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 September 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

The way the OP is approaching this seems to me to not be a genuine search for why people want or don't want religion to be true but instead a back door effort to proselytize his or her Christian religion.  I wish people who want to preach to the rest of us would just do it and not be so obscure and "subtle."

That's interesting, Frank, because I get a very different impression--that "Skepticism 1" has already reached his or her conclusions for said essay-in-the-making-- "So the main point of my essay is this. . ."  and could in fact write it more easily from final page back backwards to the first. (See especially the last few sentences of the OP.)

@Paranoid Android: That is a fine story and well told. Your 'thought balloon' was telling. This new relationship doesn't seem to bode well for your struggling friend.

Edited by szentgyorgy, 19 September 2013 - 03:34 PM.

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#21    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:49 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 19 September 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

@Paranoid Android: That is a fine story and well told. Your 'thought balloon' was telling. This new relationship doesn't seem to bode well for your struggling friend.
Thanks. Believe it or not, as I read over my post I began to cry.  I'm crying as I attempt to compose this response. But on a good note, I think this so-called boyfriend has been unmasked. I'll call her tomorrow morning to see how things are. I'll let you know :)

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#22    DeWitz

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 19 September 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Thanks. Believe it or not, as I read over my post I began to cry.  I'm crying as I attempt to compose this response. But on a good note, I think this so-called boyfriend has been unmasked. I'll call her tomorrow morning to see how things are. I'll let you know :)

You are a good friend to have.

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#23    Sherapy

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 19 September 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'm going to share a story. It's something that happened to me fairly recently. At first it may not seem to relate to the question of the OP, but I beg some indulgence, I assure that it will make sense!

About 15 months ago I left Sydney to improve my chances of employment fulltime. Unfortunately, in December I gave that up because my father passed away and I came home to look after mum fulltime. On returning to Sydney I became reacquainted with my contacts here. I learnt that while I was gone one friend had been stabbed 18 times by their ex boyfriend. Since that day she had turned to heroin to deal with her ordeal. She tried to give it up without medical help and had a psychotic break. She was in a mental health ward of the local hospital. I went to see her to make sure she was ok, support her anyway I could.

I told her new boyfriend that I'd gone to see her. He hadn't bothered visiting. Upon hearing my comment he said "do you want to **** her". Apologies for language, I'm using a quote from him. I said "no". He was incredulous and replied, "so why did you visit her, then"? Vocally I said "she's my friend". In my heart my real thoughts were as follows: "if you need to ask me that question in the first place you'll never understand".

I get the feeling like this is something similar.  If you need to ask why we want to believe in religion, then you'll never understand to begin with.

Sorry for the long way around, but I hope you see my meaning now :)


Pa,


The way I interpret your story is the boyfriend was asking what your intentions were with his Girlfriend. How can he know unless he asks you?


I think this applies to religion/beliefs, too. I am asked all the time why I am an Atheist and I welcome the question-- as it gives me the opportunity to give my perspective and create a climate of unity and understanding.

It is through questions, I gain clarity in situations(especially when I have not spent time with the person and do not know them.) It is through this clarity that I gain understanding of the other person and then contribute/create respectful dialogs that are based in mutual understanding.

I hope your friend gets better.

Edited by Sherapy, 19 September 2013 - 04:36 PM.




#24    LostSouls7

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:56 PM

I am not sure. I don't like bible prophecies about
bad things happening or the world ending.

It just seems so dark and grim.

I don't live in fear of The End or hell....

I live close to nature...

yes I have mortal standards.. I don't do harm to others as I don't want them to me..
only in self defense..

Next I don't go around having sex all over town,
well because of child support or getting STDS...

let's be honest if you get an STD or have to pay child support YOU
have to deal with it... God doesn't get affected by it.

I feel at peace with the creator and the earth..and energy.....

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#25    LostSouls7

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:58 PM

Also I believe a lot of people want the bible to be true...
because they hate their lives and are not happy..

Let's be honest a person who is rich... have a lover or soul mate.
is having fun in life.. does NOT want the world to end.

But the people who have nothing to live for..
and think a magical new world perfect heaven is the answer..
want to die.. or the world to end.
It's all elementary my dear watson

you have find heaven on earth if you really seek it...
wisdom is the key to immortality

Edited by LostSouls7, 19 September 2013 - 04:59 PM.

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#26    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:01 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 September 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

God was there. Who do you think put the people in the right place and time to rescue this girl and her children.  The same being that put the gentleman here inthe states to rescue the three ladies from their ten yer ordeal.  And, the same being who in 1989 had the earth quake when there was the fewest number on the freeway or sleeping.

You must be joking, god was there for them? but only after their years and years of torture right? What about the 9 million children a year who die before there 5. Where is god for them.


#27    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

View PostJ. K., on 19 September 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

[/size]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm giving an opinion based on the context of the Bible, which you bring up as a source of information.

The two implications you gave are somewhat limited: an imposition of finite human views on a infinite spiritual being.  Within the context of the Bible:  portions of God's creation went extinct as an extended result of man's irresponsibility with what he had been given.  Man had been given stewardship of the earth, but handed that authority over to God's opponent...sort of like global warming on the spiritual level.

I don't fully understand this statement:  "who has created a species of higher primate (us) that are morally superior".  We are morally superior to whom?

As for God being evil or callous, the New Testament reveals the fallacy of that statement.

Again, I am replying to the original post in the context of using the Bible as a source of information about God.  I do not wish this thread to get derailed by "the Bible isn't true" or "God isn't real".

Edited: and I don't know why my posts keep ending up with different font sizes....

No most of the extinction happened before humans were even evolved.


#28    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 19 September 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'm going to share a story. It's something that happened to me fairly recently. At first it may not seem to relate to the question of the OP, but I beg some indulgence, I assure that it will make sense!

About 15 months ago I left Sydney to improve my chances of employment fulltime. Unfortunately, in December I gave that up because my father passed away and I came home to look after mum fulltime. On returning to Sydney I became reacquainted with my contacts here. I learnt that while I was gone one friend had been stabbed 18 times by their ex boyfriend. Since that day she had turned to heroin to deal with her ordeal. She tried to give it up without medical help and had a psychotic break. She was in a mental health ward of the local hospital. I went to see her to make sure she was ok, support her anyway I could.

I told her new boyfriend that I'd gone to see her. He hadn't bothered visiting. Upon hearing my comment he said "do you want to **** her". Apologies for language, I'm using a quote from him. I said "no". He was incredulous and replied, "so why did you visit her, then"? Vocally I said "she's my friend". In my heart my real thoughts were as follows: "if you need to ask me that question in the first place you'll never understand".

I get the feeling like this is something similar.  If you need to ask why we want to believe in religion, then you'll never understand to begin with.

Sorry for the long way around, but I hope you see my meaning now :)

Chilling story, if completely irrelevant. I'm asking you why you believe in it, in the pursuit of knowledge on the average Christian person, not to understand the religion, i understand perfectly well despite your ingratiating condescension.


#29    J. K.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

No most of the extinction happened before humans were even evolved.

According to evolution, yes.  However, the questions you asked needed clarification from the Bible, the document about God that you yourself brought up.  Your questions revealed a lack of knowledge about the context.  That would be similar to me asking questions about evolution without accepting Darwin as a source of information.

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#30    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:23 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 September 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

The way the OP is approaching this seems to me to not be a genuine search for why people want or don't want religion to be true but instead a back door effort to proselytize his or her Christian religion.  I wish people who want to preach to the rest of us would just do it and not be so obscure and "subtle."

I can assure you that is not the case, am curious as to what would make you think that though






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