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#16    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 25 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

The English and the Irish are so fundamentally different that its a shame that the shared language confuses the English into thinking we are the same.

Unfortunately the Irish still have a victim culture carried over from Colonial times which makes it difficult for them to take responsibility for their own national character flaws and mistakes. The English are fairly straightforward people who tend to take you as you come without prejudging you. The Irish and the Welsh at least will prejudge you - place you in a little labelled box and never change their opinion of you from that day forward.  Tradition is fairly much ignored in England but tends to be the defining quality of the Celtic fringes.

Just my observations from having lived as an English/Irish man in both England and Ireland.

Br Cornelius

Yet, you stereotyped Irish people and Welsh people. You should have thrown in the Highlanders too. ;) Seriously, I thought that you were psychic after I read your post. You mentioned something that I thought about today. I wondered if "Celts" tended to be more conservative and traditional than "Saxons". I guessed that they did. I somewhat based my guess on Americans with roots in Celtic countries/regions. I always doubted that PC nonsense would be tolerated in County Cork. It never went over big in South Boston or the Appalachians. I found your post to be fascinating for a couple reasons, and I also wondered about something else. Could you determine folks origins based on their physical characteristics?

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#17    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:23 AM

View PostTheLastLazyGun, on 25 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Many Irish (and other so-called "Celts" of the British Isles, even though they are nothing of the sort) are now fond of telling the English that they are not Anglo-Saxon but are actually "Celtic" like them, even though genetic studies show otherwise.

Relatively few continental Celts settled in the British Isles. They shared aspects of culture and language with contemperaneous British and Irish people, though. For instance, they all revered druids. They were a bit different in genetics, though (different types of R1b). The insular Celts shared genetic origins with contemporary Basques. "Celt" and "Saxon" largely are antiquated, Victorian conceits used to divide people at times. The Germanic tribes genetic legacy is limited to specific areas. As you know, its concentration is higher in the eastern regions than in the western regions, but it still impacts many modern English people.

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#18    Eldorado

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 26 March 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

I sometimes can do that. It's relatively easy to notice disparities between northern Asians and southern Asians. Of course, Asian people notice differences that I likely will miss. The same kind of rule might apply to people who live in the British Isles.

Nah.  We all look the same.  It's only the accents that give us away and those are more regional than national.


#19    Arbenol68

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 26 March 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:



They also descend from darker-featured people. Lighter-featured people tend to live in the eastern regions while darker-featured people tend to live in the western regions.

Interesting theory. Can you back it up?


#20    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:21 AM

The best way to specify someone is by their clothes, next by their gestures, then by their accent.  Just looking at someone produces only generalities.

I can identify an overseas Vietnamese from a native pretty much only by clothes, but they are always a dead giveaway.


#21    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:27 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 26 March 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Yet, you stereotyped Irish people and Welsh people. You should have thrown in the Highlanders too. ;) Seriously, I thought that you were psychic after I read your post. You mentioned something that I thought about today. I wondered if "Celts" tended to be more conservative and traditional than "Saxons". I guessed that they did. I somewhat based my guess on Americans with roots in Celtic countries/regions. I always doubted that PC nonsense would be tolerated in County Cork. It never went over big in South Boston or the Appalachians. I found your post to be fascinating for a couple reasons, and I also wondered about something else. Could you determine folks origins based on their physical characteristics?
The Irish and English look different. I could spot an Irish person about 60% of the time. There are some definate Irish types.
You have to remember that up until recently most Irish never travelled further than 50miles from where they were born, and that it was encouraged to marry close to the family to prevent dilution of property rights.

It often sounds like stereotyping until you have lived on both sides of the fence.

Br Cornelius

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#22    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:24 AM

View PostEldorado, on 26 March 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Nah.  We all look the same.  It's only the accents that give us away and those are more regional than national.

That sounds like the straight scoop. British people and Irish people are both from northwest Europe. It stands to reason that they would look like each other. Some sources make them sound like unique races.

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#23    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:33 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 26 March 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Interesting theory. Can you back it up?

Look at genetic and settlement maps, as well as history. You find more descendants of Germanic tribes in the east. You find more descendants of aboriginal groups in the west. Then, we have the Danelaw region. Appearance corresponds with genetics if we go from east to west. That's not to say that there won't be exceptions to the rule. It's a general trend. Of course, people, who live and/or work in the British Isles, know *much* more about it than I do.

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#24    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:40 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 March 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

The best way to specify someone is by their clothes, next by their gestures, then by their accent.  Just looking at someone produces only generalities.

I can identify an overseas Vietnamese from a native pretty much only by clothes, but they are always a dead giveaway.

You made a good point about culture. I wondered about certain items that I read on historical and scientific web sites, though. They claimed that there was observable variation in the appearances of the "tribes" of the British Isles. I thought that this might have been overstated, but I also thought that it might have been based in reality to a certain extent.

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#25    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:55 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 March 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

The Irish and English look different. I could spot an Irish person about 60% of the time. There are some definate Irish types.
You have to remember that up until recently most Irish never travelled further than 50miles from where they were born, and that it was encouraged to marry close to the family to prevent dilution of property rights.

It often sounds like stereotyping until you have lived on both sides of the fence.

Br Cornelius

Thanks for the information. I have roots in both countries, but I likely don't look like a native of either country. The stereotype of Irish and Scottish people is that many or most of them have red hair. We know that's a bit of a myth. It's my understanding that the majority of "Celts" have dark hair with light eyes whereas "Saxons" tend to have lighter hair. Is this close to the truth? If so, it reflects settling patterns, but I might be oversimplifying things. For example, Ireland has a multitude of phenotypes, from what I see.

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#26    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:00 AM

BTW, not to sound like I'm sixteen, but I have a question. What country and/or region contains the best looking people? That's a subjective thing, but I'm curious to hear various opinions. Feel free to ask questions about Americans too.

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#27    Br Cornelius

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:28 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 27 March 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

Thanks for the information. I have roots in both countries, but I likely don't look like a native of either country. The stereotype of Irish and Scottish people is that many or most of them have red hair. We know that's a bit of a myth. It's my understanding that the majority of "Celts" have dark hair with light eyes whereas "Saxons" tend to have lighter hair. Is this close to the truth? If so, it reflects settling patterns, but I might be oversimplifying things. For example, Ireland has a multitude of phenotypes, from what I see.
Appearance can vary significantly between regions. The Irish tend to be heavier set than the English with fairer skin. Red hair probably accounts for just 5% of the Irish population - bu8t its a very distinctive Irish red and type.

Br Cornelius

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#28    Detective Mystery 2013

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 27 March 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Appearance can vary significantly between regions. The Irish tend to be heavier set than the English with fairer skin. Red hair probably accounts for just 5% of the Irish population - bu8t its a very distinctive Irish red and type.

Br Cornelius

I might be able to pass as Welsh. I have dark hair and dark eyes, which are atypical for most of the Isles. I think that many Welsh people look like the first inhabitants. BTW, I'm surprised to hear that Irish folks are thicker than English folks. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Scottish people are fatter. Their diets are worse than ordinary Americans' diets, and that's really saying something! They evidently eat fried candy bars, which sounds like something that we would do. We're right up there with you guys when it comes to eating and drinking too much.

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#29    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:05 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 28 March 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

I might be able to pass as Welsh. I have dark hair and dark eyes, which are atypical for most of the Isles. I think that many Welsh people look like the first inhabitants. BTW, I'm surprised to hear that Irish folks are thicker than English folks. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Scottish people are fatter. Their diets are worse than ordinary Americans' diets, and that's really saying something! They evidently eat fried candy bars, which sounds like something that we would do. We're right up there with you guys when it comes to eating and drinking too much.

Anywhere where there is high relative poverty in the Western World will you find lots of fat and unhealthy people.

Br, I actually cannot tell the difference between Scottish people and Irish, and most of the time I can't tell the difference between English and the other two. I haven't met enough Welsh people to comment on that though.


#30    Br Cornelius

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 28 March 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Anywhere where there is high relative poverty in the Western World will you find lots of fat and unhealthy people.

Br, I actually cannot tell the difference between Scottish people and Irish, and most of the time I can't tell the difference between English and the other two. I haven't met enough Welsh people to comment on that though.
Off in the wild west  that people tend to be more destinctive. The Northern Irish and Scottish were very intermixed and I would say they look very similar.

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