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Atlantis


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#2116    M.A.D CapeBretoner

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:11 AM

Holy sheepshit that long since 09 then i must of said before on this one about my view of this topic.

Edited by M.A.D CapeBretoner, 07 March 2013 - 12:12 AM.


#2117    TheSearcher

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostQuaentum, on 05 March 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

An overview of the first episode of the series from December should give you an idea
Dear gods of Kobol, tell me you're joking.........but since it's History Channel, I doubt you are.

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#2118    Quaentum

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:17 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 08 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Dear gods of Kobol, tell me you're joking.........but since it's History Channel, I doubt you are.

The post was not a joke though the show certainly is.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
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I still say aliens built them!

#2119    kmt_sesh

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 06:03 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 March 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

It doesn't matter if it's been around longer it still doesn't make Atlantis real which is what you appeared to be implying in Post #2108. Discussing the validity or lack thereof of a subject, even over the long term, does not make it true.

cormac

Are you actually saying that if you keep repeating a mistake it won't eventually become a fact? Perish the thought!

Beating dead horses is ever so enjoyable.

There's no doubting that the subject of Atlantis has a hell of a lot of staying power at UM and any number of other internet forums out there. But to strike a balance, internet forums do not represent actual academic inquiry and it's exceedingly rare when a real historian even takes part in such internet discussions. We might benefit from the input of a Classicist or other specialist in ancient Mediterranean history. That being said, regardless of how often fringe and alternative proponents continue to bring up Atlantis, it won't make Atlantis any more real.

I've basically just parroted what you wrote, cormac, but it's late and I'm about to go to bed, and I'm too lazy right now to be original.

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#2120    Proclus

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:20 PM

There is a new Web page with introductory literature on Plato's Atlantis under an academic perspective:

http://www.atlantis-...ntroduction.htm

Maybe interesting for some of you!

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#2121    whitegandalf

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

http://www.alaska-in...71-pictures.htm

Could the tales from atlantis be second hand tales from a place far away which they only had trading relation with? Could it be that there were no elephants there after all? That atlantis only traded with tusks from the walrus. Which is almost identical material, shape,, colour and size. We know that these tusks was heavily traded by the peoples of the north sea from ancient stoneage until today.

The north sea should not be ruled out yet as a serious candidate. Their seafearing skills  and technology and trading routes was surpassed by none. Who knows what really happened 12000 years ago. As every single city and village of this culture lies underwater today and not discovered yet, it is foolish to rule it out.

The north sea invaded and settled in the mediterian 1300 years ago and a period during bronseage. Why not in stoneage too?

http://upload.wikime...g_Expansion.svg


#2122    Harte

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 01:22 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 13 April 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

http://www.alaska-in...71-pictures.htm

Could the tales from atlantis be second hand tales from a place far away which they only had trading relation with? Could it be that there were no elephants there after all? That atlantis only traded with tusks from the walrus. Which is almost identical material, shape,, colour and size. We know that these tusks was heavily traded by the peoples of the north sea from ancient stoneage until today.

The north sea should not be ruled out yet as a serious candidate. Their seafearing skills  and technology and trading routes was surpassed by none. Who knows what really happened 12000 years ago. As every single city and village of this culture lies underwater today and not discovered yet, it is foolish to rule it out.

The north sea invaded and settled in the mediterian 1300 years ago and a period during bronseage. Why not in stoneage too?

There exist no "tales from Atlantis."

There exists one "Tale of Atlantis."  It is an allegorical tale which admonishes the Greek society in the times of Plato.

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#2123    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:48 PM

View PostHarte, on 13 April 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

... It is an allegorical tale which admonishes the Greek society in the times of Plato.

Harte

Now, why can't the Atlantis crowd ever seem to see the simple truth behind that?

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#2124    third_eye

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:00 AM

I found Atlantis .... and I have woof ... I mean proof


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#2125    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:21 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 April 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:



Now, why can't the Atlantis crowd ever seem to see the simple truth behind that?

Since you seem 100 percent sure it dident exist, why dont you tell me your undisputable hard evidence (or your best) that the atlantis story is not inspired by a real story?

Have you explored the entire ocean floor everywhere to rule atlantis out?

Or are you a "special" person with magic powers that just know everything?




#2126    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:13 AM

Since the writings of Plato are the origin of the story of Atlantis and later writers were referencing his work as relates to the story, added to the fact that he gave it a specific location and timeframe that has never been validated by scientific research, then yes we can say that the place known as Atlantis by Plato didn't exist. This is not rocket science. As to inspiration it "might" have been inspired by stories of earlier peoples or places, but that doesn't make either Atlantis. That should also be obvious.

cormac

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#2127    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:46 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

Since the writings of Plato are the origin of the story of Atlantis and later writers were referencing his work as relates to the story, added to the fact that he gave it a specific location and timeframe that has never been validated by scientific research, then yes we can say that the place known as Atlantis by Plato didn't exist. This is not rocket science. As to inspiration it "might" have been inspired by stories of earlier peoples or places, but that doesn't make either Atlantis. That should also be obvious.

cormac

I do not agree that platon gave exact location for atlantis. He said it lied outside the medterian past the pillars. Inside the mediterian was one world, quite isolated. Outside was another world ruled by a different culture. You also asume that atlantis is one island, if you use ordinary logic, which seaculture in history only ruled over one island? All seaculture would have ruled over several islands. Perhaps hundreds. Therefor the kingdom of atlantis lied outside the pillars, not their main capital. It lied somewhere else. Also the greeks and egyptians would only have second hand information about atlantis as they themself was not a seaculture, and did not have the ships to travel to atlantis itself. It was a one way highway. The atlantians went to them and concured the mediterian, not the oposite.

I agree that past ten thousand years it probably did not exist a atlantis like culture, The evidence would have turned up. But backwards we have no possibility to rule a seaculture out, because the evidence is deep beneth water, and we know very little of these seacultures from that time, the time platon said it existed. The sealevel rised considerable around 10 000 years ago.

Also i can agree that a place that is 100 percent like the tales of atlantis did not exist, but then again no one is stating that. We are talking about tales from over ten thousand years ago, told by person to person. A second hand tale about a people far away which they probably never even visited. On the way some inacurasites might have gotten in the tales we read about today.

I also belive that the bible version of atlantis is the noah and the flood story. He lived amoung the gods, on the coast, in a seaculture. Built a large ship, which means they must have been quite good shipbuilders. It also says it rained in 40 days and 40 nights. This is not correct acording to the earlier sumer version. Therefor we can asume that the word IN does not means time but place. It rained in (location) 40 days and 40 nights. This is cordinates. This means the gods and noah lived around the arctic circel where there in the summer was sun all the time during 40 days and during the winter was dark for 40 days straight. I you travel along the coast from the pillars north you will find the place. If you go to far north it is 50 days, to far south 30 days. It is also a fact that during bronseage and backwards the calendar had 40 days, which fit perfectly for the gods life in the arctic circle. 40 x 9 months is 360 days. This is a very acurate calendar, and easier than today, where some months has 29 days and other 31.

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 02:26 AM.


#2128    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:57 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

I do not agree that platon gave exact location for atlantis. He said it lied outside the medterian past the pillars. Inside the mediterian was one world, quite isolated. Outside was another world ruled by a different culture. You also asume that atlantis is one island, if you use ordinary logic, which seaculture in history only ruled over one island? All seaculture would have ruled over several islands. Perhaps hundreds. Therefor the kingdom of atlantis lied outside the pillars, not their main capital. It lied somewhere else. Also the greeks and egyptians would only have second hand information about atlantis as they themself was not a seaculture, and did not have the ships to travel to atlantis itself. It was a one way highway. The atlantians went to them and concured the mediterian, not the oposite.

I agree that past ten thousand years it probably did not exist a atlantis like culture, but backwards we have no possibility to rule a seaculture out, because the evidence is deep beneth water, and we know very little of these seacultures from that time, the time platon said it existed.

Also i can agree that a place that is 100 percent like the tales of atlantis did not exist, but then again no one is stating that. We are talking about tales from over ten thousand years ago, told by person to person. A second hand tale about a people far away which they probably never even visited. On the way some inacurasites might have gotten in the tales we read about today.

You presume too much. What Plato actually said, in part, per the Timaeus:

Quote

...and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together...

and

Quote

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

So yes, he gave it a pretty specific location.

No evidence of any culture exists which can be shown to have conquered the eastern Mediterranean from an original location in or just outside the western Mediterranean.

cormac

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#2129    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:19 AM

Some texts say in front, some say outside. Different translations i guess. The difference is huge.

"No evidence of any culture exists which can be shown to have conquered the eastern Mediterranean from an original location in or just outside the western Mediterranean"

A culture far away from the mediterian did conquer lands inside the mediterian two times in history. Once during bronseage and once during vikingage. Both were cultures based around the north sea.  Both times land and islands were qonqured in the west and east mediterian. And both times it was a seaculture who did it, like atlantis was supposed to be a seaculture. Im just saying if it happened twice, why not a third time earlier during stoneage?

http://upload.wikime...g_Expansion.svg

" because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island"

What is so specific about that? Could this description only be in front of the pillars?

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 02:29 AM.


#2130    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:26 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Some texts say in front, some say outside. Different translations i guess. The difference is huge.

"No evidence of any culture exists which can be shown to have conquered the eastern Mediterranean from an original location in or just outside the western Mediterranean"

A culture far away from the mediterian did conquer lands inside the mediterian two times in history. Once during bronseage and once during vikingage. Both were cultures based around the north sea.  Both times land and islands were qonqured in the west and east mediterian. And both times it was a seaculture who did it, like atlantis was supposed to be a seaculture. Im just saying if it happened twice, why not a third time earlier during stoneage?

http://upload.wikime...g_Expansion.svg

Because there's not a shred of evidence in support of such a contention. It's that simple.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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