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The Miracles of Jesus


Riaan

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In my opinion the person who had become known as Jesus Christ was nothing but a callous, cold-blooded liar who deliberately misguided the simple-minded people of his time through trickery and illusions. For example, the coin in the fish would be the very first trick an aspiring illusionist would have to master. Likewise, if Christ had known that Lazarus was not dead as he was part of an elaborate hoax, the tears witnessed by bystanders would not have been tears of sorrow (see my interpretation of his ‘miracles’ here).

I am sure that many scholars and independent researchers must also have considered the possibility that all of Christ’s ‘miracles’ were illusions and deceptions, but I could not find much in the published literature. Michael Martin in his The Case Against Christianity (p. 153) does speculate “Did Jesus really walk on water or only appear to because he was walking on rocks below the surface? Did Jesus turn water into wine or did he only appear to because he substituted wine for water using a magician’s ploy (see my interpretation for one such scenario)?” It seems that most other authors are of the opinion that Christ’s miracles were either inventions (fiction), exaggerations, misunderstandings or true reports of events that were not truly ‘miracles'.

Could you please refer me to any published material on the possibility of deliberate deception by Christ, that you may be aware of?

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Which would be where?

Spirituality vs Skepticism - *Topic Moved*

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Could you please refer me to any published material on the possibility of deliberate deception by Christ, that you may be aware of?

This doesn't refer to a miracle, but rather a prophesy. Zechariah 9:9 prophesied that the King will enter Jerusalem riding on a donkey. According to the gospels Jesus fulfilled this prophesy by sending two disciples ahead to procure a donkey on which he then rides into Jerusalem. Was that deceiving the people?

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This doesn't refer to a miracle, but rather a prophesy. Zechariah 9:9 prophesied that the King will enter Jerusalem riding on a donkey. According to the gospels Jesus fulfilled this prophesy by sending two disciples ahead to procure a donkey on which he then rides into Jerusalem. Was that deceiving the people?

Derek, the miracles I am referring to are the famed miracles Christ supposedly conducted in the presence of others. This would include the changing of water into wine, walking on water and the raising of Lazarus.

I have an entirely different take on the Entry into Jerusalem episode.

From the manner in which you responded I get the impression that you are a Christian, which makes it rather difficult for us to debate the issue. However, all I actually want to know is where I can find published material that has come to similar conclusions that I have.

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This doesn't refer to a miracle, but rather a prophesy. Zechariah 9:9 prophesied that the King will enter Jerusalem riding on a donkey. According to the gospels Jesus fulfilled this prophesy by sending two disciples ahead to procure a donkey on which he then rides into Jerusalem. Was that deceiving the people?

Revelation 11:10

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

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Derek, the miracles I am referring to are the famed miracles Christ supposedly conducted in the presence of others. This would include the changing of water into wine,

To be honest, I remember as a kid watching a magician on TV doing the water into wine thing,I think the Guy was called David Nixon or something like that.Anyway if Jesus did exist I don't believe for one minute he was the son of some mythical deity. I honestly think a lot of his so-called miracles could be easily reproduced by a good magician.

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.....

Could you please refer me to any published material on the possibility of deliberate deception by Christ, that you may be aware of?

Let me guess ............ you are working on developing a ' Jesus - stage magician show ' ?

" And now ... to introduce my beautiful assistant " :

TXGLEpromise_culverphotog1.jpg

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Let me guess ............ you are working on developing a ' Jesus - stage magician show ' ?

Actually, not. On the Wikipedia page 'Miracles of Jesus' there is a category 'Non-religious views', but it cannot be updated with views similar to mine unless it has been published elsewhere.

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Derek, the miracles I am referring to are the famed miracles Christ supposedly conducted in the presence of others. This would include the changing of water into wine, walking on water and the raising of Lazarus.

I have an entirely different take on the Entry into Jerusalem episode.

From the manner in which you responded I get the impression that you are a Christian, which makes it rather difficult for us to debate the issue. However, all I actually want to know is where I can find published material that has come to similar conclusions that I have.

You can find anything to solidify your beliefs. Why would you want to? People have been trying to discount Jesus' miracles for centuries. Good luck with that.

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You can find anything to solidify your beliefs. Why would you want to? People have been trying to discount Jesus' miracles for centuries. Good luck with that.

True, but I think my suggestion about how He might have pulled off the raising of Lazarus is rather unique :)

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It's not as though dismissing the miracles is difficult. The character jesus in christian mythology possesses powers that we know aren't possible by a human. One does not need to dismiss them any more than one has to consciously dismiss the Arrows of Indra from Hindu mythology, Mjolnir's lightning powers from Norse mythology, or Amsterasu's carpet-bombing of peasants in Japanese mythology. They're stories, nothing more. To be discounted, they'd first need to be proved to have ever happened.

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Derek, the miracles I am referring to are the famed miracles Christ supposedly conducted in the presence of others. This would include the changing of water into wine, walking on water and the raising of Lazarus.

I have an entirely different take on the Entry into Jerusalem episode.

From the manner in which you responded I get the impression that you are a Christian, which makes it rather difficult for us to debate the issue. However, all I actually want to know is where I can find published material that has come to similar conclusions that I have.

My mother is a devout Catholic and my father was a confirmed atheist, so that led to me having a rather ambiguous view on Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter). However, I mentioned Jesus' "stage managed" entry into Jerusalem to suggest that he may have used similar stagecraft regarding the miracles. In the case of Lazarus I find it confusing that Jesus (John 11:4) says "This sickness is not unto death". If Lazarus was not going to die, then what is all the fuss regarding Jesus bringing him back from the dead?

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Deliberate deception is a tough one. There are so many incompatible, naturalistic and competitively plausible hypotheses. Jesus didn't exist at all, Jesus did exist, but the supernatural aspects were improved in the retellings, things that the disciples were doing were retrojected into the Jesus story (Jesus does very little that early Christians didn't also attribute to Peter, Paul or Mary ... not the 60's folk singers), ...

Also, to substantiate "deliberate deception" requires state-of-mind evidence - fat chance of finding that for a guy who very well may never have existed at all. Jesus might have been as credulous as any onlooker when one of his perfomances worked. My first "paranormal investigation" was a girl who thought she could really bend spoons with her mind. (Silly me, I watched her fingers, did likewise, and bent some metal myself. Even so, I still remember how weird it felt when the metal "went.")

The water-to-wine story is interesting. "John" and his readers must have known that this was a pagan "thing" for Dionysus festivals. Also, they must have known that it was a "trick" if and when it was actually performed (which doesn't necessarily involve "deception" - in some taverns, the beer turns green on Saint Patrick's Day ... nobody is "deceived;" meaning is more important than means).

Published material? I think accepting Gospel-Acts miracle stories as truthy reports of real natural events with unrealistic surface interpretations is kind of old fashioned. This short essay might explain what I mean:

http://www.pbs.org/w...sium/magic.html

All that, and Jesus is supposed to be some criminal master mind, too? Sheesh, next you'll be telling me that Mohammed was a carrivan robber.

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I am sure that many scholars and independent researchers must also have considered the possibility that all of Christ’s ‘miracles’ were illusions and deceptions, but I could not find much in the published literature.

Why are you sure of that? The reason you can't find any scholars with that view is you would first have to find scholars that believes Jesus was a real person and actually performed any of these miracles in the first place. No real scholars would see these miracles as factual events, meaning none would see them as illusions. If you were to find a book on this, it would be where ever people get those Ancient Aliens books.

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Sheesh, next you'll be telling me that Mohammed was a carrivan robber.

There is something I can believe! Let's run with that hypothesis!

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The reason you can't find any scholars with that view is you would first have to find scholars that believes Jesus was a real person and actually performed any of these miracles in the first place. No real scholars would see these miracles as factual events, meaning none would see them as illusions. If you were to find a book on this, it would be where ever people get those Ancient Aliens books.

KMzwG_f-maxage-0.gif

Well. guess this threads over. Looks like there's nothing to see here.

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All that, and Jesus is supposed to be some criminal master mind, too? Sheesh, next you'll be telling me that Mohammed was a carrivan robber.

Don't know if you're referring to my article on Christ as The Violent Messiah, but if Simon Peter was in fact Simon bar Gioras as reported by Josephus, the chances are quite good that 'Jesus' actually existed as well. Whether or not you agree with

Simon Peter

= Simon bar Jonah

= Simon bar Yonah[khir] (Hebrew)

= Simon bar Joachim (English)

= Simon bar Gioacchino (Latin, Italian)

= Simon bar Gioa[cchino]

= Simon bar Gioa / Giora / Gioras / Goia,

I find it astonishing that nobody seems to have noticed the link between Simon bar Giora and Agrippa/Albinus, ans Simon Peter and Agrippa/Albinus. Pure coincidence?

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I would like to know how Jesus tricked people into seeing him rise in the air, and disappear behind the clouds.

^.^

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

Jesus Myth Part II - Follow-up, Commentary, and Expansion

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

The Gospel of Mark as Reaction and Allegory

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

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I would like to know how Jesus tricked people into seeing him rise in the air, and disappear behind the clouds.

^.^

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

Josephus wrote about an Egyptian who had led a failed uprising against the Romans (Antiquities 20.8.6 (167– 172); War 2.13.5 (261–263)). In my book Barbelo I endeavour to prove that 'Jesus' and Paul were one and the same person - Paul was likewise accused of having been that very same Egyptian who had led the uprising by 4000 men who were murderers (Acts 21:37–38). That's your historical Jesus, and that confirms his violence.

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I am sure that many scholars and independent researchers must also have considered the possibility that all of Christ’s ‘miracles’ were illusions and deceptions, but I could not find much in the published literature.

It seems to me that Bible stories, including Jesus' "miracles," are not so much deliberate hoaxes as people improving the story in its many retellings. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

Doug

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It seems to me that Bible stories, including Jesus' "miracles," are not so much deliberate hoaxes as people improving the story in its many retellings. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

Doug

Some of them do, however, have a ring of authenticity about them, as if people really saw these miracles, but never suspected them to be the work of a con artist.

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Some of them do, however, have a ring of authenticity about them, as if people really saw these miracles, but never suspected them to be the work of a con artist.

It seems that a lot of the "magic savior" stuff was added later. The earlier versions of the story mostly stick to the basics. The add-ons make him seem more "god-like."

Doug

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It seems to me that Bible stories, including Jesus' "miracles," are not so much deliberate hoaxes as people improving the story in its many retellings. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

Doug

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