11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

The OLB 'kroder' or wheelbarrow carrying time around the Yule wheel has been created by someone who knew of the Chi-Rho sign with its alpha and omega, and changed the loop of the -P- (of Pax Christi) very creatively into a wheelbarrow.

Creatively, yes: look at the animation of the Little Dipper.

The OLB Kroder doesn't have a wheelbarrow on it.

-------------

Here's something interesting:

Although modern representations of the Chi-Rho sign represent the two lines crossing at ninety degree angles, the early examples of the Chi-Rho cross at an angle that is more vividly representative of the chi formed by the solar ecliptic path and the celestial equator. This image is most familiar in Plato's Timaeus,[10] where it is explained that the two bands which form the "world soul" (anima mundi) cross each other like the letter chi.[11] Not only did the two legs of the chi remind early Christians of the Cross, "it reminded them of the mystery of the pre-existent Christ, the Logos Theou, the Word of God, who extended himself through all things in order to establish peace and harmony in the universe," in Robert Grigg's words.[12] Hugo Rahner summarized the significance:

The two great circles of the heavens, the equator and the ecliptic, which, by intersecting each other form a sort of recumbent chi and about which the whole dome of the starry heavens swings in a wondrous rhythm, became for the Christian eye a heavenly cross.[13] Of Plato's image in Timaeus, Justin Martyr, the Christian apologist writing in the second century, found a prefiguration of the Cross,[14] and an early testimony may be the phrase in Didache, "sign of extension in heaven" (sēmeion ekpetaseōsen ouranō).[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

From Plato:
And thus the whole mixture out of which he cut these portions was all exhausted by him. This entire compound divided lengthways into two parts, which he joined to one another at the centre like the letter X, and bent them into a circular form, connecting them with themselves and each other at the point opposite to their original meeting-point; and, comprehending them in a uniform revolution upon the same axis, he made the one the outer and the other the inner circle." (Timaeus,


----------------
PS: I get kroder is wheelbarrow pusher or such in Dutch - the carrier of time is the wheelbarrow, yes, as the wheelbarrow goes around it creates time.

--------------
This is the 3 daughters of Waralden Olmai, who really should probably correspond with Frya, Lyda and Finda.



Finno-Ugric triads In the mythology of the Sámi, a triad of goddesses are responsible for childbirth and protecting children. Sáhráhkka, who lives in the fireplace, is responsible for pregnancy and the particular protector of girls. Juksáhkká, who lives in the area of the back doors, is responsible for turning some children into boys while they are in the womb (there was a belief that all children are female at the outset). Uksáhkká guards the main doors, and is responsible for protecting all young children. See: Sami mythology
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Triple_deity

Sahr,(lives in the fireplace - Lyda, strong heat?) Juks and Uks should be their names without the ahkka (which means female spirit).
Absolutely no resemblance from what I can tell, but still - they would be the equal.

-----------------

Nordic Norns:

20. Thence come the maidens
mighty in wisdom,
Three from the dwelling
down 'neath the tree;
Urth is one named,
Verthandi the next,--
On the wood they scored,--
and Skuld the third.
Laws they made there,
and life allotted
To the sons of men,
and set their fates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 December 2011 - 01:54 AM.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 19 December 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

The OLB Kroder doesn't have a wheelbarrow on it.

-------------

Here's something interesting:

Although modern representations of the Chi-Rho sign represent the two lines crossing at ninety degree angles, the early examples of the Chi-Rho cross at an angle that is more vividly representative of the chi formed by the solar ecliptic path and the celestial equator. This image is most familiar in Plato's Timaeus,[10] where it is explained that the two bands which form the "world soul" (anima mundi) cross each other like the letter chi.[11] Not only did the two legs of the chi remind early Christians of the Cross, "it reminded them of the mystery of the pre-existent Christ, the Logos Theou, the Word of God, who extended himself through all things in order to establish peace and harmony in the universe," in Robert Grigg's words.[12] Hugo Rahner summarized the significance:

The two great circles of the heavens, the equator and the ecliptic, which, by intersecting each other form a sort of recumbent chi and about which the whole dome of the starry heavens swings in a wondrous rhythm, became for the Christian eye a heavenly cross.[13] Of Plato's image in Timaeus, Justin Martyr, the Christian apologist writing in the second century, found a prefiguration of the Cross,[14] and an early testimony may be the phrase in Didache, "sign of extension in heaven" (sēmeion ekpetaseōsen ouranō).[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

From Plato:
And thus the whole mixture out of which he cut these portions was all exhausted by him. This entire compound divided lengthways into two parts, which he joined to one another at the centre like the letter X, and bent them into a circular form, connecting them with themselves and each other at the point opposite to their original meeting-point; and, comprehending them in a uniform revolution upon the same axis, he made the one the outer and the other the inner circle." (Timaeus,


----------------
PS: I get kroder is wheelbarrow pusher or such in Dutch - the carrier of time is the wheelbarrow, yes, as the wheelbarrow goes around it creates time.

--------------
This is the 3 daughters of Waralden Olmai, who really should probably correspond with Frya, Lyda and Finda.



Finno-Ugric triads In the mythology of the Sámi, a triad of goddesses are responsible for childbirth and protecting children. Sáhráhkka, who lives in the fireplace, is responsible for pregnancy and the particular protector of girls. Juksáhkká, who lives in the area of the back doors, is responsible for turning some children into boys while they are in the womb (there was a belief that all children are female at the outset). Uksáhkká guards the main doors, and is responsible for protecting all young children. See: Sami mythology
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Triple_deity

Sahr,(lives in the fireplace - Lyda, strong heat?) Juks and Uks should be their names without the ahkka (which means female spirit).
Absolutely no resemblance from what I can tell, but still - they would be the equal.

-----------------

Nordic Norns:

20. Thence come the maidens
mighty in wisdom,
Three from the dwelling
down 'neath the tree;
Urth is one named,
Verthandi the next,--
On the wood they scored,--
and Skuld the third.
Laws they made there,
and life allotted
To the sons of men,
and set their fates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns

This is very interesting, especially because the three norns have to do something with legislation, which plays an important role in the OLB.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 18 December 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:

Nice find. This is also a word/name connected with Time.

Another one that would be really great is the Fryan/Frisian word/combination of words, totalling 6 letters, and meaning 'the end'.... "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End"

-

Say Menno, on your site I searched through the list of books once owned by Over de Linden, and the one from Halbertsma's library.

I am sure an Over de Linden knew a lot about navigational calculations; I myself have a book about seamanship, "LEERBOEK DER ZEEVAARTKUNDE, bewerkt door (edited/adapted by) H. Tjepkema" (Noorduijn and Sons/Groningen, 1956), and he no doubt would know about the 'celestial' things I posted about here.

There are too many clues in the OLB about astronomy/astrology to just ignore.

Even a Halbertsma commented on an astrologer when analyzing the Van Haren chronicles.



"Finally"??

I already posted that one.

How about STERVA = to die as 6-letter word for the end.

[Knul]

From the very first moment I learned about the yuul-script I didn't much understand, why the script has been developed. One reason was to design letters,  but the other reason, that the script should be read clockwise as given in the examples puzzles me still today, because the script of the OLB is merely linear. Have you any idea ?

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 19 December 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

The OLB Kroder doesn't have a wheelbarrow on it.

The word "kroder" is an old Dutch word meaning wheelbarrow, or the one pushing it forward.

I showed you that long ago.

It looks almost exactly the same as the Little Dipper moving around the pole star.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 December 2011 - 12:54 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 07:38 AM, said:

How about STERVA = to die as 6-letter word for the end.

Of course I said that it would be nice if there was a 6-letter word or combination of words in the OLB meaning "the end" because of the Christian God saying  "I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am the Beginning and the End".

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 19 December 2011 - 12:56 AM, said:

This is not a screen shot of the pic in my book but this star chart/wheel shows the time around the edge -


http://www.amazon.co.../ref=pd_sim_b_1

24 hours go around the outside, this imo, would be as said, the 12 sons and 12 daughters.

I have this one for the Southern Sky, a bit useless for trying to locate stars in the North Sky...

Heh, I have a similar one in Dutch for the northern sky.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

From the very first moment I learned about the yuul-script I didn't much understand, why the script has been developed. One reason was to design letters,  but the other reason, that the script should be read clockwise as given in the examples puzzles me still today, because the script of the OLB is merely linear. Have you any idea ?

After all this talk about astrology I had to think of a horsocope wheel.

And you know what's in top of a standard horsocope wheel? Capricorn, a sign ruled by Saturn. And Saturn is no one else but the Kroder. or "Krodo" (we posted about Krodo before).

It also stands for the father. Wralda?
The more I think about it, the more much of the symbology in the OLB becomes clear.... and the more I want to know who was that much interested in astrology in the 19th century to incorporate it in the OLB.

But I can't tell you why the texts on those Yule wheels should be read clockwise.

[Knul]

Abe, did you ever see the famous Planetarium of Eise Eisinga in Franeker ?  s. http://www.planetarium-friesland.nl/. There you might find out about who made studies of astronomy/astrology in Friesland in the 19th century. It's amazing, what a wolkammer could achieve. In the cafetaria next door bells ring, when you can join a group to see the planetarium.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

The word "kroder" is an old Dutch word meaning wheelbarrow, or the one pushing it forward.

I showed you that long ago.

It looks almost exactly the same as the Little Dipper moving around the pole star.

.

I think kroder is originally the small wheel which is used to turn a mill to the wind.To turn the mill is called kruien.

Edited by Knul, 19 December 2011 - 03:13 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:

I think kroder is originally the small wheel which is used to turn a mill to the wind.To turn the mill is called kruien.

Have a look at this Hyves page (Hyves is a Dutch kind of Facebook):

http://kroder-krooder.hyves.nl/

Or have a look here:

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/kruien

Or here:

kroder -> kruier (carrier)
krodewagen- -> kruiwagen- (wheelbarrow)

http://www.oudeberoe...ep/letterK.html


.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 December 2011 - 03:34 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 03:08 PM, said:

Abe, did you ever see the famous Planetarium of Eise Eisinga in Franeker ?  s. http://www.planetarium-friesland.nl/. There you might find out about who made studies of astronomy/astrology in Friesland in the 19th century. It's amazing, what a wolkammer could achieve. In the cafetaria next door bells ring, when you can join a group to see the planetarium.

No, I never did, but I know I always wanted to visit it one day.

And look at what it says:

A conjunction of planets occurred on 8 May 1774. Before it happened, people insisted that these planets would collide with one another, the result being that the earth would be pulled from its orbit and incinerated in the sun. Eise Eisinga wanted to show that there was no reason for panic.

http://www.planetari....nl/engels.html

Btw, I did find software (Dutch/English) and I have been busy casting horscopes for several months of 2194 BC... and there's definately something going on there...

Alewyn suggested that a comet impacted in the Indian Ocean (Burckle Crater), and he said the date was Ocktober 21.

Well, based on astrology, I cane to Oktober 23 (click on the thumbnail for full size):

Edited by Abramelin, 19 December 2011 - 03:54 PM.

[Knul]

A good indication, that the OLB stems from the 19th century is the word stât,-a = state,-s, which is not Oldfrisian. The concept of states as political entities with their own government, laws, etc. comes from Montesquieu, but it took a while till states were codified in international law.  Earlier the countries were named after their rulers, like kingdom, county, etc.

MS 001 Alle / stâta thêr‑er lidsa anda ôre syde thêre / Wrsara , wêron fon vs ofkêrth  aend vn / der‑et weld thes Magy kêmen , aend‑et st / and to frêsane , that er  weldig skolde / wertha vr‑et êlle lând . - All the states that lie on the other side of the Wrsara had been wrested from us, and had fallen under the power of Magy, and it looked as if his power was to become supreme over the whole land.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 19 December 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

Have a look at this Hyves page (Hyves is a Dutch kind of Facebook):

http://kroder-krooder.hyves.nl/

Or have a look here:

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/kruien

Or here:

kroder -> kruier (carrier)
krodewagen- -> kruiwagen- (wheelbarrow)

http://www.oudeberoe...ep/letterK.html


.

It makes clear, that we deal with a Dutch word for carry, not with the Greek word Chronos = Time.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 19 December 2011 - 05:33 PM, said:

It makes clear, that we deal with a Dutch word for carry, not with the Greek word Chronos = Time.

I never said one was a literal translation of the other, just that they are equivalent.