168 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

J. K., on 06 February 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

Can you name a Christian denomination or movement that specifically teaches "Replacement" theology as a doctrine?

All of them as a matter of course and "JW's" affirm categorically that Judaism has indeed been replaced by them as the real ones.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

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No, Christ represents al of Christianity.  But Paul did come as a representative of Christ.

How could Jesus, a loyal Jew, represent a Christianity that has murdered millions of Jews throughout History?

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We've already discussed Ephesians 2:15 elsewhere - the Law as a rigid set of commandments has been set aside, but the Law itself still remains for us.

Isn't God's Law a law of commands and precepts? That's the Law that Paul claimed in Ephesians 2:15 which was bolished on the cross.

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As for Galatians 4, I see not a single point where Paul wrote that the Law was done away with.  It says we are not to be slaves to the Law, but it does not say we should not follow the Law.

Isn't God's Law the soul of the Sinaitic Covenant? That's the Covenant established by God with His People at Sinai. Paul compared it to the slave girl Hagar and God's People to her son Ishmael. Read Galatians 4:24,30. That's the Covenant and the People Paul urged his followers to cast them out. I understand you PA, Christians cannot see these things. Too close to the sun.

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Let me ask you a question now.  Paul tells us to live righteous lives, to abstain from sinful ways.  How can we do this if we have no knowledge of the Law?  If I don't have the Law, how can I abstain from sinful ways?  My answer to this would be that I can't.  I need the Law to know how to follow God.  But in saying that I need the Law to know how to follow God, I am not constrained by the Law, for the covenant of Moses has been replaced by a better covenant, a covenant of Grace.

Finally PA, you have seen the light. As far as Christians are concerned, yes, God's Covenant made with His People through Moses has indeed been replaced by a covenant of Grace whose guarantor, in the words of Paul, was Jesus. (Heb. 7:22) Moreover, that Jesus replaced not only that Covenant but also the Law and the Priesthood. (Heb. 7:12) In a word, "Judaism" has totally been replaced by Christianity.

Ben

[J. K.]

Ben Masada, on 06 February 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Therefore, what you are really telling me is that Paul did not fulfill his mission as an apostle to the Gentiles.

No, I am telling you that Paul did minister to the Gentiles.  He made several trips around the Mediterranean Sea area, preaching to Gentiles and Jews as he went.

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Then you say above that "You do not recall God limiting Paul to the Gentiles."

Do you know of a scripture reference which forbids Paul from preaching to Jews?

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Do you recall God extanding his mission to the Gentiles, I mean that is not reported by himself?

“But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:” Acts 9:15

Those are the words of God.  “Before the Gentiles” and “the children of Israel” encompasses everybody, does it not?  Also, please note that God said “a”, not “the”.  Ministering to Gentiles was not the sole responsibility of Paul.

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BTW, Peter declared that he, Peter, was the one assigned to the Gentiles, while all the other Apostles would work with the Jews. (Acts 15:7)

The vision which indicated to Peter that the Gentiles could receive the Gospel did not indicate he was the sole bearer of the news.  It was Peter’s decision to phrase it the way he did.

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It was at a meeting of the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem. Paul was there as a guest and said nothing.

“Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. (Acts 15:12).”  I believe that would be considered speaking.

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He was probably afraid to start a contension since the Apostles did not acknowledge him as a disciple. (Acts 9:26)

The Acts 9:26 reference is just after Paul received salvation.  The council meeting was much later, and Paul had experience ministering to both Jews and Gentiles by that time.

[J. K.]

Ben Masada, on 06 February 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

All of them as a matter of course and "JW's" affirm categorically that Judaism has indeed been replaced by them as the real ones.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are tangential to most of Christianity.  They use the same vocabulary, but with different meanings.  

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As far as Christians are concerned, yes, God's Covenant made with His People through Moses has indeed been replaced by a covenant of Grace whose guarantor, in the words of Paul, was Jesus. (Heb. 7:22) Moreover, that Jesus replaced not only that Covenant but also the Law and the Priesthood. (Heb. 7:12) In a word, "Judaism" has totally been replaced by Christianity.

I can agree with you that Judaism has been replaced by Christianity as the way to achieve righteousness in God's eyes  However, the Old Testament still remains as the foundation upon which Christianity is built.  Also, please notice that it is called "Christianity".  Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of that foundation.  The disciples were already preaching the Gospel of Jesus before Paul receive salvation.  

[justcalmebubba]

I'm sorry  but why is the past more important then the future  let alone  the present old rule to be best remenbered  ..not  to be worring about what  the people next door are doing  but worry about your self cause  your self is only truely in your self control and even this is but a mear just reflection  in tha mirria of whats realy infront of you

[Paranoid Android]

Ben Masada, on 06 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

How could Jesus, a loyal Jew, represent a Christianity that has murdered millions of Jews throughout History?

The early Christians (1st-3rd Century) were not like that.  Yes, I understand your point, but the earliest Christians were followers of Christ, many of whom were Jews.

Ben Masada, on 06 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Christians cannot see these things. Too close to the sun.

And yet a Jew is able to tell us what we believe even when we say they are wrong.  Interesting.

Ben Masada, on 06 February 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Finally PA, you have seen the light. As far as Christians are concerned, yes, God's Covenant made with His People through Moses has indeed been replaced by a covenant of Grace whose guarantor, in the words of Paul, was Jesus. (Heb. 7:22) Moreover, that Jesus replaced not only that Covenant but also the Law and the Priesthood. (Heb. 7:12) In a word, "Judaism" has totally been replaced by Christianity.

Ben

???? I have never argued otherwise, the Mosaic covenant was replaced with the covenant of Grace.  That does not mean that the Law is abolished though.  You're stuck in a loop where you cannot perceive the Law existing despite the new covenant.  And until you fix that loop, your logic is going to continue to remain faulty, and your interpretation of Christianity will continue to be second-rate (at best).

I notice you neatly sidestepped my question entirely - how can a person live a righteous life free from sin without an understanding of what "sin" actually is?  And how can a person develop an understanding of "sin" without a knowledge of the Law?

Edited by Paranoid Android, 07 February 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[Ben Masada]

J. K., on 06 February 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

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No, I am telling you that Paul did minister to the Gentiles.  He made several trips around the Mediterranean Sea area, preaching to Gentiles and Jews as he went.

Yes, about 2% to the Gentiles and 98% to the Jews. IMO, 2% of one's missionizing activities hardly classifies him as an apostle to the Gentiles but to the Jews.

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Do you know of a scripture reference which forbids Paul from preaching to Jews?

His own declaration that he would leave the Jews alone and turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:46) Did he?

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But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:” Acts 9:15

Okay, although that's Luke, a Hellenistic disciple of Paul reporting about a certain Ananias from Damascus who had a vision confirming Paul as an apostle in general. However, Jesus' Apostles did not accept Paul as a disciple. (Acts 9:26) IMO, they should have been the ones to be informed about Paul being chosen and not this strange Ananias from Damascus who is not mentioned anywhere else.

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Those are the words of God.  “Before the Gentiles” and “the children of Israel” encompasses everybody, does it not?  Also, please note that God said “a”, not “the”.  Ministering to Gentiles was not the sole responsibility of Paul.

IMHO, that could have been a fast one Paul tried on the Apostles in order to be accepted and failed.(Acts 9:26)

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The vision which indicated to Peter that the Gentiles could receive the Gospel did not indicate he was the sole bearer of the news.  It was Peter’s decision to phrase it the way he did.

As it was Paul's decision to phrase Ananias' vision the way he did. We must be open to all probabilities. Paul was too cunning.

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“Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. (Acts 15:12).”  I believe that would be considered speaking.

Yes, but that the converts by the Nazarenes were staunch defenders of the Law, while Paul was preaching against Moses, circumcision and urging with the Jews to abandon the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:20,21)

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The Acts 9:26 reference is just after Paul received salvation.  The council meeting was much later, and Paul had experience ministering to both Jews and Gentiles by that time.

Three years afterwards. Enough time to have collected references that he had changed and not been sent back to Tarsus because of the havoc he wrought in Jerusalem preaching about Jesus as the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected. (Acts 9:30; Gal. 1:18)

Ben

[Ben Masada]

J. K., on 06 February 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

I can agree with you that Judaism has been replaced by Christianity as the way to achieve righteousness in God's eyes.  However, the Old Testament still remains as the foundation upon which Christianity is built. Also, please notice that it is called Christianity.  Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of that foundation.  The disciples were already preaching the Gospel of Jesus before Paul receive salvation.  

I am sorry JK, but Jesus was a Jewish man and he never had anything to do with Christianity. To say that he was the cornerstone of Christianity is to deny that he was Jewish at all. Paul yes, was the one because he did desert Judaism when he founded Christianity
in the city of Antioch about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. (Acts 11:26) And yes, the disciples of Jesus were indeed preaching the gospel of Jesus when Paul was still chasing them in the synagogues of the Jews in Damascus. (Acts 9:1,2) But the gospel they preached was too alien to the gospel of Paul. Hence, Paul's reference to their gospel as "The other gospel." (Gal. 1:6-9) And because
they would try to salvage their synagogues that Paul had overturned into Christian churches, Paul would consider them as "False Apostles. (2 Cor. 11:13)

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 07 February 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

I have never argued otherwise, the Mosaic covenant was replaced with the covenant of Grace.  That does not mean that the Law is abolished though.  You're stuck in a loop where you cannot perceive the Law existing despite the new covenant.  And until you fix that loop, your logic is going to continue to remain faulty, and your interpretation of Christianity will continue to be second-rate (at best).

I notice you neatly sidestepped my question entirely - how can a person live a righteous life free from sin without an understanding of what "sin" actually is?  And how can a person develop an understanding of "sin" without a knowledge of the Law?

The only way "To fix that loop" IMHO, is by getting rid of the whole NT altogether.

Now, with regards to your question, indeed, nobody can live a righteous life free from sin without the Law, only Paul who considered
himself an extraordinary man. When he found out in the Law that the way he was living was sinful, and since he could not get rid of that thorn in his flesh, he decided that the only solution was to serve two masters: The Law in his mind and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:8-25) Especially verse 25. He found himself to be an excepption to the rule because, as he declared himself, he was not bound by the Law. (1 Cor. 9:20) Just like the extraordinary man according to Dostoevsky in his book "Crime and Punishment."

Ben

[J. K.]

Ben Masada, on 08 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

Yes, about 2% to the Gentiles and 98% to the Jews. IMO, 2% of one's missionizing activities hardly classifies him as an apostle to the Gentiles but to the Jews.

And how did you arrive at those figures?  I am unaware of any Scripture that counts how many Jews and Gentiles were in the audiences that were preached to.

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I am sorry JK, but Jesus was a Jewish man and he never had anything to do with Christianity. To say that he was the cornerstone of Christianity is to deny that he was Jewish at all. Paul yes, was the one because he did desert Judaism when he founded Christianity

It doesn't bother me if you want to call Christianity a false religion, and if you want to think that the New Testament replaces the Old Testament, and if you want to think that the New Testament is a flawed document.

However, no matter how hard you try, you cannot overturn the fact that Christianity - as I and many others practice it - is based on the ministry of Jesus Christ in the four Gospels, and the ministry of the apostles and disciples in the later books.  Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity.  I am sorry, but your Paulianity and my Christianity are two different belief systems.  You have assessed many in the past of having preconceived notions; you seem to have your own preconception that it's impossible to create a religion centered on Jesus Christ.  However, it is possible, and it has happened.

[Paranoid Android]

Ben Masada, on 08 February 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Hence, Paul's reference to their gospel as "The other gospel." (Gal. 1:6-9)

There is no indication in Galatians that the "different gospel" is referring to the teachings of the other apostles.

Ben Masada, on 08 February 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Now, with regards to your question, indeed, nobody can live a righteous life free from sin without the Law, only Paul who considered
himself an extraordinary man. When he found out in the Law that the way he was living was sinful, and since he could not get rid of that thorn in his flesh, he decided that the only solution was to serve two masters: The Law in his mind and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:8-25) Especially verse 25. He found himself to be an excepption to the rule because, as he declared himself, he was not bound by the Law. (1 Cor. 9:20) Just like the extraordinary man according to Dostoevsky in his book "Crime and Punishment."

Ben

Nice way to dodge the question and twist it around to suit your purposes.  I give up!  It's fruitless to talk to someone uses their mouth twice as often as they use their ears.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 February 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[Ben Masada]

J. K., on 09 February 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

[size=4]And how did you arrive at those figures?  I am unaware of any Scripture that counts how many Jews and Gentiles were in the audiences that were preached to.

It doesn't bother me if you want to call Christianity a false religion, and if you want to think that the New Testament replaces the Old Testament, and if you want to think that the New Testament is a flawed document.

However, no matter how hard you try, you cannot overturn the fact that Christianity - as I and many others practice it - is based on the ministry of Jesus Christ in the four Gospels, and the ministry of the apostles and disciples in the later books.  Jesus is the cornerstone of Christianity.  I am sorry, but your Paulianity and my Christianity are two different belief systems.  You have assessed many in the past of having preconceived notions; you seem to have your own preconception that it's impossible to create a religion centered on Jesus Christ.  However, it is possible, and it has happened.

I don't mean 2% of the Gentiles; I mean 2% of Paul's missionary activities was to the Gentiles, while 98% to the Jews. And for your
standing on your view that Jesus was the cornerstone of Christianity, if you believe that he was a Jewish man, can you tell me how he liked the idea of being the son of God with an earthly woman? As I hope you must know, this is about the mythological concept
of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. How can you harmonize this with Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus?

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Paranoid Android, on 09 February 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

There is no indication in Galatians that the "different gospel" is referring to the teachings of the other apostles.

Nice way to dodge the question and twist it around to suit your purposes.  I give up!  It's fruitless to talk to someone uses their mouth twice as often as they use their ears.

You definitely must have a different NT from mine. That's why you cannot see what I see in the text of Galatians about the "other gospel." Or could it be preconceived notions? Anyway, why struggle further? You have finally decided to quit the debate. The difference between us is that you are moved by faith while I am moved by reason. Of course, no offense meant.

Ben

[J. K.]

Ben Masada, on 11 February 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

And for your standing on your view that Jesus was the cornerstone of Christianity, if you believe that he was a Jewish man, can you tell me how he liked the idea of being the son of God with an earthly woman? As I hope you must know, this is about the mythological concept of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. How can you harmonize this with Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus?

Regarding the faith of Jesus, I count myself among those whom He mentioned here:  ""I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."  John 17:20-21.  Whatever you wish to call this being-one-in-Us thing is fine with me.

As for the topic of a demi-god..."Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."  Isaiah 7:14.  It is my understanding that "Immanuel" means "God with us."

[Paranoid Android]

Ben Masada, on 11 February 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

The difference between us is that you are moved by faith while I am moved by reason. Of course, no offense meant.

Ben

I think you will find that we are both moved by faith.  That is the only explanation for your closed-mindedness.  I make no apologies for my Christianity, I understand it is based on faith.  But at the same time I acknowledge the gaps in my own knowledge where they arise.  You do not.  You stubbornly refuse to accept that what Christians believe and what you THINK they should be believe are not the same thing.  And where the difference lies, your only answer in that brain of yours is "oh, I can't possibly be wrong about what someone else should believe, so therefore they can't ever be right".

In short, no matter how many times a Christians says the Law is NOT done away with, you will stubbornly sit there, plug your ears, cry out "LA LA LA LA", and then demand that Paul taught that (which we believe he did not do).  

As I said, fruitless.  You're not here for discussion.  You're here to preach your views as right and everyone who disagrees is wrong!