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Loch Ness monster cited by US schools as

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#106    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:19 AM

View PostEnglishgent, on 03 July 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Sorry but you are definitely wrong. It was the lush forests of prehistoric times which gave us fossil fuels. If you care to break open a few chunks of coal, you will no doubt find fossilied plantlife such as ferns etc. We also get amber from fossiled resin from these very trees. Therefore...fossils...=....evidence!   Looks like Taphonomy teaches the wrong thing :)
No it doesnt teach wrong. Because in acid areas bones could not be preserved.

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#107    Englishgent

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:28 AM

You need to say what you mean in the first place.  You said 'fossils'' I corrected you :)


#108    Arbenol

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:32 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 July 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

In general YEC is a last ditch effort to hold onto the concept of a creator god in face of all the scientif ic evidence now available. It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science or to split their mind into knowledge and belief and prioritise belief; BUT the belief itself brings benefits to the believer and these are scientifically established. They have to be weighed against  the harm which can be done if such beliefs are allowed to be taught as fact.

I think it's way beyond 'last ditch'. I see those that try to find God in cosmological arguments as those taking the final stand.

As for the rest, if you look at the 2nd post I made in this thread, I wrote about importance of belief over unassailable scientific truths, and those that refuse to hear anything that contradicts these. This is what I referred to as willful ignorance, whilst you say "It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science". Sounds like we agree on that.


#109    behaviour???

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:38 AM

Quote

'I ve already made clear my total opposition to the teaching of YEC as any form of fact, in schools or out of them. But in a free society the teaching of the BELIEF is as acceptable as any other,  and it does bring benefits to its believers that no one else has the right to deprive them of

So do you by any chance believe that the life around is a product of the creation process?...If its that this is all about, I am afraid we are travelling to the same old discussion, again and again

Posted Image


#110    karmakazi

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:43 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 July 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Sure one can learn to cope wit excruciating toothache but we gave up having to 150 years ago.

A toothache is a good analogy.

The toothache is the pain.

You suggest people take painkillers as long as it takes till the tooth breaks and falls out on it's own.

I suggest they get that tooth pulled insted of allowing it to fester.



Quote

I think i must be missing something you are trying to explain, because i dont get your separation of faith /belief and religion. Religion is just a way humans codify their own spiritual beliefs and faiths. They may create their own or connect to one which appeals to them. It is the belief and faith which performs the healing, more than the religion, although social aspects of religion such as a community of supporters also helps.

Faith - trust in someone/something without knowing its whole truth

Belief - conviction that something is true, regardless of its ability to be proven

Religion - a group of specific beliefs, practices and rituals

My problem with religion is that people join a religion and accept the beliefs, the mythology, and the system already in place.  If a person does define their own, that is different.  I encourage it.


Quote

I dont get this as part of your argument unless you honestly see pain as a good and neceesaary part of the human condition.

Apparently god does.

I don't think you understood the point of my statement... or most of them.  I really don't feel like trying to explain it again.


Quote

Humans heal naturally but often need professional help to do so. Such professional help has only been  effectively available in the last two centuries for physical pain and in the last century for psychologial pain.

Humans survived thousands upon thousands of years, but, no, our advances in the last two centuries are what is important.




Quote

There is no need for pain in a modernTlife true coping allieveates pain and so do placebos  Belief and faith do the same  They also integrate a person into a more healthy and  productive relationship with others and with their their environment bleifs have helped humans cope and reduce pain and suffering since we became self aware

What world do you live in?

Quote

I suspect you dont like/appreciate the use of faith and belief to cope.

If it was effective for most people, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


Quote

Fair enough dont use it for yourself, although i think that makes you a mug like someone who wont use painkillers when needed because they dont believe in them. BUT dont tell others or suggest, that it is cheating, unfair, dangerous, or counter productive. Both history and modern science proves that faith and belief is highly beneficial to human beings.
There is no evidence that the reasons for belief influence its outcomes. If the belief is genuine it will produce positive outcomes.

I disagree with you about why people believe, based on reading material on the construction of human  belief. I accept  that there are many motivators for belief, but  basically belief endures BECAUSE it works. We ALL live our life around a set of inner beliefs. Our moralities, ethics, even love and hate, are belief sets which determine our  behaviours.

I can tell people whatever I want.  You certainly do.

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#111    paperdyer

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:46 PM

Instead of calling it evolution, a better term may be successful mutation.  Now if you want to call the force that caused the mutation as God, be my guest. God(s) is/ are created by man to explain aspects he currently can't explain otherwise.  Human's need some type of authority figure to expalin our existance. Odin, Thor, Loki, Athena, etc all put a face or a personality to non understood forces.  Until we understand all there is to know, God is as good as an explanation as any, but to say Nessie proves Darwin's theory wrong shows a narrow view of things, which is not what religion is about.


#112    WhyDontYouBeliEveMe

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

evolution theory ... THEORY THEORY .. its not a fact...   how come those christians are so ...... ... ahhh .. uh..    .   i dont wanna think about it ..  
but i dont believe in the evolution theory ... either :D :D :D aliens created us :D


#113    hetrodoxly

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:33 PM

No Nessi? they'll be telling us next that men in Scotland wear skirts.

Thank god i'm an athiest.

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#114    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:41 PM

View Posthetrodoxly, on 03 July 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

No Nessi? they'll be telling us next that men in Scotland wear skirts.

Well a kilt is a skirt...and some will describe it as a type of skirt.. !!!


I don't think many men in Scotland like that description...that is why they sang the song - Donald where's your trousers lol :P

EDIT to add in video  



Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 July 2012 - 06:47 PM.

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#115    Cybele

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 07:46 PM

View Postkarmakazi, on 02 July 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life.  A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication.  Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them.  It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people.  There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants.  Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.

That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.

I have also suffered with depression on-and-off for most of my life. However, unlike yourself, I have found anti-depressants to be absolutely essential to improving my mood and by extension my life. How could a person take time to improve themselves and alleviate their own suffering if they were, for example, constantly being besieged by suicidal ideation or panic attacks? Rather than view medication as a “dodge” or a “magic fix”, one could instead view it as an important step on the road to recovery--a means to normalize or empower oneself so that you are, with a clear head, better able to work out issues in your life that are contributing to unhappiness and ridding yourself of destructive habits.

A belief in a god may serve a similar purpose for believers. Perhaps some people do use the idea of a god as a crutch. But for others, like Mr. Walker, belief can apparently cause transformations in a person--it can lead them to becoming more proactive in improving their lives and the lives of others. I think the possibility of a belief being false is secondary in importance to  happiness.

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#116    hetrodoxly

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:57 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 03 July 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Well a kilt is a skirt...and some will describe it as a type of skirt.. !!!


I don't think many men in Scotland like that description...that is why they sang the song - Donald where's your trousers lol :P

EDIT to add in video  


Andy Stewart, that's a blast from the past pre Jules Holland new years eve on the BBC.
Other countries have men in skirts i saw them when i visited Thailand, they had better legs. :P

Thank god i'm an athiest.

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#117    Junior Chubb

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostCybele, on 02 July 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Yours are better. Thanks.

Glad to help.

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

#118    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:23 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 03 July 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

I think it's way beyond 'last ditch'. I see those that try to find God in cosmological arguments as those taking the final stand.

As for the rest, if you look at the 2nd post I made in this thread, I wrote about importance of belief over unassailable scientific truths, and those that refuse to hear anything that contradicts these. This is what I referred to as willful ignorance, whilst you say "It requires a person either to fool/blind them selves about the science". Sounds like we agree on that.

I think you are  correct; however i know that belief, however it is founded, is a good thing in itself when it brings productive consequences. And belief per se has been proven to bring productive consequences to individuas, whatever the causation for that belief. Religious belief almost universally does this, (brings measurable physical productive consequences) for the believers without any other practical consequence ie they do not have to act on the belief to gain the benefits.

BUT some beliefs promote destructive individual and social practices which outweigh the positive ones. ANy belief must be judged on the consequences for individuals and for societies. Despite all the wars etc fought in the name of religion it has, on an independent analysis, brought greater benefits to mankind. Just as our scientific knowledge, which has killed millions has also brought general advantages.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#119    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:39 AM

View Postkarmakazi, on 03 July 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

A toothache is a good analogy.

The toothache is the pain.

You suggest people take painkillers as long as it takes till the tooth breaks and falls out on it's own.

I suggest they get that tooth pulled insted of allowing it to fester.





Faith - trust in someone/something without knowing its whole truth

Belief - conviction that something is true, regardless of its ability to be proven

Religion - a group of specific beliefs, practices and rituals

My problem with religion is that people join a religion and accept the beliefs, the mythology, and the system already in place.  If a person does define their own, that is different.  I encourage it.




Apparently god does.

I don't think you understood the point of my statement... or most of them.  I really don't feel like trying to explain it again.




Humans survived thousands upon thousands of years, but, no, our advances in the last two centuries are what is important.






What world do you live in?



If it was effective for most people, I wouldn't have a problem with it.




I can tell people whatever I want.  You certainly do.

No i suggest they use means to alleiviate unnecesary pain until tha tcan be fixed I would encourage peole to seek professional medicla and psychologicla help but ALSO to have faith  Because faith works .

I have faith in my wifes fidelity. I trust in it. There is no difference. FAith and trust are avaialble in the absence of evidence. Both have to be consciously invested in someone or something
Unlike you I cant see any difference/ harm in a person joining another existing group of people with a similar faith. I am not exclusivist in spiritual matters. Any which work are equal.
God works hard to allieviate the pain and sufering which nature and man create in the world.
No I dont understand your POV either, but that is understandable
Faith is effective for almost every human. That is why we evolved the abilty to have it. It is like logic and reason, a helpful and essential part of our sapience.
I live in a very real world based on observation and reading. I use a very capable mind to make sense of myself and my world ANd i do all i can to help every other human being I can to have a life as good and wonderful as my own.
yes you have a right to your pov. I believe it is a very harmful one if i have understood it properly but perhaps I have not.

To deny humans the help of spiritual faith and belief is as wrong as telling them not to use logic and reason or avail themselves of science.

And yes i have been known to be opinionated on occasion.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#120    FurthurBB

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 01:01 AM

View PostCybele, on 03 July 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

I have also suffered with depression on-and-off for most of my life. However, unlike yourself, I have found anti-depressants to be absolutely essential to improving my mood and by extension my life. How could a person take time to improve themselves and alleviate their own suffering if they were, for example, constantly being besieged by suicidal ideation or panic attacks? Rather than view medication as a “dodge” or a “magic fix”, one could instead view it as an important step on the road to recovery--a means to normalize or empower oneself so that you are, with a clear head, better able to work out issues in your life that are contributing to unhappiness and ridding yourself of destructive habits.

A belief in a god may serve a similar purpose for believers. Perhaps some people do use the idea of a god as a crutch. But for others, like Mr. Walker, belief can apparently cause transformations in a person--it can lead them to becoming more proactive in improving their lives and the lives of others. I think the possibility of a belief being false is secondary in importance to  happiness.

I can add a good anecdote of why it is good to have a real medical opinion.  Something very traumatic happened to me and I started to have panic attacks, became afraid to drive, and started to get agoraphobic before my husband forced me to go to a psychiatrist.  Anyway, they thought I had PTSD and gave me an anxiety team, xanax and klonopin.  Well, I did start feeling better and they encoraged me to go back to work.  Then I started to feel a lot better, but got dangerously low blood sugar and they found that I had fructose malabsorption disorder, but couldn't understand why I couldn't absorb sucrose when most people can.  They gave me dextran shakes to increase my available glucose and that made things better when I drank 2 a day.  Then I lost a lot of weight and my blood pressure was out of control even though I have the best circulating fat levels imaginable and a really healthy heart.  Well, it turns out I never had PTSD and although fructose malabsorption disorder is what caused my low blood sugar it would not have happened if I didn't have a Graves-like disease.  Once I was diagnosed with that, I was actually given a magic little pill that resolved about 25 problems.  I wanted to deny my thyroid was the cause because for years it had been virtually asymptomatic and some doctors would tell me about all these symptoms I never had.  I had in the past had some symptomatic periods, but they were of short duration and very mild.  No one ever diagnosed it as an autoimmune syndrome because I always tested negative for antibodies.  I got a new endocrinologist that was determined that it was an autoimmune syndrome and that she would find the offending antibody/antibodies and she did.  So, even for people with great knowledge of biology, you should not attempt to diagnose yourself oh and some pills really are magic.

Edited by FurthurBB, 04 July 2012 - 01:03 AM.






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