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Ancient Aliens

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#211    jaylemurph

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:58 AM

View Postzoser, on 02 November 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I think it's very simple Jay.  It's so called scientific people that complicate matters.

They had no cameras.  Statues, art, and folklore was how they recorded what they saw and experienced.  

To suggest -- as you apparently do here -- that all pre-modern art is purely naturalistically representational is in defiance both of the facts and common sense. I'm game though: what was the moment, according to you, when human beings took the quantum leap and began to /imagine/ things and then draw/paint/sculpt them? It's clearly before Horace, who discusses the dangers of doing so I'd love for you to provide a specific date.

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The theory is very well supported in terms of artifacts that depict these humanoids, and in terms of what they achieved.  Notably the stonework.  There are just too many coincidences for it all to be attributed to some other reason such as their imagination.  men with spacesuits etc.

So, maybe I missed your actual rebuttal to my argument about the conventionality of art, because I'm sort of unwilling to believe your "nobody ever imagined anything until modern times" as a serious response, and saying "conventions aren't real and people don't have to understand them to appreciate art" is the intellectual equivalent of saying you're invisible when you can't see yourself -- you might think so, but that doesn't mean it's true.

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For many people including myself the case for AA is right there.

Okay, then. Your argument /is/ "I believe what I believe and I don't have to justify it". Sophisticated /and/ intellecectually satifying, then!

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#212    zoser

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 09:42 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 02 November 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Okay, then. Your argument /is/ "I believe what I believe and I don't have to justify it". Sophisticated /and/ intellecectually satifying, then!



It is justified Jay.  No one here has even remotely answered the question of the statues.  All you have done is relegated the issue to imagination.  Humanoids wearing space suits?  Really?  I don't buy it Jay.

Nor have people answered the pressing questions concerning all the enigmas of the stone.  Mr O talks around the issue, having no explanation for the vitrified layers seen on Peruvian stone (see links already provided), and what is indisputable evidence that stone was somehow softened.

Instead all I see people do here is shout as you have just done (although indirectly) the words 'prove it to me'.

Well the proof is there but people seem to evade it.

I won't post again until people do address it.

But please know that there is a gaping hole a mile wide in your assumed assurance that the AA hypothesis is false that will until the stonework issues are fully addressed always be there.

There is no point in just going around in circles with people that are reluctant to address the evidence.

See you soon on the other threads perhaps.  No hard feelings either way I hope.

Zoser

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#213    Considered_Ignorance

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:01 AM

Thr OP and many level-headed-sounding types posting afterwards seemed, like me many years ago, to have been greatly excited by the AA series, vd's chariots of the gods etcetera. No we all know how much of a blatant lie 99% of the ancient astronaut 'proof' is, but I'm still really interested to know.

I don't want to hear about some dopey charletan who has channeled the leader of the zoid race, or someones assertion that some rock somewhere is so smooth that only a laser could have cut it, but I want to know more. I think the curiosity aroused by the AA show must be driving some real alternative theories out there amongst the non-crazy?

We can't dismiss the possibility that one day our atomic dating systems will prove to be out of whack by up to millions of years, or that new archeology will be found to turn previous assumptions on their heads. I Wouldn't want to base any assumptions on the hope those things would happen, but hypothetically, what we 'know' about ancient civilisations could turn out to be quite wrong.

Some of you here seem like sensible, open minded and intelligent people, do you know of any scholarly work that seriously posits alternative archeology which might point to ancient astronauts? Personally It feels like the human race is rediscovering alot of technology, and that the history we know of shows traces of it, but the usual go-to theory for anything not easily understood is "religious significance". Anything we cant imagine stupid ancient people using must be some sort of religious artifact.

I'd love to find some real and serious re-evaluations of some of these things by professionals, but there is just too many nutters about for me to find any real information. Any ideas about what might be real? Id love to get that old chariots of the gods feeling of wonder back, but without the lies.

Sorry about the long rambling post!

Edited by Considered_Ignorance, 02 November 2013 - 11:06 AM.


#214    stereologist

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:37 AM

View Postzoser, on 02 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

It is justified Jay.  No one here has even remotely answered the question of the statues.  All you have done is relegated the issue to imagination.  Humanoids wearing space suits?  Really?  I don't buy it Jay.

Nor have people answered the pressing questions concerning all the enigmas of the stone.  Mr O talks around the issue, having no explanation for the vitrified layers seen on Peruvian stone (see links already provided), and what is indisputable evidence that stone was somehow softened.

Instead all I see people do here is shout as you have just done (although indirectly) the words 'prove it to me'.

Well the proof is there but people seem to evade it.

I won't post again until people do address it.

But please know that there is a gaping hole a mile wide in your assumed assurance that the AA hypothesis is false that will until the stonework issues are fully addressed always be there.

There is no point in just going around in circles with people that are reluctant to address the evidence.

See you soon on the other threads perhaps.  No hard feelings either way I hope.

Zoser

The "vitrification" does not mean the stone was softened. How did anyone conclude that the "vitrification" indicates softening?

I saw that story and thought that was a clear statement that the author had no idea what was being observed or was purposely misrepresenting the marks on the stone.


#215    laver

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

Within, hopefully, the guidelines indicated by the Moderator for this thread - that is possible evidence of ancient alien or nonterrestrial
influence in the ancient world - it would be remiss not to mention the geographical alignment of ancient sites which early cultures
considered 'sacred' or 'holy'. I am not aware of whether this topic has been covered by the programme Ancient Aliens or not, but would
strongly suggest that, if not, it may be very soon.

Why would 'aliens' set out alignments of sites and landscape designs you might ask : could this not just be coincidence or maybe a
spiritual pastime of some early cultures ? Is there any evidence that this is based on non-terrestrial influence ?

The answer is a matter of scale or distances involved. Ley lines have been discussed for hundreds of years starting in Britain with
the observed alignment of ancient and religious sites over relatively short distances which, if design and not coincidence, could have
been achieved by early humans with basic surveying skills. But long distance alignments are a different matter.

Without wishing to duplicate information which is covered on another UM thread, already mentioned in previous posts, these long distance
alignments and very large landscape designs could not have been achieved by any known culture or civilisation of the ancient world, so if
an ancient geometric design based on later 'sacred' or 'holy' sites are clear evidence of some, as yet unknown, civilisation or the work of
an 'outside' or 'non-terrestrial' intelligence. Some of these designs have only been found with the human ability to fly and see them from
above.

I have no wish to be seen to be trying to 'hijack' this thread, so if any UM users are interested please refer for details to the other thread.
But the topic of Ancient Alien influence is common to both threads, a fact that other UM users should be aware of in my opinion.


#216    cladking

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 02:44 PM

View PostConsidered_Ignorance, on 02 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:


Some of you here seem like sensible, open minded and intelligent people, do you know of any scholarly work that seriously posits alternative archeology which might point to ancient astronauts? Personally It feels like the human race is rediscovering alot of technology, and that the history we know of shows traces of it, but the usual go-to theory for anything not easily understood is "religious significance". Anything we cant imagine stupid ancient people using must be some sort of religious artifact.

I'd love to find some real and serious re-evaluations of some of these things by professionals, but there is just too many nutters about for me to find any real information. Any ideas about what might be real? Id love to get that old chariots of the gods feeling of wonder back, but without the lies.

Sorry about the long rambling post!

There's plenty of evidence but professionals discount it and dismiss it with a wave
of the hand.  It's always been this way in all fields.  People buy securities when every-
one else is and they all lose money together.  It's very easy for people to forget how
little evidence supports even the best foundesd beliefs.  In the 19th century most
surgeons' patients died because they believed that delaying an operation to wash
hands and instruments would lead to even more death.  They believed this despite
never having tried washing their hands and instruments. Somehow or other all these
deaths have no impact on people today and we've learned nothing from it.  Now we
know that introducing germs into a person's body is likely to be fatal and we know
everything else and there just isn't room in this world for both bronze age technology
and aliens.

I like your handle;  wanna trade?

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#217    jaylemurph

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:53 PM

View Postzoser, on 02 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

It is justified Jay.  No one here has even remotely answered the question of the statues.  All you have done is relegated the issue to imagination.  Humanoids wearing space suits?  Really?  I don't buy it Jay.

You may not buy it, but you apparently don't have one single worthwhile reason for doing so. Which is fine, but it confuses me why you'd then go on to a /discussion forum/ to publicize your lack of ability to discuss your opinions. Or to imply you're somehow cleverer than everyone else in understanding What's Really Going On™ by virtue of those same unjustified and unjustifiable stances.

(I mean, as a comparison, I think Doctor Who is the greatest show ever, but I don't go to a Star Wars forum say "Doctor Who is far better than this pap because I, like, totally reaallyyy, think so, man" and then pretend like that's a decent argument.)

But different strokes for different folks.

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Nor have people answered the pressing questions concerning all the enigmas of the stone.  Mr O talks around the issue, having no explanation for the vitrified layers seen on Peruvian stone (see links already provided), and what is indisputable evidence that stone was somehow softened.

...which is totally not what I was responding to. I can't take part in that side of the disucssion, but I can directly address your idea that every piece of art, ever, before a certain magical date was baded on literal reality. Did you think I wouldn't notice you completely dodging my issue and changing the subject, or do you think I'm just sufficiently stupid as to be unable to parse two things that are completely different?

Quote

Instead all I see people do here is shout as you have just done (although indirectly) the words 'prove it to me'.

Well the proof is there but people seem to evade it.

...so you /do/ understand the difference between a proven argument and a non-proven one. You just don't feel the need to personally engage in the system. I can groove with that level of irony and totally not call it hypocrisy at all.

Oh. Dammit. I think I just did, anyway. Sorry about that. Mea culpa.

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I won't post again until people do address it.

Well, as the intellectual value of you not posting and of you posting your art-based non-arguments is exactly the same, I think we can all get behind that decision.

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But please know that there is a gaping hole a mile wide in your assumed assurance that the AA hypothesis is false that will until the stonework issues are fully addressed always be there.

Apparently, you're not too up-to-date with the meaning of "your". I have nothing to do with that part of the discussion, so you may wish to change your possessive adjective there. But you won't because you've taken the very mature, Eric Cartman, "Screw you guys, I'm going home" path of non-discussion.

Quote

There is no point in just going around in circles with people that are reluctant to address the evidence.

See you soon on the other threads perhaps.  No hard feelings either way I hope.

Zoser

...except you're not doing that very well, either, since you keep. going. on. Sheesh!

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#218    stereologist

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:14 AM

Quote

Within, hopefully, the guidelines indicated by the Moderator for this thread - that is possible evidence of ancient alien or nonterrestrial
influence in the ancient world - it would be remiss not to mention the geographical alignment of ancient sites which early cultures
considered 'sacred' or 'holy'. I am not aware of whether this topic has been covered by the programme Ancient Aliens or not, but would strongly suggest that, if not, it may be very soon.
Laver, as I pointed out in the other thread there are no alignments as you claim. You posted hogwash there and you perpetuated that here.


#219    laver

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:42 AM

View Poststereologist, on 03 November 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Laver, as I pointed out in the other thread there are no alignments as you claim. You posted hogwash there and you perpetuated that here.

Please reply to the other thread, as requested, where you lost the argument and ran away..........


#220    kmt_sesh

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:27 AM

View Postzoser, on 02 November 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Isn't that prejudice?

Certainly not. It can be described as protecting the intellectual integrity of a respected scientific institution.

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#221    stereologist

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:35 AM

View Postlaver, on 03 November 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Please reply to the other thread, as requested, where you lost the argument and ran away..........

No. I simply saw no need to continue pointing out your repetitious inane claims.


#222    kmt_sesh

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:37 AM

Stereologist and laver, please let it go. It's not worth pursuing anymore.

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#223    S2F

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:54 AM

View PostConsidered_Ignorance, on 02 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Id love to get that old chariots of the gods feeling of wonder back, but without the lies.

I'm not sure that's even possible...

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

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#224    spacecowboy342

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 08:44 AM

View Postzoser, on 01 November 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Terrible argument Myles.  

I've seen scores of pieces of art in one form or another depicting basically the same idea of humanoid beings that look distinctly non planetary.  How many statues of giant hands have you seen?
What exactly makes these humanoid beings look non planetary?


#225    seeder

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:24 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 02 November 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

You may not buy it, but you apparently don't have one single worthwhile reason for doing so. Which is fine, but it confuses me why you'd then go on to a /discussion forum/ to publicize your lack of ability to discuss your opinions. Or to imply you're somehow cleverer than everyone else in understanding What's Really Going On™ by virtue of those same unjustified and unjustifiable stances.

(I mean, as a comparison, I think Doctor Who is the greatest show ever, but I don't go to a Star Wars forum say "Doctor Who is far better than this pap because I, like, totally reaallyyy, think so, man" and then pretend like that's a decent argument.)

But different strokes for different folks.



...which is totally not what I was responding to. I can't take part in that side of the disucssion, but I can directly address your idea that every piece of art, ever, before a certain magical date was baded on literal reality. Did you think I wouldn't notice you completely dodging my issue and changing the subject, or do you think I'm just sufficiently stupid as to be unable to parse two things that are completely different?



...so you /do/ understand the difference between a proven argument and a non-proven one. You just don't feel the need to personally engage in the system. I can groove with that level of irony and totally not call it hypocrisy at all.

Oh. Dammit. I think I just did, anyway. Sorry about that. Mea culpa.



Well, as the intellectual value of you not posting and of you posting your art-based non-arguments is exactly the same, I think we can all get behind that decision.



Apparently, you're not too up-to-date with the meaning of "your". I have nothing to do with that part of the discussion, so you may wish to change your possessive adjective there. But you won't because you've taken the very mature, Eric Cartman, "Screw you guys, I'm going home" path of non-discussion.



...except you're not doing that very well, either, since you keep. going. on. Sheesh!

--Jaylemurph

Him and his vitrified stone again. Do you know on the previous mad AA thread, he kept asking why the 'ancient' builders would 'vitrify'  the rock inside a cave... (because there is a cave that shows the apparent vitrification, especially on the roof inside)....and this was a major issue for him " WHY would they vitrify inside a cave"... "How did they do this" and over and over again like a broken record. he had no possible ideas how this could have happened, it must have been done by aliens using high heat lasers to get the rock into such a high heat state that when cooled it left a glassy shiny surface texture. "But why he asked, go to all the hard work and effort to vitrify INSIDE this place?

The question was asked repeatedly, the photos were posted endlessly...

Until that is, I explained the cave had been a kiln.. :lol:  you know, where they used HIGH HEAT to fire their bowls and pots....and you could sense, even thru the internet, that he had the slow realisation of what a total fool he had been. Classic zoser :clap:

Oh and heres his humanoids in space suits...just watch first 2 mins or so, more if you like





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Edited by seeder, 03 November 2013 - 10:27 AM.

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