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The "Hilltop Youth"


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#16    and then

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:58 AM

View PostYamato, on 27 January 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

No, that's misunderstanding my post.  That's doing more of the same when I'm clearly trying to stop it.   Don't confuse Israel with Zionist settlements, for "God's" sake.

If Mississippi invaded Georgia through Alabama, Georgia has no right to annex parts of Alabama much less settle on her land, much less uproot her people and never allow them to return.  The Alabamians would be returned, every man, woman and child, to every home, and every plot of land, bar none.   That is justice and that's the same justice Palestinians deserve.   When a Palestinian is forced out of her home with brutal force of the Israeli government, being answered with brute force in return is justice.   We are so many years and so many thefts and slaughters past the point of legitimacy in an armed Palestinian revolt in this conflict it's beyond self-evidence at this point; it's primal.

If I recognize Israel, and I do, then I recognize Palestine by the exact same measure.  Either get out of Palestine, Israel, or the people of the world who genuinely care about civil liberties won't get off of you.  Security for both sides can easily be reached with international military forces.   Keeping US soldiers in Iraq for 100 years a la John McCain was a pipe dream the American people would have none of.  Keeping international forces in two independent states, Israel and Palestine, will likely be necessary.   You should see there is no reason to support what you do support being done to the Palestinians.  All your problems will be solved by international security forces.   If Israel wanted peace and security as bad as it claims it does, it would be leading the initiative to execute such a plan.   But it wants land, thus peace and security can wait for its clear path to the annihilation and annexation of Palestine.  Anyone honest enough to look at a map can see what's going on over there.   Hiding it in sugary rhetoric is no longer possible.
So we put US troops on the ground between two peoples who still want to kill each other.  Israel expects us to occasionally look the other way on some issue and if we do, even in the least way -or even if we don't for that matter - the Palestinians cry foul and BOTH sides kill our troops.  I honestly believe that the Israelis would accept a smaller piece of land if they could actually live in peace.  They have been given no reasons to expect that is a possibility though.  And if they once again try -as I think will happen beginning as soon as March, with this European push for peace, then we will have a chance to finally see if I am correct in my assumption or if you are.  The Europeans are not pro Israel and will drive a bargain that is at least somewhat equitable toward Palestinian interests, if not overly so.  The recent Israeli election shows the country to be split with half on the left more amenable to peace.  Interestingly, Haniyah has already said that left or right does not matter and the Palestinains have no partner for peace.  But I think Europe will push a plan and Abbas, Hamas and Hizbullah, will all get on board.  Israel will cede some of the land and settlements and then the world can judge for itself who is really trying to make peace and who is trying to take it all...  IF I am correct then the Israelis will lash out massively against the next round of Palestinian violence that occurs after Europe forces them to give more of their land away.  And yes I believe what the Bible says about God's land and what He chose to do with it.  Leaving Him out of the calculation is folly - but one has to believe in Him before that occurs in the picture I guess.

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#17    Yamato

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

View Postand then, on 27 January 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

So we put US troops on the ground between two peoples who still want to kill each other. Israel expects us to occasionally look the other way on some issue and if we do, even in the least way -or even if we don't for that matter - the Palestinians cry foul and BOTH sides kill our troops.  I honestly believe that the Israelis would accept a smaller piece of land if they could actually live in peace.  They have been given no reasons to expect that is a possibility though.  And if they once again try -as I think will happen beginning as soon as March, with this European push for peace, then we will have a chance to finally see if I am correct in my assumption or if you are.  The Europeans are not pro Israel and will drive a bargain that is at least somewhat equitable toward Palestinian interests, if not overly so.  The recent Israeli election shows the country to be split with half on the left more amenable to peace.  Interestingly, Haniyah has already said that left or right does not matter and the Palestinains have no partner for peace.  But I think Europe will push a plan and Abbas, Hamas and Hizbullah, will all get on board.  Israel will cede some of the land and settlements and then the world can judge for itself who is really trying to make peace and who is trying to take it all...  IF I am correct then the Israelis will lash out massively against the next round of Palestinian violence that occurs after Europe forces them to give more of their land away.  And yes I believe what the Bible says about God's land and what He chose to do with it.  Leaving Him out of the calculation is folly - but one has to believe in Him before that occurs in the picture I guess.
No, international troops, thus they won't be under US command so our special interests are irrelevant.  

Contrary to your endless claims, most Israelis and Palestinians have consistently polled that they want a two-state solution, so I'm not representing anything "anti-Israel" here by promoting such a peaceful end.  God knows I've been accused of it enough, though.  Somehow when I'm not running over peoples' civil liberties and not kowtowing to violent minorities of criminal extremists, I'm not being fair.  Well, bugger that sod.

The Hilltop Youth's "settlements" should be destroyed by Palestinian authorities, not the Israeli government.  Actually respecting the sovereignty of both sides manifests itself in a million different ways, this is just one other.

Trying to internationally legitimize this kind of behavior is ludicrous.   These "settlers" are the first obstacle to peace that have to go.


Edited by Yamato, 27 January 2013 - 02:44 AM.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#18    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:36 AM

A two-state or even a three-state (if Gaza can't get on with the rest of Palestine) "solution" would be fine.  I think some special internationalization of Jerusalem would have to also be part of that.


#19    and then

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostYamato, on 27 January 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

No, international troops, thus they won't be under US command so our special interests are irrelevant.  

Contrary to your endless claims, most Israelis and Palestinians have consistently polled that they want a two-state solution, so I'm not representing anything "anti-Israel" here by promoting such a peaceful end.  God knows I've been accused of it enough, though.  Somehow when I'm not running over peoples' civil liberties and not kowtowing to violent minorities of criminal extremists, I'm not being fair.  Well, bugger that sod.

The Hilltop Youth's "settlements" should be destroyed by Palestinian authorities, not the Israeli government.  Actually respecting the sovereignty of both sides manifests itself in a million different ways, this is just one other.

Trying to internationally legitimize this kind of behavior is ludicrous.   These "settlers" are the first obstacle to peace that have to go.

Yeah...they look like a real menace.  Cheerful lot though  :yes:

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#20    Yamato

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:22 AM

View Postand then, on 27 January 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yeah...they look like a real menace.  Cheerful lot though  :yes:
This nonchalant reply just shows your lack of respect for a two-state solution and it only serves to sever any realistic chance of it happening.  What's tragic about this situation on both sides is how people get uprooted from their homes, unable to return.  The existence of the settlements regardless of their origins is what makes that happen, and surprisingly, even illegally under Israel's own law.   It's just another example of a profound lack of recognition for the rule of law whether human law, international law, or now Israeli law.  The radical Zionist agenda surpasses them all in order of importance.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#21    and then

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:36 AM

View PostYamato, on 28 January 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

This nonchalant reply just shows your lack of respect for a two-state solution and it only serves to sever any realistic chance of it happening.  What's tragic about this situation on both sides is how people get uprooted from their homes, unable to return.  The existence of the settlements regardless of their origins is what makes that happen, and surprisingly, even illegally under Israel's own law.   It's just another example of a profound lack of recognition for the rule of law whether human law, international law, or now Israeli law.  The radical Zionist agenda surpasses them all in order of importance.
Kind of like all those Zionists who were uprooted at gunpoint from homes and businesses they built in Gaza, Yam?  You know, those  who for the most part are still living in trailer slums?  Actually I believe 100% in the right of Jews to settle the land.  I believe in the concept of Eretz Israel.  But I also know that it isn't practical to happen anytime in the near future.  They will have to try to make peace with an enemy sworn to extinguish them because the world says so.  As I said, look to March and I think we'll see who is serious and who isn't.  If the Palestinians gain land and sovereignty over their own affairs I bet it will be less than 1 year before some factions are killing Israelis again.  And NO ONE will say a word when it happens.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#22    Yamato

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:48 AM

View Postand then, on 28 January 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Kind of like all those Zionists who were uprooted at gunpoint from homes and businesses they built in Gaza, Yam?  You know, those  who for the most part are still living in trailer slums?  Actually I believe 100% in the right of Jews to settle the land.  I believe in the concept of Eretz Israel.  But I also know that it isn't practical to happen anytime in the near future.  They will have to try to make peace with an enemy sworn to extinguish them because the world says so.  As I said, look to March and I think we'll see who is serious and who isn't.  If the Palestinians gain land and sovereignty over their own affairs I bet it will be less than 1 year before some factions are killing Israelis again.  And NO ONE will say a word when it happens.
Yes, and those people, and that should be enough for you to join me in opposing these settlements.   The more "settlements" these squatters build, the more destruction and displacement will be necessary.  The more "settlers" that will end up living in trailer slums.   If you want to play Eretz Israel for the Zionists instead, there will never be a two-state solution.  In fact I think you've exposed your true sentiments here that you have no interest in two states living side by side as equals.

No one will say a word?   That'll be a first.  Every word said in our media will be pro-Israel as it always is.  You know that as well as I do.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#23    GoSC

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 January 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I have to say I tend to be pro-Israel.  They built a working society and made the desert bloom and have been there now a couple generations.  The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid.

Working society? Built on billions of dollars of US aid.

Made the desert bloom? That is the myth Israel tries to perpetuate. If you have an opportunity and find Jaffa, The Orange's Clockwork anywhere online please do. It is only an hour long in length but the truths it distills on the myths of the Jews making the desert blooms is enormous. Unfortunately, YT only has portions of the doc uploaded.

The Palestinians live under Israeli military law in the West Bank since 1967, and live under blockade siege in the Gaza Strip for decades now. Palestinians have no state and live under state of apartheid.

Posted Image

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#24    and then

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

And the second part of his statement?  "The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid."  ?

The Palestinians have been suckled on international welfare for 65 years.  They have built nothing, improved nothing and DONE nothing except fight.  Support that ideology if you want but don't wrap it in nobility, It's nauseating.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#25    Yamato

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:24 AM

View Postand then, on 29 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

The Palestinians have been suckled on international welfare for 65 years.  They have built nothing, improved nothing and DONE nothing except fight.  Support that ideology if you want but don't wrap it in nobility, It's nauseating.
And that's the problem with any welfare now, isn't it?   I've proposed initiatives like Trade Not Aid because what Palestinians need is self-determination, not a hand-to-mouth existence that's being forced on them by Israeli tyranny.  And you'd be on the same page with me in agreement with me on that, if what I'm replying to here is what really mattered.

How can they stop fighting when they're still fighting for their lives and livelihood?   They're the best example of freedom fighters in the world today.   Don't pretend they're fighting for anything less.   There's nothing in the world more worth fighting for than that, there's nothing more noble than self-determination.   When freedom dies, tyranny reigns.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#26    GoSC

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:43 AM

Jaffa, The Orange's Clockwork will be shown 9 times over the next three weeks on LINK TV

Tonight 1/30 @ 2:00 am
Thurs 1/31 @ 5:00 pm
Fri 2/1 @ 11:00 pm
Sat 2/2 @ 9:30 am
Mon 2/4 @ 4:00 pm
Wed 2/6 @ 4:03 am
Sun 2/10 @ 8:05 am & 3:00 pm
Mon 2/11 @ 2:35 am

Check local listings, all times listed are Pacific. I have it already recorded on my DVR.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#27    and then

and then

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:12 AM

View PostYamato, on 30 January 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

And that's the problem with any welfare now, isn't it?   I've proposed initiatives like Trade Not Aid because what Palestinians need is self-determination, not a hand-to-mouth existence that's being forced on them by Israeli tyranny.  And you'd be on the same page with me in agreement with me on that, if what I'm replying to here is what really mattered.

How can they stop fighting when they're still fighting for their lives and livelihood?   They're the best example of freedom fighters in the world today.   Don't pretend they're fighting for anything less.   There's nothing in the world more worth fighting for than that, there's nothing more noble than self-determination.   When freedom dies, tyranny reigns.
Then let them keep fighting I guess.  Because that attitude reinforces their hope that they will some day have every square inch of "Palestine" that their grandfathers lived on.  Far more likely that they will lose even what they possess now and the opinions of the world  be damned.

Edited by and then, 30 January 2013 - 09:13 AM.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.




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