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Can't Wish Away Facts About Immigration

illegal immigration

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#16    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:44 PM

Consider the enrichment of culture that the Vietnamese immigrants had on the states, but now it is almost impossible for a Vietnamese to even get a travel visa and only relatives of citizens can hope to get on a waiting list.  It is stupid for America to do this and causes it to be seen as s selfish, racist nation.


#17    Jessica Christ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

View PostKowalski, on 10 May 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

I am not racist, nor do I hold any "white supremacist" views either.
This type of comment coming from you is rich. Aren't you the same person who thinks all people in rural areas are uneducated, gun worshiping rednecks? Bigotry comes in all forms buddy...




Exactly. They have NO education or job skills, nor do they speak English. And with people who have COLLEGE degrees unable to find meaningful employment, how are these immigrants expected to find work?? The fact is most will have to go on social welfare programs. And that is going to cost A LOT of money.
Our economy is in the toilet, and our government deficit is in the trillions. It is a very bad idea to give amnesty to over 11 million illegal immigrants when we can hardly take care of the citizens we have now.

No one said you were racist. In fact no comment was made directly to you as a person. Some though only comment on their fellow poster.

The question remains. Why would some bandy around a report written by a white nationalist who writes about eugenics and how races are not equal.

Then not disavow themselves from that?

Instead they defend the message from that person? Use their sources? And then just go on and on about another group not their own?

It does make one wonder....


#18    Kowalski

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:36 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 10 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

No one said you were racist. In fact no comment was made directly to you as a person. Some though only comment on their fellow poster.

The question remains. Why would some bandy around a report written by a white nationalist who writes about eugenics and how races are not equal.

Then not disavow themselves from that?

Instead they defend the message from that person? Use their sources? And then just go on and on about another group not their own?

It does make one wonder....


Because math is math...


#19    xFelix

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostKowalski, on 10 May 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Because math is math...

We've been over the math, You pay what a few extra bucks.. in return you get to have the "careers" while these poor souls get to go stand in the sun 14 hour days at 5 dollars an hour. You get rid of them, and all of a sudden your dearest citizens have to start standing 14 hour days in the sun picking tomatoes at 5 dollars an hour...

We've also been over the racial dissection of how statistics say that these people are.. useless.

You know there is a statistic for everything right? Finding incriminating statistics isn't that hard, in fact that is all presidential debates are anymore.
One guy has these statistics, the other one has those statistics... guess what... They contradict each other so how are they accurate?

Same applies here, you can dig up statistics on how "illegal immigrants" are useless and I can dig up statistics on how current citizens are useless and where do we get? Nowhere.

The fact is, that singling out a certain group of people according to race, gender, religious belief, or country of origin is illegal. So technically speaking everyone who uses the word "illegal immigrants" to describe a group of people is by the very same logic... an Illegal citizen or as luck would have it.. There is a word handy the defines people engage in such discrimination.. RACIST.

Aww the land of opportunity, but there shall definitely be no opportunity for some people! We will make it impossible for them to enter, and when they still come because they are really that desperate we will slam them with racist remarks and demand that they return home! Who likes having all these desperate people picking off all the lowest paying jobs like bottom feeders anyways? 'Mericans should have all the jobs and all the opportunities and nobody else!

Hmmm somehow this whole subject reminds me of...

Quote

This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of God's children. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood.
- Martin Luther King Jr.

Quote

“We declare our right on this earth...to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary.”
- Malcolm X

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#20    Dan'O

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:05 PM

Immigrants+not here legally=illegal immigrant

How do you define armed cartel members growing weed in Southern Oregon. Or are you 'cool' with that?


#21    Michelle

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

We've been over the math, You pay what a few extra bucks.. in return you get to have the "careers" while these poor souls get to go stand in the sun 14 hour days at 5 dollars an hour. You get rid of them, and all of a sudden your dearest citizens have to start standing 14 hour days in the sun picking tomatoes at 5 dollars an hour...

So you are okay with them being exploited? How children are forced to work in the fields 14 hours a day and women and children are raped? The are living in squaller and are beaten on a regular basis. They are no better than slaves, with no rights, living in fear that if they say anything they will be deported. This isn't even mentioning the coyotes they pay to bring them here where they are sometimes left locked in the back of trucks to die in the middle of the deserts instead of being caught with them.

But as long as they get here that is all that matters, because the end justifies the means.


#22    xFelix

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostDan, on 10 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Immigrants+not here legally=illegal immigrant

How do you define armed cartel members growing weed in Southern Oregon. Or are you 'cool' with that?

How do you define the hundreds of 'Merican street gangs killing thousands of people each year? Oh that's right, when it's 'Mericans it's rotten apples, when it's anyone else it's their entire race doing it..

View PostMichelle, on 10 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

So you are okay with them being exploited? How children are forced to work in the fields 14 hours a day and women and children are raped? The are living in squaller and are beaten on a regular basis. They are no better than slaves, with no rights, living in fear that if they say anything they will be deported. This isn't even mentioning the coyotes they pay to bring them here where they are sometimes left locked in the back of trucks to die in the middle of the deserts instead of being caught with them.

But as long as they get here that is all that matters, because the end justifies the means.

Once again, it is as I said... This is all because this country has made the legal entry process utterly impossible for the ones who need entry, while making it a breeze for those who have no interest.

If they would give everyone a fair chance, one that can be revoked for those bad apples... None of the problems would exist.. Aside from the painfully obvious retarded racial issues. We're in 2013 and still have racial issues, when will people learn?

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#23    Kowalski

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

How do you define the hundreds of 'Merican street gangs killing thousands of people each year? Oh that's right, when it's 'Mericans it's rotten apples, when it's anyone else it's their entire race doing it..



Once again, it is as I said... This is all because this country has made the legal entry process utterly impossible for the ones who need entry, while making it a breeze for those who have no interest.

If they would give everyone a fair chance, one that can be revoked for those bad apples... None of the problems would exist.. Aside from the painfully obvious retarded racial issues. We're in 2013 and still have racial issues, when will people learn?

If your against amnesty for illegals, then you must be racist, huh?
:no:

Jeez...


#24    pallidin

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:28 PM

I have not read all of the replies... my bad, as I usually do before commenting.

However, I would agree on the replies I did read that this issue seems, unfortunately, more self-serving political than anything else.

That is, votes. As was said by others.

More so with regards to local and state elections, versus say, federal elections.

This disturbs me, as the issue get's twisted from the politicians into gaining votes to become elected instead of what's best for America.

I don't know. Just bugs me I guess. It doesn't seem right.


#25    Myles

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:


The fact is, that singling out a certain group of people according to race, gender, religious belief, or country of origin is illegal. So technically speaking everyone who uses the word "illegal immigrants" to describe a group of people is by the very same logic... an Illegal citizen or as luck would have it.. There is a word handy the defines people engage in such discrimination.. RACIST.

No-one said mexican illegals.    It's all illegals.    You need to quit making stuff up.   If they came here illegally they have already broken the law.   I don't think rewarding them for that is right.   Moreso it is the blight they will have on the country.  
If you took a few poor, unemployed illegals who do not speak english and had them move in with you, don't you think you would feel a difference.   You would have to buy their food, their clothes, pay their doctor bills.


#26    Dan'O

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

View PostDan, on 10 May 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Immigrants+not here legally=illegal immigrant

How do you define armed cartel members growing weed in Southern Oregon. Or are you 'cool' with that?
How do you define the hundreds of 'Merican street gangs killing thousands of people each year? Oh that's right, when it's 'Mericans it's rotten apples, when it's anyone else it's their entire race doing it..

If you don't want to or can't give an answer to my simple question there is no need to even quote it.

As far as your question (?) goes I would define them as too many illegal immigrants...? Causing people to use phat vernacular like" 'Merican". Well, on a slightly more serious note I would say the fracturing of society and the family unit due to multiple factors culminating in turf and/or drug wars compounded by the failures of inept and/or ill-equipped individual communities.

Edited by Dan'O, 10 May 2013 - 06:48 PM.


#27    Kowalski

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:08 PM

Quote



Police: Illegals responsible for much of drug trade



A lot of the stories centered around undocumented immigrants deal with hard-working people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. While much of that is true, Utah is also being flooded with illicit drugs brought in large part by those in the country illegally.
Most of the groups busted by the Utah County Major Crimes task force are made up of Hispanics, director Lt. Phil Murphy said.
"The majority of them are not residents," he said.
His Weber-Morgan county counterparts have kept statistics on their drugs busts.
Of the 483 busts made between May 2009 and May 2010, 8 percent involved undocumented immigrants. But those 38 people were responsible for 82 percent of the total amount of drugs seized.
Just a few short years ago, Utah was infamous across the country for having a massive number of meth labs. Strict laws have since cut the number of labs nearly to zero. But Murphy says that even at the height of Utah's meth lab days, the state wasn't producing anything like the quantities being brought in from Mexico, where huge amounts of it are mixed in "superlabs," then shipped north. Illegal immigrants are not only bringing it into the country, they're doing it in such a way that they're difficult to catch.
"They're basically assigned to come to this area," Murphy said. "It's a very corporate mentality. A business mentality."
And like anything tied to immigration, there are no easy answers.
State Sen. Jon Greiner, R-Ogden, has tried for years to pass legislation cracking down on gang activity -- often running into resistance from colleagues because of concerns over Fourth Amendment rights such as unreasonable searches and seizures.
"Because we're so afraid of being painted with the racial profiling brush, we're not as aggressive as we should be or would be," said Greiner, who is also Ogden's police chief.
He said he doesn't have recorded data to prove it, but 35 years in law enforcement makes him conclude that about 25 percent of illegal immigrants involved in the drug trade are transient, while 75 percent live in the area.
Greiner was on Gov. Gary Herbert's immigration roundtable on Tuesday and laughed about the "90 seconds" he got to make his case. With all the talk about states getting involved in immigration reform, one idea to manage the drug problem would be to make it easier for the feds to get involved. Federal convictions have much tougher sentences and room in prisons for convicts other than violent offenders.
"If Utah had a reputation for filing in the federal system, that might do it," he said.
The only real answer, say Greiner and Murphy, is that the country is going to have to come to grips with the addiction culture it's created.
"If it wasn't wanted here, if there wasn't a demand, then there wouldn't be a problem. But there is," Murphy said. That demand is at all levels -- illegal and legal.

Taken from http://www.heraldext...7d36fee426.html

Quote

  • Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.
  • Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.
  • Illegal immigration and high levels of identity theft go hand-in-hand. States with the most illegal immigration also have high levels of job-related identity theft. In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit). In Texas it is 27 percent; in New Mexico, 23 percent; in Colorado, 22 percent; California, 20 percent; and in Nevada, 16 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest percentage of illegal aliens in their total population are among the top 10 states in identity theft (Arizona, California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, New York, Georgia, and Colorado).
  • Children are prime targets. In Arizona, it is estimated that over one million children are victims of identity theft. In Utah, 1,626 companies were found to be paying wages to the SSNs of children on public assistance under the age of 13. These individuals suffer very real and very serious consequences in their lives.
  • Illegal aliens commit felonies in order to get jobs. Illegal aliens who use fraudulent documents, perjure themselves on I-9 forms, and commit identity theft in order to get jobs are committing serious offenses and are not “law abiding.”
  • Illegally employed aliens send billions of dollars annually to their home countries, rather than spending it in the United States and helping stimulate the American economy. In October 2008 alone, $2.4 billion was transferred to Mexico.
  • Tolerance of corruption erodes the rule of law. Corruption is a serious problem in most illegal aliens’ home countries. Allowing it to flourish here paves the way for additional criminal activity and increased corruption throughout society.
  • Leaders support perpetrators and ignore victims. Political, civic, religious, business, education, and media leaders blame Americans for “forcing” illegal aliens to commit document fraud and identity theft. No similar concern is expressed for the American men, women, and children whose lives are destroyed in the process

Posted Image


Identity Theft Victims Suffer Real Consequences. Victims of identity theft suffer real consequences. The victims of workers at the Swift packing plants included an individual in Texas whose personal information was being used by an illegal alien for employment. The victim was pulled over and arrested because the illegal alien had used his identity to conduct criminal activity.22
In Utah, the staff of the state’s Workforce Services office has seen children denied Medicaid benefits because adults were using their SSNs. Based on information developed by Workforce Services, Utah Attorney General, Mark Shurtleff warned the public about the devastating impact that illegal alien identity theft has on children when he said:


Identity thieves are no respecters of age. They will steal your children’s ID, ruin their credit, and hurt them in ways never thought possible before they can graduate from grade school. Children are vulnerable even if parents do everything right.23

In Illinois, an American citizen was denied a job at a Target store because one of 37 people who were using her SSN was already employed by the company. According to MSNBC, “The woman found herself in a financial nightmare. All those imitators made a mess out of her work history, her Social Security records, and her credit report. She was haunted by bills and creditors. She received threatening letters from the IRS, asking her to pay taxes on money earned by imposters. She was told to re-pay unemployment benefits she had received, after the government discovered she was ‘working’ while drawing benefits.”24
A man whose SSN was used to obtain employment in at least three states was told by the IRS that he owed $64,000 in unpaid taxes in spite of the fact that he had been incarcerated in a state penitentiary during the time the income was earned.25
A nursing home resident nearly lost his disability benefits because a worker at a Pilgrim’s Pride meat plant was using his identity and it appeared that the disabled patient was working.26 An Air Force veteran was arrested on a warrant for unpaid parking tickets incurred by an illegal alien using his identity. He was only released after paying a $340 fine for tickets that he did not incur. He continued to receive demands for the payment of outstanding taxes on income that he had not earned and he saw his credit rating destroyed.27
These stories are just the tip of the iceberg. Millions of Americans either knowingly or unknowingly are sharing their SSNs with illegal aliens and are having their lives slowly usurped by the identity thieves. They will only learn of the damage done when they are denied credit, receive a notice for taxes on income they didn’t earn, are denied benefits that they are entitled to, find that their medical records have been corrupted with possibly life-threatening consequences, or when collection agencies start calling.


Taken from http://www.cis.org/IdentityTheft


America’s political, media, civic, religious, and educational leaders try to justify illegal alien document fraud, perjury, and identity theft by arguing that the unauthorized workers are forced to commit these crimes in order to obtain jobs. For example, in 2006, when asked about illegal alien driven identity theft, former United States Representative Chris Cannon (R-Utah) replied: “This is a huge problem, that we sort of force people into.”43 [emphasis added]

The Associated Press had earlier used the same rationale when its reporter wrote:


In 2004, the IRS got 7.9 million W-2s with names that didn’t match a Social Security number. More than half were from California, Texas, Florida, and Illinois, states with large immigrant populations, leading experts to believe they likely represent the wages of illegal immigrants. Even immigrants who use ITINs to file taxes are forced to make up a Social Security number when they get a job.44 [emphasis added]

An editorial in the Deseret News (Utah) stated that the solution to illegal immigration would be to give illegal aliens a “work permit that keeps them from having to forge Social Security cards.”45 [emphasis added]
Illegal aliens, who are used to operating in the often more corrupt systems of their home countries, do what is necessary to get the documents required to work in the United States. When asked why they violate American law, they justify their actions by saying that they had no other choice, that it’s just like the bribe to the policeman or to the corrupt government official in their home countries. For example:
  • “If I could do it again — I wouldn’t do it [buy an identity and Social Security number for $850], but the laws of this country force you to do it.”46 (emphasis added) This person had been convicted of identity theft and was being deported.
  • “You know, there’s a lot of people, they make documents and we buy them. That’s the only way you can work. It’s not legal, but what can you do?” The ID this person bought belonged to an IRS agent, which under Minnesota law is a criminal offense.47
  • “We were working, we weren’t stealing,” she said although she had been convicted of identity theft.48
  • “In Spanish, Ramos said all she wanted was a job and that she never knew the identity she was using actually belonged to another woman.” Ramos had used a stolen identity when hospitalized leaving the victim with a $17,000 bill and possibly life threatening, corrupted medical records.49
A nation flourishes when people respect the rule of law and abhor corruption in all its forms. As demonstrated by the current financial crisis, corruption can be devastating for millions of people.
Under the rule of law, when people disagree with a law, they work to change it while upholding it until such time as it is amended, abolished, or totally rewritten. However, today millions of men, women, and children are the victims of illegal-alien-driven identity theft because America’s political, civic, education, business, religious, education, and media leaders endorse and allow fraud to permeate our immigration system.
Leaders and citizens must individually and collectively take action to protect Americans and legal residents against illegal immigration-driven document fraud and identity theft. All employers must verify the employment eligibility and identities of new hires and existing employees. Illegal aliens must understand that the corruption of their home countries will not be tolerated in the United States and that document fraud, perjury on I-9 forms, and identity theft to obtain jobs is not acceptable. They must also understand that individuals committing these crimes will be held accountable.
Any eventual immigration reform must recognize and compensate the victims of illegal-alien-driven identity theft while denying amnesty from these crimes to illegal aliens, regardless of whether they have previously been convicted of these crimes or not. Finally, any immigration reform has to end the corruption associated with illegal immigration.


#28    Jessica Christ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

Richwine just resigned.

The information posted on this thread presented as studies will have their sources scrutinized to determine if they are the type of research we will recognize as coming from a non-biased academic organization.

Anyone is free to accept whatever evidence is presented but some have standards of what can be defined as scholarship.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 10 May 2013 - 08:37 PM.


#29    Michelle

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 10 May 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Richwine just resigned.

The information posted on this thread presented as studies will have their sources scrutinized to determine if they are the type of research we will recognize as coming from a non-biased academic organization.

Anyone is free to accept whatever evidence is presented but some have standards of what can be defined as scholarship.

As condescending as you are you can and will be ignored by more and more people as time goes on. One thing you cannot do is talk for all liberal Democrats. Very few of them are clones. The ones I know have much more sense, take all news sources into account and look at every bit of evidence with the utmost scrutiny. Don't even think of putting yourself in their catagory. It's an insult to them and they would be deeply offended.

Edited by Michelle, 10 May 2013 - 09:33 PM.


#30    Jessica Christ

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:30 AM

Of course I do not speak for all liberals, especially since I do not identify with liberalism.

As far as conservative voices, while I cannot speak for them, they can speak for themselves regarding the "study" discussed in the OP:


Conservatives who disagree with the Heritage Foundation Report

Quote

Hours after Mr. Rector presented his findings at a news conference at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, Haley Barbour, a Republican leader and former governor of Mississippi, convened his own press call to dismiss the study.

This a political document,” Mr. Barbour said. “This gigantic cost figure that the Heritage Foundation puts out is actually the cost over 50 years. If you put the 50-year cost of anything in front of the public, it is going to be a huge number.”

Mr. Barbour, who is among a growing number of Republican leaders who have urged the party to take a less hard-line approach to immigration, criticized Mr. Rector for failing to estimate the economic benefits of bringing immigrants into the legal system, and for underestimating the potential for economic improvement over time among immigrant families.

Estimate of Immigration Overhaul’s Cost Gets Mixed Reviews on Right

We are in agreement that this is a "political document". Further, it does not seem to be non-biased or academic in nature.


Quote

Grover Norquist, the conservative anti-tax crusader, has also spoken out in recent days to pre-emptively dispute Mr. Rector’s claims. An analysis posted Monday on the Web site of his organization, Americans for Tax Reform, called the cost estimate “wildly overblown,” arguing that the study had, among other things, lumped native-born Americans into many of its calculations.

Estimate of Immigration Overhaul’s Cost Gets Mixed Reviews on Right

Oh, someone should tell the author of the report presented in the OP that Native Americans and Hispanics are not the same.

There is little doubt, that document falls short of the standards expected from non-biased academic research. A "political document", biased, with poor scholarship is what it seems to be.


Quote

Heritage argued in a newly released report that the allowing 11 million undocumented immigrants a pathway to citizenship could cost $6.3 trillion. On the other side of the debate are conservative lawmakers including Sen. Jeff Flake, a member of the Gang of 8, along with other conservative organizations who argue the Heritage report didn’t take into account the economic benefits immigration reform would bring along with it.

Why Conservatives Are Divided on Immigration Reform



Libertarians who disagree with the Heritage Foundation Report

Quote

...the CATO Institute, who pushed back with their own critiques, arguing that the Heritage report did not take the economic benefits of immigration reform into account.

Heritage Foundation's opposition to the Senate proposal generated lots of opposition—among conservatives.

We also have libertarian voices denying the accuracy of this report that was falsely claimed in the title of this thread to be "facts" that "could not be washed away".

It seems that some conservatives and libertarians disagree with this report. Consider it likely that the majority of liberals and progressives would also find fault with it too.




Mr. Richwine's previous work

Quote

But reports this week about the content of Mr. Richwine’s 2009 doctorate dissertation, in which he said the lower I.Q.’s of immigrants should be considered when crafting public policy, set off a furor, with some immigration advocates decrying his writing as racist.

The Heritage Foundation had already come under criticism from both Democrats and Republicans for the study on the costs of the immigration proposal, and news of Mr. Richwine’s outside writings further undercut the organization’s attempt to help shape the immigration debate from the outside.

Author of Study on Immigrants’ I.Q. Leaves Heritage Foundation

Hitler also had the same ideas color coded in green above.



A Liberal who disgrees with the Heritage Foundation Report

Maybe one liberal voice should also be shared here? Since I cannot speak for them we can allow them to speak for themselves.

Quote

“Racism and xenophobia have no place in the debate on immigration reform, period,” said Jose Antonio Vargas, the founder of Define American, a pro-immigration group. I hope this is a lesson for all sides that what the public is looking for is a fair and honest debate on immigration reform, not long discredited racial theories designed divide us rather than unite us.

Author of Study on Immigrants’ I.Q. Leaves Heritage Foundation

This does not truly require anyone from the left to argue since those of you who self-identify with conservatism have your own fellow conservatives to debate with over the validity of the report presented in the OP.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 11 May 2013 - 12:37 AM.






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