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Al Nakba


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#16    and then

and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:07 AM

View PostStellar, on 03 October 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

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Do you really expect, after some government says "Hey, I own this territory, so I'm going to kick you off," people are going to be "ok" with it as long as its done "legally"?
When it's done after the conclusion of a war, which is usually the case, no one is in a position to argue.  Israel is, to my knowledge the ONLY country to be held to a different standard in this regard.  I'm not saying it's the right thing to do - just that it IS the way things were done in past and I'm sure, will be done again in future.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#17    Stellar

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:00 AM

Conclusion of the war? Who concluded the war? Certainly not the people who are still fighting.

The French government surrendered to the Germans in WWII. The war, for the french, was technically over. Do you believe the French resistance had no reason to continue fighting?

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

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#18    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:54 AM

View PostStellar, on 04 October 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Conclusion of the war? Who concluded the war? Certainly not the people who are still fighting.

The French government surrendered to the Germans in WWII. The war, for the french, was technically over. Do you believe the French resistance had no reason to continue fighting?
By that standard then the country with superior firepower should end the resistance by absolutely razing the opposition. Total scorched earth and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks...now THAT would be a NAKBA, buddy.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#19    Yamato

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:25 AM

View Postand then, on 04 October 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

By that standard then the country with superior firepower should end the resistance by absolutely razing the opposition. Total scorched earth and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks...now THAT would be a NAKBA, buddy.
Once everyone is dead, there's nobody left not to give up.  So you're not understanding Stellar correctly here.

What you're describing is more akin to the US standard, though the US cares what the rest of the world thinks looking at the bribes we offer along with our bombs.   What we're seeing with the advent of the internet however, is the global free flow of open air information that I hope will continue to increasingly oppose the secretive policies that government terrorists cook up in the recesses of their marble halls.   Flooding Palestine with video cameras, IT training and internet infrastructure is a charity worth founding because exposing Israel's policies is the real "threat" to their survival.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#20    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:39 AM

View PostYamato, on 04 October 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Once everyone is dead, there's nobody left not to give up.  So you're not understanding Stellar correctly here.

What you're describing is more akin to the US standard, though the US cares what the rest of the world thinks looking at the bribes we offer along with our bombs.   What we're seeing with the advent of the internet however, is the global free flow of open air information that I hope will continue to increasingly oppose the secretive policies that government terrorists cook up in the recesses of their marble halls.   Flooding Palestine with video cameras, IT training and internet infrastructure is a charity worth founding because exposing Israel's policies is the real "threat" to their survival.
No, I think bombs and bullets still fill that bill.  I'm amazed that a bright guy like yourself doesn't get it by now.  The Israelis can only worry just so much about how the world perceives them.  Eventually they just have to do what is right for themselves and not worry about the haters.  They really can't do anything that will satisfy their critics short of just disappearing and they've made it quite clear they have no intention of doing that.  So put a CCTV on every corner and cry about injustice all you want but the truth is they already treat their enemies better than they ever were treated by those enemies.  The world will do nothing - can do nothing.  Even in we in the great satan were to close our purse and walk away....

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#21    Yamato

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:50 AM

View Postand then, on 04 October 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

No, I think bombs and bullets still fill that bill.  I'm amazed that a bright guy like yourself doesn't get it by now.  The Israelis can only worry just so much about how the world perceives them.  Eventually they just have to do what is right for themselves and not worry about the haters.  They really can't do anything that will satisfy their critics short of just disappearing and they've made it quite clear they have no intention of doing that.  So put a CCTV on every corner and cry about injustice all you want but the truth is they already treat their enemies better than they ever were treated by those enemies.  The world will do nothing - can do nothing.  Even in we in the great satan were to close our purse and walk away....
If there's nothing to worry about, close the purse and walk away then.  Your circle was wide but at least you've come around.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#22    and then

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:40 AM

View PostYamato, on 04 October 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

If there's nothing to worry about, close the purse and walk away then.  Your circle was wide but at least you've come around.
And what happens the day after, Yam?  Just because we wash our hands doesn't mean the world becomes a better place.  Far from it.  But I think this is precisely what we will do at some point not too far off.  In fact it could happen during Oby's next four on the throne.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#23    Yamato

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:55 AM

View Postand then, on 04 October 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

And what happens the day after, Yam?  Just because we wash our hands doesn't mean the world becomes a better place.  Far from it.  But I think this is precisely what we will do at some point not too far off.  In fact it could happen during Oby's next four on the throne.
Dirty hands don't make the world a better place either so let's learn how to coexist with clean ones.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#24    Stellar

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

View Postand then, on 04 October 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

By that standard then the country with superior firepower should end the resistance by absolutely razing the opposition. Total scorched earth and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks...now THAT would be a NAKBA, buddy.

Well, I wouldn't say that they should do that, but I am saying that that really is the only way to get people to not resist if they feel oppressed. It would cause the rest of the world to join the fight to prevent that massacre though.

The only way to invade a country and not be resisted is to liberate people from what they consider an oppressor. If the people consider you to be oppressing them, they will fight you until they are dead or no longer feel oppressed. That's just how it is. You'd Act no differently.

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

----Seraphina

#25    RavenHawk

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:42 PM

View PostYamato, on 04 October 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

If there's nothing to worry about, close the purse and walk away then.  Your circle was wide but at least you've come around.
I would agree with that.  Israel doesn’t need our aid any more (but also note we don’t give it to them for their sake) but nothing would change.  This doesn’t change the final outcome.  You are just hung up on this as a talking point.  If we stopped giving Egypt, Jordan, and Israel aid, what non sequitor would you complain about then?


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#26    Karlis

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:00 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 04 October 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

~~~...


... You are just hung up on this as a talking point.  If we stopped giving Egypt, Jordan, and Israel aid, what non sequitor would you complain about then?
RavenHawk and everyone: please note,

Do not make personal challenges in your posts. ... Especially in the Middle East threads.
Karlis -- mod team member


#27    GoSC

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:55 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 October 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I'm just now watching this film.  I've only got 20mins into it and I find it very interesting.  I already see how this is an anti Jewish/Israeli propaganda piece – that’s ok.  Filled with facts and key ones twisted.  The Rothschilds are behind it so it must be evil Zionism.  But in the 8th min it says that in 1910, lands were purchased in Marj Bin Amer and the Palestinians were removed.  This is prior to WWI and it already tells you that it is not Palestinian lands.  They are nothing more than squatters.  They have no legal status.  In the final analysis, there is no injustice of the Zionist Program.  Most land owners lived elsewhere and that is why you see on maps after 1920 Palestine is labeled as unorganized territory.  This means that the land was wide open.  Time to get back to the film.

It is a historic fact, Edmond de Rothschild (of the French family branch) and Walter Rothschild both strongly supported Chaim Weizmann and both Rothschilds believed in Zionism. The Balfour Declaration was personally addressed to Walter Rothschild, are you aware of that?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#28    RavenHawk

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 05 October 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

It is a historic fact, Edmond de Rothschild (of the French family branch) and Walter Rothschild both strongly supported Chaim Weizmann and both Rothschilds believed in Zionism. The Balfour Declaration was personally addressed to Walter Rothschild, are you aware of that?
Iím not disputing the facts just the lose way they are presented, leading the watcher to conclude a particular outcome.  Just because the Rothschilds were involved initially doesnít mean that there is some Bavarian Illuminati Conspiracy thingy targeting the Palestinian.  The question plaguing the British was what to do with the land?  Absentee ownership made the issue a holy nightmare.  They certainly could have walked away and left it to whomever.  In time, Palestine would have been partitioned between the neighbors and the same thing would have happened to the Palestinian as it did in Jordan in September of 1970.  But the Brits do things in a proper manner.  When the Balfour Declaration was presented, it was a very logical answer.  The Palestinian for the most part were squatters or a unwanted population even in the Arab world.  Palestine contained outcast semi nomadic tribes from Arabia or overflow population from Syria.  But that was nothing special; there are unwanted populations all over the globe.  In this world of 7 billion, not everyone can be made happy.  The Fates can be cruel.  That is a hard cold fact and it is perhaps Rule #1.  Rule #2 is that you canít change Rule #1.  The Palestinian is an evolutionary extinct culture.  Itís time for the people to move on.  After 60 years, the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon still donít have citizenship.  If they were a wanted people, donít you think they would have citizenship already?  They are shunned by their own race.  The health of civilization is dependent on the weak and sick cultures dying out to make way for stronger ones.  The majority of Israelis believe in Zionism or they wouldnít be there.  An Israeli not believing in Zionism is like an American not believing in Manifest Destiny.

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#29    Stellar

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:42 PM

What are you advocating here, Raven?

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

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#30    RavenHawk

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostStellar, on 05 October 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

What are you advocating here, Raven?
I’m advocating that although the film is very interesting, it is also very dishonest.  Careful now, that is getting real close to being a personal challenge.


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