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Afghan women jailed for moral crimes rises


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#16    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 29 May 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Jadidism was gathering momentum during the 19th and 20th centuries as a progressive and modern alternative for Islamic society but ended up fizzling out and unfortunately, since then, the Ulama's have taken over that part of the world.

Some of those who advocated a more progressive Islam and an interpretation of Sharia more in tune with modernity in the 19th and 20th centuries were ulama, such as Tahtawi, Mohamad Abduh, al Afghani...etc. This movement not just fizzled out but got swamped by a regressive theology as arid as the desert sands it blew from!


#17    Jessica Christ

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

View PostYamato, on 29 May 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Afghanistan is a failed state.

Any solutions that you had in mind?


#18    Jessica Christ

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 11:45 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 29 May 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Some of those who advocated a more progressive Islam and an interpretation of Sharia more in tune with modernity in the 19th and 20th centuries were ulama, such as Tahtawi, Mohamad Abduh, al Afghani...etc. This movement not just fizzled out but got swamped by a regressive theology as arid as the desert sands it blew from!

At one time in Rome it was an oppressive environment for women even within religion so when this new one came along that was liberating to women many joined helping make it popular. That religion was Christianity.

Yesterday's liberator becomes today's oppressor.


#19    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:09 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 29 May 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

At one time in Rome it was an oppressive environment for women even within religion so when this new one came along that was liberating to women many joined helping make it popular. That religion was Christianity.

Yesterday's liberator becomes today's oppressor.



While I agree with you that there is value in lessons learnt from ‘comparative history’, I still can’t resist the impulse of adding: “but that was then, and this is now”.  The plight of women in these countries is real, and can no longer be explained in terms of cultural relativity. While the whole world is moving forward, these societies are galloping backwards and the scope of their oppression of women is both increasing, and spreading its influence to other societies too.  Underlying the discriminatory legal systems, the physical and sexual abuse, sexual harassment, virginity tests by authorities, child marriage, honor killings…etc., is a dehumanizing view of women. For those who subscribe to this regressive reading of Islam, the sum total of woman is “awra” and she should live and be treated as such.

The etymology of the term accord to Wikipedia is:” In Arabic, the term 'awrah or 'awrat (Arabic: عورة‎) derives from the root ‘a-w-r which means "defectiveness", "imperfection", "blemish" or "weakness". However, the most common English translation is "nakedness".[1]
In Persian and Kurdish (Persian: عورت‎) as well as Urdu, the word 'awrat derived from the Arabic 'awrah, had been used widely to mean "woman". Consulting Mohammad Moin's dictionary of Persian, 'awrah leads to two significations:
1.Nakedness, shame
2.Young woman.“  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awrah

I should stress that this is not an absolute universal view shared by all Muslims, but the danger is that fundamentalists are ascending to power and are attempting to roll back whatever gains women achieved during the last century. Here is an example:

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/salafis-demand-end-women-s-rights-body-ballet


Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 30 May 2013 - 02:09 AM.


#20    Jessica Christ

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:49 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 30 May 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

While I agree with you that there is value in lessons learnt from ‘comparative history’, I still can’t resist the impulse of adding: “but that was then, and this is now”.  The plight of women in these countries is real, and can no longer be explained in terms of cultural relativity. While the whole world is moving forward, these societies are galloping backwards and the scope of their oppression of women is both increasing, and spreading its influence to other societies too.  Underlying the discriminatory legal systems, the physical and sexual abuse, sexual harassment, virginity tests by authorities, child marriage, honor killings…etc., is a dehumanizing view of women. For those who subscribe to this regressive reading of Islam, the sum total of woman is “awra” and she should live and be treated as such.

*snip*


Thank you for sharing your knowledge. It is refreshing but the topic is not. Women must achieve equality there and we should help change their societies without suppressing or blaming every Muslim especially those here in the West.

We also have a responsibility since we first funded the Taliban. It is true many there in that society no longer want them. They thrived in the conflict between us and the Soviets using thir land as a proxy. They thrive now in the chaos we revisted them with in this conflict. Hope when we withdraw the soldiers that we do not withdraw our presence but exchange it for funding for schools open to all sexes.

You are right. That was then, this is now. Islam once provided for liberal societies when Christianity was in the darkest of ages. A return is due and can be achieved even if it means those societies deemphasize religion and strengthen secularism.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 30 May 2013 - 03:10 AM.


#21    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:10 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 30 May 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. It is refreshing but the topic is not. Women must achieve equality there and we should help change their societies without suppressing or blaming every Muslim especially those here in the West.

We also have a responsibility since we first funded the Taliban. It is true many there in that society no longer want them. They thrived in the conflict between us and the Soviets using thir land as a proxy. They thrive now in the chaos we revisted them with in this conflict. Hope when we withdraw the soldiers that we do not withdraw our presence but exchange it for funding for schools open to all sexes.

You are right. That was then, this is now. Islam once provided for liberal societies when Christianity was in the darkest of ages. A return is due and can be achieved even if it means those societies deemphasize religion and strengthen secularism.


In all fairness, the oppression of women far predates any involvement of the West in these countries. Giving credit where credit is due, the West did contribute, directly or indirectly - by setting an example, or raising awareness- to the liberation of women. Some of the ulama I mentioned in an earlier post here studied in Paris for several years. However, recently western Machiavellian politics have helped make life a lot more difficult for women.





As for Muslims in the West, it is not a matter of 'branding' or slandering them, but governments should adopt a much firmer attitude towards certain practices, attitudes and beliefs which infringe on the freedom and rights of women. There should be no extenuating factors. Being PC and 'nice' or even tolerant should take a second seat to the idea that the same laws should be applied to all citizens, regardless of their origins or beliefs, and the law should regard all citizens on the same footing. Requiring a certain degree of integration is a safety valve to prevent a ghettoization or even 'balkanization' of Europe. Integration does not suppression, but a healthy ability to adopt and adapt a new homeland, while still keeping one's cultural idiosyncrasies and forsaking others. It also means accepting that eventually one's descendants will belong to and identify with THEIR home country, not with that of their grandparents. Those who are incapable or unwilling to adapt to their new countries should consider an alternative.


edited for font size!

Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 30 May 2013 - 04:12 AM.


#22    Jessica Christ

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:06 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 30 May 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

In all fairness, the oppression of women far predates any involvement of the West in these countries. Giving credit where credit is due, the West did contribute, directly or indirectly - by setting an example, or raising awareness- to the liberation of women. Some of the ulama I mentioned in an earlier post here studied in Paris for several years. However, recently western Machiavellian politics have helped make life a lot more difficult for women.

*snip*

We agree to a degree. Life was harsh before the Soviets and our presence (especially that of NGOs) have given them a different view of the world. After this exposure women will not stop fighting for their rights. My previous comment was based more on our responsibility to stay and insure rights for women are achieved as well as transforming their society into a progressive one. Men who attack females just for having a job, teaching, or wanting to go to school should be punished...worldwide.

Domestically we should focus on integration without allowing any allowances for parallel legal systems even covertly. My comments before were based mainly on those who hate Muslims here for problems over there. A recent poll revealed Muslims in America are the most moderate of any. Their exposure to our way of life changed them, naturally, but no huge surprise since acculturation always does that. Which is why it is very important we maintain a presence in Afghanistan once the military withdraws. Import our way of life instead of our drones. Support their hospitals, schools, and legal systems above all especially help with reform where required.

The ghettoization is really horrid in France. Over there the rich live inside the big cities while the poor immigrants remain outside in suburbs. This cuts off many communities away from the core services within. Unsure what could connect them. Their society will have to resolve that in order to see integration.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 30 May 2013 - 05:15 AM.


#23    Yamato

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:23 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 29 May 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Any solutions that you had in mind?
To let the people decide whether or not they want to continue subsidizing foreign governments.   I'm sure that when we can keep our own money we'll spend it far more intelligently than propping up oppressive regimes throughout the world.  

If it's such a good idea for the US to nation-build, we should make the case that every other country of reasonable wealth should participate in nation-building too.  Dump 5% of their GDP on foreign sweethearts like Karzai.  At least the greatest debtor nation in the history of earth would have some company in that riffraff.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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#24    Mr Walker

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:49 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 30 May 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

In all fairness, the oppression of women far predates any involvement of the West in these countries. Giving credit where credit is due, the West did contribute, directly or indirectly - by setting an example, or raising awareness- to the liberation of women. Some of the ulama I mentioned in an earlier post here studied in Paris for several years. However, recently western Machiavellian politics have helped make life a lot more difficult for women.





As for Muslims in the West, it is not a matter of 'branding' or slandering them, but governments should adopt a much firmer attitude towards certain practices, attitudes and beliefs which infringe on the freedom and rights of women. There should be no extenuating factors. Being PC and 'nice' or even tolerant should take a second seat to the idea that the same laws should be applied to all citizens, regardless of their origins or beliefs, and the law should regard all citizens on the same footing. Requiring a certain degree of integration is a safety valve to prevent a ghettoization or even 'balkanization' of Europe. Integration does not suppression, but a healthy ability to adopt and adapt a new homeland, while still keeping one's cultural idiosyncrasies and forsaking others. It also means accepting that eventually one's descendants will belong to and identify with THEIR home country, not with that of their grandparents. Those who are incapable or unwilling to adapt to their new countries should consider an alternative.


edited for font size!

The tricky situation is where educated, second generation western women, or even women of western descent, in a country like Australia chose (for logical and sensible reasons) to live as muslim women, so that they dress and act as such women. There are a considerable number of women young and old who do not want to drink alcohol, dress up in a way that makes them attractive to men, or to be the same as men. A lot of them are not  even muslim.

My wife has been like this all her life for 70 years. She has never drunk alcohol, sworn, never worn make up or jewellery, and is quite traditional and modest in her dress, appearance and   behaviour.

Ii dont have a problem with that in a free society .A woman must be truly free to chose whatever role she wants, not just one the society feels is most appropriate or best for her.

Mother, maddona, or whore;  all are allowable, as long as the choice is free and informed.  Australia is a multicultural society which,  within the limits of the law, actually encourages such cultural diversity.

Edited by Mr Walker, 31 May 2013 - 09:56 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#25    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:18 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 31 May 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

The tricky situation is where educated, second generation western women, or even women of western descent, in a country like Australia chose (for logical and sensible reasons) to live as muslim women, so that they dress and act as such women. There are a considerable number of women young and old who do not want to drink alcohol, dress up in a way that makes them attractive to men, or to be the same as men. A lot of them are not  even muslim.

My wife has been like this all her life for 70 years. She has never drunk alcohol, sworn, never worn make up or jewellery, and is quite traditional and modest in her dress, appearance and   behaviour.

Ii dont have a problem with that in a free society .A woman must be truly free to chose whatever role she wants, not just one the society feels is most appropriate or best for her.

Mother, maddona, or whore;  all are allowable, as long as the choice is free and informed.  Australia is a multicultural society which,  within the limits of the law, actually encourages such cultural diversity.

With regards to women, we both agree on the bolded part; but generally among immigrant communities women are more able to integrate more than men.

Integration does not necessarily mean blind copying of the host culture, or totally abandoning one's cultural heritage. Integration is opting for a compromise between both cultures, accepting to adopt the 'new home land' as a full member of its society, and also accepting that one's children and grandchildren will not live the same culture as their parents. My husband and I raised our children to be proud of the heritage they inherited from both parents, but they are European. Being half Egyptian does not mean that they were expected to live like Egyptians of their age. We maintained some Egyptian traditions at home, but not those that would place them in conflict, whether internal (psychological) or external.

What I was referring to in my previous post was ghettoization, whether physical or cultural; movements like "Sharia for....", the excessive ease with which the accusation of 'racism' is leveled at any one who complains about transgressions or misbehavior of an immigrant. If cultural diversity is to be a success, one side should be tolerant, the other should 'integrate', it's a two-way street. A foreign body, that remains foreign, leads to inflammation and infection!


#26    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:39 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 31 May 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

With regards to women, we both agree on the bolded part; but generally among immigrant communities women are more able to integrate more than men.

Integration does not necessarily mean blind copying of the host culture, or totally abandoning one's cultural heritage. Integration is opting for a compromise between both cultures, accepting to adopt the 'new home land' as a full member of its society, and also accepting that one's children and grandchildren will not live the same culture as their parents. My husband and I raised our children to be proud of the heritage they inherited from both parents, but they are European. Being half Egyptian does not mean that they were expected to live like Egyptians of their age. We maintained some Egyptian traditions at home, but not those that would place them in conflict, whether internal (psychological) or external.

What I was referring to in my previous post was ghettoization, whether physical or cultural; movements like "Sharia for....", the excessive ease with which the accusation of 'racism' is leveled at any one who complains about transgressions or misbehavior of an immigrant. If cultural diversity is to be a success, one side should be tolerant, the other should 'integrate', it's a two-way street. A foreign body, that remains foreign, leads to inflammation and infection!

I appreciate your pov especailly as you have lived it.  In my society that attitude might be considered racist. :devil:  While I think we agree with the extremist outcomes such as introducing sharia law Australia has evolved a differnt perspective based on historical events.

For example once we realised that aboriginal people weren't going to die out, the next policy was assimilation into european culture  and lifestyle.The many layered and longlasting disaster this created  made governments and  people in australia very wary of assimilation for migrants as well.

In the last 30 years or so we have been officially a multicultural society where you can live your own culture, attend your own schools speak your own language etc. BUT within an overall framework of austrlaian law. For example all schools maust teach standard australian curricula  and attain certain proficiencies in maths english etc.

So far it appears to have worked fairly well although there are some stressors and tensions which may increase with increased refugee intake from diverse backgrounds.

But it is illegal for anyone in austarlia to discriminate in any way on the basis of; race, gender, age, religion,  or disability for example

That mkes it illegal to demand something of a person which opposes their beliefs, UNLESS it contradicts australian law, such as female genital mutilation, marriage under the age of consent or forced marriage.

In official govt policy, and in reality, foreign bodies are a source of flavour, diversity and attributes and skills for our society. Making us all the same dilutes both the flavour and the nutritional vlaue of our melting pot of cultures.

Your point on women is very true, and understandable because of the  natural "social networking" of women. Children are perhaps the first to  change, especailly if they attend schools which are multicultural.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 June 2013 - 01:44 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#27    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:07 AM

Lol, that smiley you used was very suitable for calling me a racist! How can I be a racist when I myself am Egyptian? And no, I'm not one of those self-hating people, I'm very comfortable with who I am, and proud of my heritage :) You slipped into the ever-ready, easy answer: "racist", not applicable in my case!

May I remind you that I said in my previous post "Integration does not necessarily mean blind copying of the host culture, or totally abandoning one's cultural heritage. Integration is opting for a compromise between both cultures"? Integration does not mean assimilation, but rather cultural accommodation.It is only with a workable successful compromise that foreign bodies become a source of flavor. To continue with the 'foreign body' analogy, 'connective tissue' is needed for the well-being of all parties; otherwise one ends up with a polarized fragmented nation composed of separate segregated islets. There must be a minimum cultural unifying force shared by all. Such a process requires the participation of all, migrants and host countries.

I think I'm being down to earth and practical, not bigoted or racist


#28    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 June 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

Lol, that smiley you used was very suitable for calling me a racist! How can I be a racist when I myself am Egyptian? And no, I'm not one of those self-hating people, I'm very comfortable with who I am, and proud of my heritage :) You slipped into the ever-ready, easy answer: "racist", not applicable in my case!

May I remind you that I said in my previous post "Integration does not necessarily mean blind copying of the host culture, or totally abandoning one's cultural heritage. Integration is opting for a compromise between both cultures"? Integration does not mean assimilation, but rather cultural accommodation.It is only with a workable successful compromise that foreign bodies become a source of flavor. To continue with the 'foreign body' analogy, 'connective tissue' is needed for the well-being of all parties; otherwise one ends up with a polarized fragmented nation composed of separate segregated islets. There must be a minimum cultural unifying force shared by all. Such a process requires the participation of all, migrants and host countries.

I think I'm being down to earth and practical, not bigoted or racist


I actually agree with you,but not up to the point where people from differnt cultures are forced to adopt "the Australian culture" just because they live here. Immigrants have changed the australian culture since i was a child in the 1950's, in many ways; almost all for the better. Now, modern australian culture reflects a cutural diversity I never knew as a child, and as new cultures blend into it, they will evolve it even more .

I didnt mean to suggest you were racist. I was poking fun, in a ironical way, at your comment that proponents of assimilation/integration can be considered racist. That is indeed the public and govt view here, because the idea of assimliation/integration of our native peoples is considered racist, and this   attitude is also transferred to our approach to immigrants..

Perhaps it is beacuse austrlain cuture is only about 200 years old and our national identy only a bit over 100, and in that time has always been changing/ evolving.

We therefore dont see  change/evolution of society as a threat to our cultural identity, like a person form europe, whose culture might stretch back thousands of years, could.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 June 2013 - 09:31 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#29    Arbenol

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:37 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

That is indeed the public and govt view here, because the idea of assimliation/integration of our native peoples is considered racist, and this   attitude is also transferred to our approach to immigrants..

I agree that it's misguided to view cultural assimilation as racist. But Australia is in something of a unique position. It's attempts to assimilate Aborigines fits many definitions of genocide. Consequently, it's probably a little sensitive to the term.


#30    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:36 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I actually agree with you,but not up to the point where people from differnt cultures are forced to adopt "the Australian culture" just because they live here. Immigrants have changed the australian culture since i was a child in the 1950's, in many ways; almost all for the better. Now, modern australian culture reflects a cutural diversity I never knew as a child, and as new cultures blend into it, they will evolve it even more .

I didnt mean to suggest you were racist. I was poking fun, in a ironical way, at your comment that proponents of assimilation/integration can be considered racist. That is indeed the public and govt view here, because the idea of assimliation/integration of our native peoples is considered racist, and this   attitude is also transferred to our approach to immigrants..

Perhaps it is beacuse austrlain cuture is only about 200 years old and our national identy only a bit over 100, and in that time has always been changing/ evolving.

We therefore dont see  change/evolution of society as a threat to our cultural identity, like a person form europe, whose culture might stretch back thousands of years, could.

I know, no offence taken, I too was poking fun at you, that it's "devilish" to call me racist :P

You still persist in using integration as a synonum for assimilation!

As Arbenol68 mentioned, Australia is a different case. In Europe the rumble is rising and unless a real effort is done by all parties to realistically address the problem it might end up ugly. A European friend of mine summerized that point of view when she said about immigrants' unwillingness to adapt to and adopt their new country 'they reject us, they are here only for the money, but disrespect our culture'. Take a look at the arguments on the UK forum...putting the onus of social cohesion and harmony on only one of the parties will simply not work. I am not talking about people's religious beliefs, how they pray or what language they speak at home, but when some try to recreate and enforce their home country in parts of the new country, then it's time to seriously consider the politically incorrect concept of integration, before things arrive to the boiling point.





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