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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#2266    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:33 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Yes, Ive agreed that it seems likely the description as given in the OLB of the buying of Misselja is prior to the Kalta/Minerva war now.

So I stand at the time frame the OLB has it in. I think its possible ships from Canaan had been in the area of Marseille and Genoa from around 1700BC bringing in priests from Sidon.

Of course it is possible that seafaring people from ancient Canaan arrived in Massilia at that time, but it's not very likely they were called Phoenicians ("Fonesar" or something similar in the OLB).

Their "Palm Land" (according to the OLB) or  "Palmyra" didn't exist under that name: it was a Greek/Roman name.

Why would the Fryans give them the name "Phoenicians", and not call them by their own name, the Cnn, or Canana?


#2267    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:38 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Only some Sidonese priests at first, so I doubt we'd see much 'Phoenician' evidence then, Phoenicians were good at taking on local things, becoming a new people in the process. They adapted and took on local Gods, we'd be lucky to see any clear evidence of what we know as Phoenician at that date anyway imo.

Except dna J2, which does happen to be all through Italy.

We do see Phoenician influence in Massilia, although this one dates from around 400 BCE: the Massilia Sacrifice Tablet (discovered in 1844) I linked to in a former post. However, it proves they had kept their own religion intact.

And DNA evidence could come from a much later arrival of the Phoenicians.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#2268    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

Of course it is possible that seafaring people from ancient Canaan arrived in Massilia at that time, but it's not very likely they were called Phoenicians ("Fonesar" or something similar in the OLB).

Their "Palm Land" (according to the OLB) or  "Palmyra" didn't exist under that name: it was a Greek/Roman name.

Why would the Fryans give them the name "Phoenicians", and not call them by their own name, the Cnn, or Canana?

Early on they are just called Thyriers or mentions of the Sidon Gola/Golan.
The area is called Phonisia at that time though, that is Palmland.
Palm Land is Phoenicia imo, not just Palmyra.

Phon can be close to fan, if not the same word, phon-isa could be fan land, as palms look like and were used as. It may be a Fryan word, an area they called Phonisia with Canaan being the local term.
The Greeks may have taken this early known word and interpreted it as Phoenicia, they (the Fryans) might have actually been the inventors of it.

Yes, dna may be later but nevertheless Etruscans show it.

An old wise lady friend I have said something strange when talking about Leonard Cohen, who was Jewish, she said mid sentence..."well, we're all Jewish"...

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#2269    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Early on they are just called Thyriers or mentions of the Sidon Gola/Golan.
The area is called Phonisia at that time though, that is Palmland.
Palm Land is Phoenicia imo, not just Palmyra.

Phon can be close to fan, if not the same word, phon-isa could be fan land, as palms look like and were used as. It may be a Fryan word, an area they called Phonisia with Canaan being the local term.
The Greeks may have taken this early known word and interpreted it as Phoenicia, they (the Fryans) might have actually been the inventors of it.

Yes, dna may be later but nevertheless Etruscans show it.

An old wise lady friend I have said something strange when talking about Leonard Cohen, who was Jewish, she said mid sentence..."well, we're all Jewish"...

"We're all Jewish"... no doubt based on the Bible (Noah and his merry men)

Well, "early on they are just called Thyriers".... it's mentioned in the vary same chapter. The name "Phonisia" suddenly pops up, and is explained as "Palm Land" :

The Gola, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother. In order to make a favourable impression, they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth; but they had better have been called abstainers from the truth, or, in short, “triuwendne” as our seafaring people afterwards called them. When they were well established, their merchants exchanged their beautiful copper weapons and all sorts of jewels for our iron weapons and hides of wild beasts, which were abundant in our southern countries; but the Gola celebrated all sorts of vile and monstrous festivals, which the inhabitants of the coast promoted with their wanton women and sweet poisonous wine. If any of our people had so conducted himself that his life was in danger, the Gola afforded him a refuge, and sent him to Phonisia, that is, Palmland.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ay

I know Phoenicia wasn't only Palmyra, but the OLB suggests the names are equal. Like I live in the Netherlands, but half the world calls my country Holland, which is only a part of the Netherlands. It never fails to irritate the Frisians, lol.


The exact etymology of the name "Palmyra" is unknown, although some scholars believe it was related to the palm trees in the area. Others, however, believe it may have come from an incorrect translation of the name "Tadmor" (cf. Colledge, Seyrig, Starcky, and others).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmyra

It had a Semitic name, but it got its name from the Romans when they discovered it around 30 BCE, and it means "City of Palm Trees":

(Toen de rijke oase, gelegen tussen de Romeinse provincie Syrië en Mesopotamië, omstreeks 30 v.Chr. de aandacht trok van de Romeinen, noemden zij de stad Palmyra (stad van de palmbomen)).

http://nl.wikipedia....almyra_(Syriƫ)




Phenix or Phoenix has to do with a red-purple color, both for the bird that rose form its ashes and the Phoenician dye. Later on the systematical name for the date palm became "Phoenix", named after the Phoenician palm trees.

+++


The romance of the Phoenicians' earliest days, of their migrations and settlements through western Asia, are even dimmer to our vision than those of the early Babylonians and Hebrews. They have not, like the Hebrews, left us their own written record of their past; nor have we, as with the Babylonians, discovered long inscriptions and extensive libraries amid the remnants of their ancient cities. Hence we know of the Phoenicians chiefly from their enemies, from what was said of them in the writings of later Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. Even the name by which we call them is not their own. It was the Greeks who first spoke of the beautiful semi-tropical territory as "Phoenicia," which means the land of palms.

This lovely "land of palms," Phoenicia, lies along the middle of the Mediterranean's eastern shore.


http://www.publicboo...oenicia_jf.html


HISTORY OF PHOENICIA
by George Rawlinson / 1889


Phoenicé, or Phoenicia, was the name originally given by the Greeks—and afterwards adopted from them by the Romans—to the coast region of the Mediterranean, where it faces the west between the thirty-second and the thirty-sixth parallels. Here, it would seem, in their early voyagings, the Pre-Homeric Greeks first came upon a land where the palm-tree was not only indigenous, but formed a leading and striking characteristic, everywhere along the low sandy shore lifting its tuft of feathery leaves into the bright blue sky, high above the undergrowth of fig, and pomegranate, and alive. Hence they called the tract Phoenicia, or "the Land of Palms;" and the people who inhabited it the Phoenicians, or "the Palm-tree people."

The term was from the first applied with a good deal of vagueness. It was probably originally given to the region opposite Cyprus, from Gabala in the north—now Jebili—to Antaradus (Tortosa) and Marathus (Amrith) towards the south, where the palm-tree was first seen growing in rich abundance. The palm is the numismatic emblem of Aradus,11 and though not now very frequent in the region which Strabo calls "the Aradian coast-tract,"12 must anciently have been among its chief ornaments. As the Grecian knowledge of the coast extended southward, and a richer and still richer growth of the palm was continually noticed, almost every town and every village being embosomed in a circle of palm groves, the name extended itself until it reached as far south at any rate as Gaza, or (according to some) as Rhinocolura and the Torrens Ægypti. Northward the name seems never to have passed beyond Cape Posideium (Possidi) at the foot of Mount Casius, the tract between this and the range of Taurus being always known as Syria, never as Phoenecia or Phoenicé.

(...)

There are some grounds for considering Sidon to have been the most ancient of the Phoenician towns. In the Book of Genesis Sidon is called "the eldest born of Canaan,"44 and in Joshua, where Tyre is simply a "fenced city" or fort,45 it is "Great Zidon."46 Homer frequently mentions it,47 whereas he takes no notice of Tyre. Justin makes it the first town which the Phoenicians built on arriving at the shores of the Mediterranean.48 The priority of Sidon in this respect was, however, not universally acknowledged, since Tyre claims on some of her coins to have been "the mother-city of the Sidonians,"49


http://www.gutenberg...31-h/2331-h.htm


.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 09:59 AM.


#2270    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:11 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:



Yes, dna may be later but nevertheless Etruscans show it.



Is it even possible to distinguish between a genetic link dating from let's say 1800 BCE and one from 600 BCE?

I have not the faintest idea.


#2271    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

I did say that it was called Phonisia in the OLB early, but they were not called Phonisar then, only Thyriers.

Palmland is Phoenicia. territory as "Phoenicia," which means the land of palms.
I really don't think Palmyra has anything to do with anything.

If the term Phoenicia means land of the palms, its hard to understand how it also mean blood red through the word phoinos.

Greek Phoinikes, people of the red - might even be a different word to Phoenicia or Phoenicia means land of the red (people) not land of palms in an etymological sense.

Phoenix appears to have nothing to do with red colour.

The name Phoenicians, like Latin Poenī (adj. poenicus, later pūnicus), comes from Greek Φοίνικες (Phoínikes), attested since Homer and influenced by phoînix "Tyrian purple, crimson; murex" (itself from phoinós "blood red").[9] The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites". The folk-etymological association of phoiniki with phoînix mirrors that in Akkadian which tied kinaḫni, kinaḫḫi "Canaan; Phoenicia" to kinaḫḫu "red-dyed wool".[11][12] Note that there is no connection to the superficially similar phoenix, though this term is also ultimately from Ancient Egyptian, via Greek and Latin (hence the "ph" and "oe").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 11:22 AM.

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#2272    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

How interesting that palm is a word from root PEL ie; Pelasgians, were Pelasgians in fact an early Phoenician, which sounds plausible to me.

Latin palma "palm of the hand," also "flat end of an oar; palm tree," from PIE *pel- "to spread out; flat"
http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=palm

Not flatlanders or such but palm landers. Pelasgians sailed and were in Greece at the time of the Trojan War.

Pelasgians might be palm landers, who once they started their dye trade became known as reds, Phoinikes, in Greek, which spread out as Phoenicians.

Palms are not in Nth Europe, they might use the word fan. Or FON.

If the OLB has been copied through the ages words might also have been updated is another option of why later names are used.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 11:20 AM.

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#2273    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:41 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

-1- I did say that it was called Phonisia in the OLB early, but they were not called Phonisar then, only Thyriers.

-2- Palmland is Phoenicia. territory as "Phoenicia," which means the land of palms.
I really don't think Palmyra has anything to do with anything.

-3-If the term Phoenicia means land of the palms, its hard to understand how it also mean blood red through the word phoinos.

-4-Greek Phoinikes, people of the red - might even be a different word to Phoenicia or Phoenicia means land of the red (people) not land of palms in an etymological sense.

-5- Phoenix appears to have nothing to do with red colour.

The name Phoenicians, like Latin Poenī (adj. poenicus, later pūnicus), comes from Greek Φοίνικες (Phoínikes), attested since Homer and influenced by phoînix "Tyrian purple, crimson; murex" (itself from phoinós "blood red").[9] The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites". The folk-etymological association of phoiniki with phoînix mirrors that in Akkadian which tied kinaḫni, kinaḫḫi "Canaan; Phoenicia" to kinaḫḫu "red-dyed wool".[11][12] Note that there is no connection to the superficially similar phoenix, though this term is also ultimately from Ancient Egyptian, via Greek and Latin (hence the "ph" and "oe").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia


-1- But you suggested that they were first called only Thyrians, and later on Phoenicians. That is not true. In fact it is nothing but Thyrians and their land is called Phoenicia.

-2- Palmyra has been explained as a 'city of palm trees'. And for an obvious reason: it's the Romans who gave it its Latin name, and "palm" is Latin for 'palm of the hand', a way to explain the shape of the leaves of the date palm.

-3- Phonisia only means 'Palmland' in the OLB. Most probably based on point -2-

-4- OK, so here you contradict yourself:"Land of the Red (People)", not Palm Land.

-5- Phoenix is just one way of spelling it, and the bird is always depicted in reds and purples, 'hot' colors, because it is engulfed in flames.

Maybe Wiki says there is no connection, but for me there obvious is.

And as you see, Phoinix (Homer) has to do with crimson, red, blood red.

Then the older Mycenean and Egyptian etymology, and you can forget about Phoenicia meaning "Palmland".

But I will check that Wiki page.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 11:46 AM.


#2274    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

How interesting that palm is a word from root PEL ie; Pelasgians, were Pelasgians in fact an early Phoenician, which sounds plausible to me.

Latin palma "palm of the hand," also "flat end of an oar; palm tree," from PIE *pel- "to spread out; flat"
http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=palm

Not flatlanders or such but palm landers. Pelasgians sailed and were in Greece at the time of the Trojan War.

Pelasgians might be palm landers, who once they started their dye trade became known as reds, Phoinikes, in Greek, which spread out as Phoenicians.

Palms are not in Nth Europe, they might use the word fan. Or FON.

If the OLB has been copied through the ages words might also have been updated is another option of why later names are used.

The PIE "pel" means flat, because the palm of your hand is flat when outstretched. We have a saying here, "slaan met de vlakke hand", meaning "to hit with an open hand", or literally "to hit with a flat hand", ie: the palm of your hand.

And it is suggested that the name of the Pelasgians hinted at an outstretched, calm sea, not so much 'low land'.

And as you yourself posted, the older Mycenean and Egyptian forms of the name Phoenicia mean "Asiatic, Semitie" :

The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] "Asiatics, Semites"

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#2275    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Is it even possible to distinguish between a genetic link dating from let's say 1800 BCE and one from 600 BCE?

I have not the faintest idea.
Not sure what you mean.

If they dug up a skeleton from a tomb they knew was dated 1800BC and it had the same dna (J2 for example) as one they dug out of a tomb dated 600BC, it would have a solid genetic link as far as I know. Then they narrow it down more to precise dna groups as shown in the Etruscan article below.


The Etruscan samples are interesting and I'd like to know more if they have done work on the burials mentioned at the end of the story - cormac?

But as it stands they only 'know' Etruscans came from Anatolia because of a genetic link dating back stuff all but appearing to represent an ancestral line of Tuscans and same gene is found in Turkey. Then they apparently get a date of 3500 years ago for most common ancestor, but that is an estimate from variant changes. (again as far as I know).

Piazza and his colleagues studied the Y chromosome from males who had been living in selected areas of Tuscany between the Arno and Tiber rivers, notably Murlo, Volterra and Casentino, where the Etruscans were known to have concentrated. The men's families had been living in the region for at least three generations and their surnames were Etruscan in origin.
The team compared the men's DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos, the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia and the southern Balkans.
They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and were most closely related to those of men from Turkey. "In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey," Piazza said.
Conventional genetic analysis indicated that the most recent common ancestors for the Turkish and Tuscan men lived about 3,500 years ago, Piazza said. That, in turn, would suggest that the Lydians were the forefathers of the Villanovan culture, so-named because the first remains of the early Iron Age culture were found at Villanova near Bologna.
Piazza said the team would now expand the analysis to include other men from Tuscany, and would also look at DNA from excavated Etruscan burials.

http://articles.lati...sci-etruscans18

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#2276    Abramelin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

Ah yes, they analyzed bones, of course, lol.

I was thinking about modern populations.

I need some coffee and a good movie.


#2277    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

-1- But you suggested that they were first called only Thyrians, and later on Phoenicians. That is not true. In fact it is nothing but Thyrians and their land is called Phoenicia.

-2- Palmyra has been explained as a 'city of palm trees'. And for an obvious reason: it's the Romans who gave it its Latin name, and "palm" is Latin for 'palm of the hand', a way to explain the shape of the leaves of the date palm.

-3- Phonisia only means 'Palmland' in the OLB. Most probably based on point -2-

-4- OK, so here you contradict yourself:"Land of the Red (People)", not Palm Land.

-5- Phoenix is just one way of spelling it, and the bird is always depicted in reds and purples, 'hot' colors, because it is engulfed in flames.

Maybe Wiki says there is no connection, but for me there obvious is.

And as you see, Phoinix (Homer) has to do with crimson, red, blood red.

Then the older Mycenean and Egyptian etymology, and you can forget about Phoenicia meaning "Palmland".

But I will check that Wiki page.

.
-1- You said this:
Of course it is possible that seafaring people from ancient Canaan arrived in Massilia at that time, but it's not very likely they were called Phoenicians ("Fonesar" or something similar in the OLB).

So I was saying they weren't called Fonesar at the time they arrived in Massilia. The coast where Tyre is IS called Phonisia though.

I answered with:
Early on they are just called Thyriers or mentions of the Sidon Gola/Golan.
The area is called Phonisia at that time though, that is Palmland.

-2- Yes but I do not associate Palmland Phoenicia with Palmyra nor do I think the OLB is.


-4- I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I am showing that Palm Land is not etymologically connected to Phoenicia but that the Fryans in calling it Palm Land could also be able to call it Phonisia based on a term meaning palm, that is FAN. Meaning the term may be a Fryan one, not a later Greek one as used in the OLB.
The Greek term came from Egyptian meaning red, crimson and the term in the OLB used by Fryans could relate to the word palm via fan.
Like alligator and many examples in the OLB its just another one - is it Fryan or Greek/Latin etc. There always seems to be etymology for both when you look hard enough.

-5- Phoenix from Egyptian could equate to its large tail, a fan. In fact when you fan the flames, they get redder, hotter. Just that WIki etymology says: Note that there is no connection to the superficially similar phoenix,

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.

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#2278    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:11 PM

OK, the Fryans don't use PH - so Phonisia has to be a foreign word as thats how its spelt in the OLB. (Not that Ive checked the original but the TRANSLITERATION has Phonisar).
You threw me off with FONESAR - where did you see that F? lol

I just try all angles then cross them off one at a time. I'm not afraid to be wrong or seemingly contradicting myself, I want the truth. Only investigating each little point thoroughly will give me the answers.

Therefore, it has to be the Greek version of the word or someone who used it prior to Greeks. Agreeing with you now.

If this wasn't written down until 600BC, the recent word of that time would be used anyway I'd say.

The timeframe of the action might be disputable but the name could be a loophole from being written down in 600BC.

Even if it was copied from earlier sources inscribed on burgh walls.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 01:31 PM.

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#2279    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:22 PM

Lets say that event was inscribed on the burgh wall around 1700BC. It might say Palm Land coast, which might even be why those bits are added, to explain an earlier meaning which they have not used anymore when copying it.

By the time its being copied for the benefit of future generations, they have used words contemporary to the time in telling the story. I don't mean around 800AD, I mean initially, when Adela wrote it, 600BC.

The below does give indications it was written c. 1200BC on the burgh wall. It also co-incides with an event at that time we know of as Trojan War time and Ulysses so it does appear correctly in the chronology so it's not like Adela has guessed, the time frame must have been written on the burgh wall too - the title is Adelas but the timeframes are right. It's whether Adela has used words contemporary to her 600BC when copying it. Just like the English translation has done. Italians has been substituted for Krekalanders.


IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.




After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Italians in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 01:43 PM.

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#2280    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

I am just about to read the "epic of Baal" which you posted Abe ............. can you please tell me that it is not a known fake  this time before i waste my time .

i think it was Puzzler who posted a while ago about Aristotle mentioning that he thought the earliest origins of the jews came out of India , i think that they possibly did after maybe . the Kurukshetra war , and settled in many lands . the first Brahmen are supposed to have been ejected , probably taking their religion with them ,  together with their equine/ aristocratic class . these Brahmen  who used to keep their secrets to themselves , and sell their secrets/prayers/rites to the elites were then established above the Elite aristocrats in various places , and in a later war of two massive religions the religion of the Brahmen (Abraham ) won out............and as is normal the victors got to re-write history .

The people of India forgot their Mahabarata history , because the common people won the war which ejected the priests and the elite , because it is known that the common people were not allowed to take part in religion, and the Brahmen took all that knowledge to Mesopotamia/syria/assyria and other places ..and it was only when the persians re-invaded India that they took back and explained to the Indians what all the old writings and old philosophy in the books that had been left actually meant ..........i think there is no trace of a re-conquering of the Arians , is because it is the old Indian Genes that left with the Brahman class that re-entered India , and therefore the Genes were the same , so there is no trace of it . i still like to think Mary of Magdala may have been Mary of Maghada

The people of the 1st exodus were of a religion that believed in Crishna as their Christ , but much earlier than the Christian Christ . Although there was a common origin of the two religions , because the two groups were so far apart , and over a long period of time the two religions evolved different beliefs and those from Sidon.....SDN...STN .....who eventually were the losers had there version of the religion vilified , and they were the ones portrayed to believe in SaToN , SeiTon and the D'Evil (The evil one) .

The winners who presumably sided with possibly the Achaeans/Greeks or Romans were then in a position to re-write history .......they did not want to admit that the God was named Crishna , and came from India so the Brahman becomes Abraham , and Saras-vati becomes Sarai , and Chrishna becomes Jesus the Christ, born in year (1 AD, although this has changed over the years ) to hide the origins .

I think the Arrian Heresy was not a heresy started by a man named Arrian........but was a remembered history that the original Chrishna was an Arian from India from much earlier .

The reason the Armenians , the Bulgars  etc were persecuted was because maybe they remembered this , because Canaan was not originally near Israel but was in their territory, and they were probably the decendants. .........The reason the original Britts were up for persecution could be because they were originally Vlachs who were the Vlash, the Wlash , the Welsh...........along with other fleeing nationals like the Albans (Albanians )...........


Cant prove any of this ,so please remember its just my gut feelings.. just thought i would put down some of my thoughts so you know where i am coming from ! and i state now this is just my overall impression of events from my lifetimes reading so far ....... no doubt much of it i have understood wrongly, the Chronology of it i find very difficult........but Hey-Ho .why not stand up and be counted ( or even laughed at ) now and again  , i am sure i can take it . and every new book i read i am sure will either add or detract from my current impressions and opinions .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 22 January 2013 - 01:55 PM.





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