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Where Science and Buddhism Meet

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#16    Leonardo

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 05:55 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 15 June 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

1. Buddhism leads people to the realisation that the universe they experience and their mind are the same thing which they call oneness.

Not quite.

The physical universe and the mind are complimentary, in that the physical universe exists and is independent of the mind, but it is the mind which allows us to translate this physical universe into our expriences of it.

What you have called 'Buddhism' is actually mysticism. I agree that 'oneness' exists in Buddhist philosophy, but it is not as you describe - a mystic state - but instead is a state of awareness of the universe as a system. Modern Buddhism has evolved from it's ancient roots and is largely no longer the 'search for the mystic dream state' often promoted by Western practitioners who have not grasped the reality of Buddhist thought.

Quote

2. So lets ask are atoms real? The double slit experiment shows that when theres no information on an atom it isnt a particle. Instead its a strange thing called a wavefunction which represents all possibilities. In Buddhism the prime substance is the same thing and it too represents all possbilites. In Buddhism the mind brings into being a reality out of the prime substance when it attempts awareness (gains information).

This would be useful if the double-slit experiment was relevant to atoms, but it is not. Being part of Quantum Physics, the double-slit experiment is relevant to quantum particles - which an atom is not. Specifically, the double-slit experiment was conducted using photons - quantum particles of light.

Secondly, the quantum particle does not exist in a 'waveform state' if unobserved. The wavefunction is merely descriptive of all states a quantum particle may exist in, but does not describe what state it does exist in.

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#17    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 06:50 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 15 June 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

1. The physical universe and the mind are complimentary, in that the physical universe exists and is independent of the mind, but it is the mind which allows us to translate this physical universe into our expriences of it. What you have called 'Buddhism' is actually mysticism. I agree that 'oneness' exists in Buddhist philosophy, but it is not as you describe - a mystic state - but instead is a state of awareness of the universe as a system.

2. This would be useful if the double-slit experiment was relevant to atoms, but it is not. Being part of Quantum Physics, the double-slit experiment is relevant to quantum particles - which an atom is not. Specifically, the double-slit experiment was conducted using photons - quantum particles of light.

3. Secondly, the quantum particle does not exist in a 'waveform state' if unobserved. The wavefunction is merely descriptive of all states a quantum particle may exist in, but does not describe what state it does exist in.

1. Philosophy has many different camps when it comes to understanding the true nature of reality. Believing in an objective material universe behind our experiences of reality is one such stance but non-dualism is another. Materialism can be shown to be wrong, non-dualism has never been shown to be wrong and and non-dualism is not mysticism. The experience of oneness is not a mystic state and I dont know why you think this. I suspect you think Buddhism is a religion like Christainity when it isnt its a non-dualist philosophy. Oneness is just the realisation that all awareness is mental perception. Many have a problem considering reality is just the mind.
2. People who havent studied physics but maybe watched a dual-slit experiment being done with photons on Youtube could make the mistake of thinking it only works on photons. It doesnt. It works on atoms and even small objects. I dont know if my knowledge is still up to date about the largest object they've got it to work on but when I was at college it was buckyballs - http://en.wikipedia....insterfullerene
3. Particle behaviour ceases with no measurement and is replaced with wave behaviour which is the wavefunction. Wavefunctions have different properties than particles such as the ability to produce an interference pattern, non-locality, quantum teleportation etc.

Non-duality is the unification of both being and non-being into one state. When non-duality is collapsed you then get being and non-being seperated from each other. The wavefunction is the same unification of being and non-being only with atomic particles. When you measure the wavefunction it seperates into being (particle) and non-being (the other possibilities for particle that now dont exist).


#18    StarMountainKid

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 06:53 PM

You haven't answered a previous question of mine.

Quote

Mr Right Wing said:

However as any good scientist or philosopher will tell you theres not one shred of evidence that anything exists independantly of your mind.

If nothing exists independent of the mind, how could the universe have existed before the human mind evolved?

Mr Right Wing said:

Materalists dont like the idea that ones perceptions alter reality and its because they dont like the fact that ones perceptions are reality. They praise scientists such as Galileo while ignoring the fact that as all perceptions are created by the mind the mind is at the centre of the universe. The mind collapses probabilities (prime substance) into reality when it gains information (awareness). What you actually perceive when you look out of your eyes determines reality.

Again, I must say perceptions alter reality only inside one's mind.  The mind creates its own reality within itself. The stars exist even when they are not perceived by the eye.

The mind collapses probabilities into reality when it gains information, but that reality exists inside the mind. Quantum probabilities are collapsing into reality all the time outside of the mind as elementary particles interact with one another.  Mind is not necessary for the reality of the universe, nor does mind cause the universe to exist as it does externally.

I remember a statement by a Zen Buddhist master, though I don't remember his name: "There was no conscious awareness at the creation of the universe." The true nature of Reality lies beyond mind, beyond consciousness. The mind is only aware of itself.

Edited by StarMountainKid, 15 June 2012 - 07:19 PM.

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#19    StarMountainKid

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 07:36 PM

CloeB, very nice video introduction to the Dalai Lama's book, which I haven't read. I once attended a lecture by the Dalai Lama, and it was, needless to say, a great experience. I've been interested in Buddhism and Zen and Taoism all my life. Spirituality without an agenda.

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#20    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 15 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

1. If nothing exists independent of the mind, how could the universe have existed before the human mind evolved?
2. Again, I must say perceptions alter reality only inside one's mind.  The mind creates its own reality within itself.
3. The stars exist even when they are not perceived by the eye.
4. The mind collapses probabilities into reality when it gains information, but that reality exists inside the mind. Quantum probabilities are collapsing into reality all the time outside of the mind as elementary particles interact with one another.

1. In non-dualism the mind is not created by reality it is reality which is created by the mind.
2. It is the mind which creates all perceptions including those perceptions we call reality.
3. A star is a collection of perceptions created by the mind.
4. Again as your perceptions exist around you your mind isnt located inside your brain.

May I also point out the reason why ancients believed these things is more than philosophical reasoning. They used drugs which allowed them to directly experience their consciousness as a field surrounding them and that field is reality. I've been on high doses of the salvia too (its legal where I live and they sell it in shops).

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 15 June 2012 - 09:41 PM.


#21    ChloeB

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 11:02 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 15 June 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

CloeB, very nice video introduction to the Dalai Lama's book, which I haven't read. I once attended a lecture by the Dalai Lama, and it was, needless to say, a great experience. I've been interested in Buddhism and Zen and Taoism all my life. Spirituality without an agenda.

Glad you liked it, SMK.  It's a pretty short little book and he doesn't try to substantiate Buddhism or spirituality with making a lot of outlandish claims that science confirms it, but it was really good, pretty simple for someone like me to understand as well.  I can't believe you got to see the Dalai Lama, that's usually on a lot of people's list of things to do before they die, but that's awesome.  I'm interested in all that too, but you are way ahead of me, hehe.

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#22    ChloeB

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 15 June 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

May I also point out the reason why ancients believed these things is more than philosophical reasoning. They used drugs which allowed them to directly experience their consciousness as a field surrounding them and that field is reality. I've been on high doses of the salvia too (its legal where I live and they sell it in shops).

You know what I always think about....okay so you saw the movie, Avatar, how they do the consciousness transfer?  That's not that unrealistic to think that's possible right?  But if you could so be out of your own body and in another, feeling like you are now that body and not the other, doesn't that sort of make it seem like consciousness is separate?  I mean I guess it doesn't necessarily, but it seems that way, if it could disconnect like that and believe it is another body.  Just a thought, a weird one, I had, lol, but you know what I'm saying?  If consciousness is so rooted in the mind, that shouldn't be possible should it?

Edited by ChloeB, 15 June 2012 - 11:07 PM.

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#23    Lion6969

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 11:10 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 15 June 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:



Hi Mr Right Wing

1. How can a mental perception be located outside one's head? All mental perceptions are located inside the head.
2. ok.
3. The reality of the concept "desk" is a mental perception which only exists withing one's mind, but the reality of the atoms that make up the "desk" exist external to perception.  I think we agree here.

A. I agree, but I object to using the term "Reality" as our perceptions within the mind. The true Reality exists external to the mind.
B.
How do you correlate that with your #1. statement that "Colour and sound are mental perceptions located outside of your head"?
If nothing exists independently of the mind, how could the universe have existed before the human mind evolved?

A Chinese Ch'an master, Hung Po or someone said, "The true nature of reality is invisible and cannot be perceived by the conscious mind."  This "true nature" is the emptiness or Void from which all things arise, and this potential does exist independent of mind, as he says.

Nice reply star ;)


#24    Lion6969

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 11:33 PM

Non dualism leads pantheism or panentheism. Both a are seriously flawed. Although I am not a materialist, I do believe outside of the mind there is a physical reality! It's true nature is unknown and cannot be proven one way or another. We could be sitting on mars with electrodes in us and living this simulation. Can you prove otherwise? No!

I agree with Leo- this is more mysticism! If a bus hit you head on, and it's the mind that creates that reality, thus you should be able to manipulate reality matter itself.


#25    Bildr

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 12:32 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 15 June 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

You haven't answered a previous question of mine.


If nothing exists independent of the mind, how could the universe have existed before the human mind evolved?

That is a involuntary way to affirm that we are alone in this universe. What IF consciousness IS truly the essence of our universe and that beings does exist since ''the beginning?'' the big bang is a theory that fist our current understanding of the universe. I know I have no fact or proof about what i'm affirming, but like i said; WHAT IF? You know, most theoretical scientist does says that the only empirical and absolute knowledge we have about the universe, is that we know SO LITTLE!
Even the famous Neil Degrasse says that too(We Don't Know What's Driving 96% Of The Universe);

Edited by Bildr, 16 June 2012 - 12:33 AM.

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#26    Bildr

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 12:43 AM

View PostLion6969, on 15 June 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Non dualism leads pantheism or panentheism. Both a are seriously flawed. Although I am not a materialist, I do believe outside of the mind there is a physical reality! It's true nature is unknown and cannot be proven one way or another. We could be sitting on mars with electrodes in us and living this simulation. Can you prove otherwise? No!

I agree with Leo- this is more mysticism! If a bus hit you head on, and it's the mind that creates that reality, thus you should be able to manipulate reality matter itself.

Well I've posted another video called ''black whole'' in the same forum/subject here(  ( http://www.unexplain...l=+black +whole) you should watch it and then you would understand my point here); and if you think about it, if the mind is the matrix of our universe...we are not alone! We are all mind co-creating this universe so that would say that my limit to ''manipulate'' this corner of the universe is limited by what the other humans on this planet.So indeed that would make our universe one DAMN complex equilibrium. I know that would seems far fetched, but that's only a ''theory'', as far as i know.

Edited by Bildr, 16 June 2012 - 12:45 AM.

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#27    StarMountainKid

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 02:36 AM

Bildr said:

What IF consciousness IS truly the essence of our universe and that beings does exist since ''the beginning?'' the big bang is a theory that fist our current understanding of the universe.

You could be right, of course. Why is there a universe in which consciousness can evolve? Is this a predetermined imperative for the creation of universes? Our universe may just be one of many that come into being, most of which are configured in such a way that precludes the evolution of conscious beings.

Our universe has conscious beings in it because in our particular universe conscious beings must evolve. Our universe is configured in that way. Sort of an anthropic principle.

I think for consciousness to be the essence of the universe, our usual personal kind of consciousness can hardly be said to be one with this universal consciousness. What kind of awareness must we have to commune with this universal consciousness?

I would think this universal consciousness would be pure consciousness, pure awareness. I consider pure awareness the essence of Buddhism. Especially Zen (although there is little Buddhism in Zen. Zen is derived from Ch'an which arose in China, which itself is based on Taoism with some Buddhist ideas added to it.)

In any event, how does one's mind merge with this theoretical universal consciousness? If one could achieve this truly, without fooling one's self, only then could one say the thing is real. Mostly we don't have time or the inclination or patience to actually practice what we preach. We all like to philosophize in the grand manner, but our introverted minds remain small and full of personal agendas.

I must say, mine included.

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#28    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 06:59 AM

View PostBildr, on 16 June 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

That is a involuntary way to affirm that we are alone in this universe.
It says nothing of the sort. His question brings up the point that this magical thinking is incompatible with science.

Quote

What IF consciousness IS truly the essence of our universe and that beings does exist since ''the beginning?'' the big bang is a theory that fist our current understanding of the universe. I know I have no fact or proof about what i'm affirming, but like i said; WHAT IF? You know, most theoretical scientist does says that the only empirical and absolute knowledge we have about the universe, is that we know SO LITTLE!
And with make believe you go that step further by knowing nothing at all.

If consciousness is the essence of the universe, then everytime you're unconscious, the universe ceases to exist.

Edited by Rlyeh, 16 June 2012 - 07:01 AM.


#29    Leonardo

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 10:31 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 15 June 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

2. People who havent studied physics but maybe watched a dual-slit experiment being done with photons on Youtube could make the mistake of thinking it only works on photons. It doesnt. It works on atoms and even small objects. I dont know if my knowledge is still up to date about the largest object they've got it to work on but when I was at college it was buckyballs - http://en.wikipedia....insterfullerene
3. Particle behaviour ceases with no measurement and is replaced with wave behaviour which is the wavefunction. Wavefunctions have different properties than particles such as the ability to produce an interference pattern, non-locality, quantum teleportation etc.

No, it doesn't.

The double-slit experiment works with quantum objects, and no macroscopic object can be a quantum object. Not even an atom is a quantum object.

What these other objects, like Bose-Einstein Condensates, superfluids, superconductors, atoms and even lasers, are, are quantum systems.

While they may exhibit some quantum behaviours, they cannot behave exactly as a quantum object would and are not compatible with experiments designed to show those properties of quantum objects.

The wavefunction is not a concrete phenomenon, like a wave. It is an abstract, a mathematical representation of all possible states of a quantum object (or property). The quantum object does not "exist as a wavefunction" when unobserved.

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#30    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostLion6969, on 15 June 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

1. Non dualism leads pantheism or panentheism. Both a are seriously flawed. Although I am not a materialist.
2. I do believe outside of the mind there is a physical reality! It's true nature is unknown and cannot be proven one way or another.
3. We could be sitting on mars with electrodes in us and living this simulation. Can you prove otherwise? No!
4. I agree with Leo- this is more mysticism!
5. If a bus hit you head on, and it's the mind that creates that reality, thus you should be able to manipulate reality matter itself.

1. In Non-dualism there isnt a God there is just oneness.
2. So you believe in something which cant be proven. Isnt that mysticism?
3. Excactly, if you dont know what is truth then why are you asserting that non-dualism is wrong and your world view is right?
4. May I point out once again that non-dualism is a philosophy not mysticism. Both Quantum Mechanics and Buddhism say the same thing.

5
When you are born you have little information on the universe so it behaves as a probabiity. As you live your life you gain more and more information on the universe reducing whats left behaving as a probability. Therefore the mind does have influence on the universe. Through its ability to perceive and acquire information it determines what parts of the universe are certain and what parts are left behaving as a probability.

This brings us to how perceptions can alter reality. If all you perceive when you look out your eyes is the negative then you will reduce the probability one way but if all you perceive is the positive it will reduce in another. A perfect example is the placebo effect or having faith in your follow a religion. Another example which anybody successful in sales will have come across is if you expect to do well you do.






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