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#166    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:13 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 02 January 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

His character is portrayed in the bible.  There is even a verse in the bible that says most people thought "he is raving mad and hath a devil, why ye hear him?"
Okay, you aren't getting it so let me elaborate just a bit for example:
Jesus went into the wilderness.  He was there forty days and forty nights.  He was very hungry.  When he was tempted to turn rocks into bread, he didn't do it.
There is a miracle told by his followers that he turned water into wine at a party when the guests ran out.  That is a flat out lie!  Oh, no it's not, the faithful say, the Bible doesn't lie.  Well, I know it is a lie, because I know his character.  He wouldn't attempt to turn rocks into bread when he was starving...why on gods grey earth would he attempt to turn water into wine at a party?  He wouldn't.
Okay a, more to the point, example.  He spent three years talking about forgiveness and how the church was run by a bunch of hypocrits (which is why they killed him) He knew that what he was doing was going to result in his being crucified, he knew this because he knew the bunch of hypocrits he was talking about and he knew they would plot against him to keep their own power...and on the cross...he forgave them...so why on god's grey earth do you think he would speak about getting revenge on them?  It is because of his character.  Honest men are honest.   Liars tell lies.  Something you can count on from a person because of their character.

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#167    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 02 January 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

I thought Jesus Christ was the son of man, or was he the only begotten Son of God?  And if he is "god" in human form who is he talking to when he prayed?  Also, why did "God in human form" need to be challenged by the devil when we went into the desert?  I would think the creator of the world be beyond that.
This goes hand in hand with what I have been saying.  Did Jesus ever say he was the son of God?  No.  In fact, he repeatedly refered to himself as the son of Man.  But the church turns his words the way they want...to perpetuate the myth.  Because, without the myth...their faith is dead.  Again, I don't have any problem with anyone believing that...most do...I am just one who has to 'see' the truth in it all...and truth is logical.

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#168    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Okay, you aren't getting it so let me elaborate just a bit for example:
Jesus went into the wilderness.  He was there forty days and forty nights.  He was very hungry.  When he was tempted to turn rocks into bread, he didn't do it.
There is a miracle told by his followers that he turned water into wine at a party when the guests ran out.  That is a flat out lie!  Oh, no it's not, the faithful say, the Bible doesn't lie.  Well, I know it is a lie, because I know his character.  He wouldn't attempt to turn rocks into bread when he was starving...why on gods grey earth would he attempt to turn water into wine at a party?  He wouldn't.
Okay a, more to the point, example.  He spent three years talking about forgiveness and how the church was run by a bunch of hypocrits (which is why they killed him) He knew that what he was doing was going to result in his being crucified, he knew this because he knew the bunch of hypocrits he was talking about and he knew they would plot against him to keep their own power...and on the cross...he forgave them...so why on god's grey earth do you think he would speak about getting revenge on them?  It is because of his character.  Honest men are honest.   Liars tell lies.  Something you can count on from a person because of their character.

What I find funny is how he says to love your enemy, but condemns satan (which means the enemy) and all his angels (more enemies) to eternal torment in the lake of fire.  He has got to be the biggest hypocrite to have ever lived.

Edited by HavocWing, 02 January 2013 - 04:25 AM.

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#169    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:26 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 02 January 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

What I find funny is how he says to love your enemy, but condemns satan (which means the enemy) and all his angels (more enemies) to eternal torment in the lake of fire.
Jesus never condemed anyone to anything.  You like to quote scripture...show me where he did what you just said. As a matter of fact, the character of Jesus again comes into play (as it always does) when he told the whore, Where have all your accusers gone?  Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more.

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#170    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:34 AM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Jesus never condemed anyone to anything.  You like to quote scripture...show me where he did what you just said. As a matter of fact, the character of Jesus again comes into play (as it always does) when he told the whore, Where have all your accusers gone?  Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more.

http://bible.cc/revelation/20-10.htm

Follow the links.

And I.M.O. he had the hots for mary, that is why he "spared" her.  Has to go with the process of sexual selection, but that is not on topic, then again this hasn't been on topic for a while.

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#171    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:42 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 02 January 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

http://bible.cc/revelation/20-10.htm

Follow the links.

And I.M.O. he had the hots for mary, that is why he "spared" her.  Has to go with the process of sexual selection, but that is not on topic, then again this hasn't been on topic for a while.
Revelations was written by an anonymous author and all of it came out of his own mind.  There is nothing in Revelations that reflects anything that Jesus did or said in the real world.
But...I can see by your sig link that you do have a rather perverse view of the beliefs of others and so, I bid you good day.

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#172    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:45 AM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Revelations was written by an anonymous author and all of it came out of his own mind.  There is nothing in Revelations that reflects anything that Jesus did or said in the real world.
But...I can see by your sig link that you do have a rather perverse view of the beliefs of others and so, I bid you good day.

Then it is all invalid.

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#173    Jinxdom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:47 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 02 January 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

What I find funny is how he says to love your enemy, but condemns satan (which means the enemy) and all his angels (more enemies) to eternal torment in the lake of fire.  He has got to be the biggest hypocrite to have ever lived.

Condemning somebody is what you do to people who break the law, criminal not enemy. Which is why judge and jury are supposed to get changed if they know anybody involved :)  Since Jesus has that whole love everybody thing going on screams impartial judge more then spiteful enemy. This also explains some of his more violent tendencies that may happen in revelations.


#174    Paranoid Android

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 02 January 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

I thought Jesus Christ was the son of man, or was he the only begotten Son of God?  And if he is "god" in human form who is he talking to when he prayed?  Also, why did "God in human form" need to be challenged by the devil when we went into the desert?  I would think the creator of the world be beyond that.
1 - in Christian theology Jesus is both the son of man and the son of God, while at the same time being God Himself.  Not easy to wrap our heads around that one (even for Christians, I don't certainly claim to "get" it all).

2 - Jesus was praying to the Father.  Again this is the whole Trinity thing.  Not easily explained in human terms, it just is what it is.

3 - Jesus' temptation in the desert was a symbolic act.  Jesus went out into the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, tempted by Satan.  Sound familiar to an Old Testament story?  Go back to the Exodus in Egypt, where the Israelites faltered and sinned, and as a result were condemned to wander the desert for 40 years.  Jesus re-enacts the Exodus by wandering the desert for 40 days and nights, but where Israel failed and faltered, Jesus remained true to God.  He was, in short, representing a faithful Israel, the True Israel.  He did what Israel could not do - avoid the temptation of Satan.  In short, that was the purpose of the temptation in the desert.

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#175    Paranoid Android

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:58 AM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Okay, you aren't getting it so let me elaborate just a bit for example:
Jesus went into the wilderness.  He was there forty days and forty nights.  He was very hungry.  When he was tempted to turn rocks into bread, he didn't do it.
There is a miracle told by his followers that he turned water into wine at a party when the guests ran out.  That is a flat out lie!  Oh, no it's not, the faithful say, the Bible doesn't lie.  Well, I know it is a lie, because I know his character.  He wouldn't attempt to turn rocks into bread when he was starving...why on gods grey earth would he attempt to turn water into wine at a party?  He wouldn't.
As I mentioned above to Lava Lady, the temptation in the wilderness was Jesus' way to let people know that he was the true representation of Israel, by not giving into the temptation of Satan.  When Jesus was at the wedding and they ran out of wine, he wasn't giving in to Satan, therefore it is entirely within Jesus' character to do as he did.

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

This goes hand in hand with what I have been saying.  Did Jesus ever say he was the son of God?  No.  In fact, he repeatedly refered to himself as the son of Man.  But the church turns his words the way they want...to perpetuate the myth.  Because, without the myth...their faith is dead.  Again, I don't have any problem with anyone believing that...most do...I am just one who has to 'see' the truth in it all...and truth is logical.
Jesus never says he is NOT the son of God.  Even when many people refer to him as the son of God, he never denies it.  Demons call him the son of God, angels call him the son of God, his followers call him the son of God.  Not once does he say "no, that is not correct".


View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Jesus never condemed anyone to anything.  You like to quote scripture...show me where he did what you just said. As a matter of fact, the character of Jesus again comes into play (as it always does) when he told the whore, Where have all your accusers gone?  Neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more.
Jesus speaking:  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41).  Albeit this is in the context of a parable, and therefore may not be the actual way of things, but he does say it.  I don't personally believe this alone is enough to warrant an entire doctrine on the existence of the afterlife, but it does acknowledge a fate for the devil and his angels and backs up other New Testament passages which attest the fate of Satan.


View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Revelations was written by an anonymous author and all of it came out of his own mind.  There is nothing in Revelations that reflects anything that Jesus did or said in the real world.
But...I can see by your sig link that you do have a rather perverse view of the beliefs of others and so, I bid you good day.
If you wish to go down that road, all four canonical gospels are also anonymous.  2nd Century tradition attributes them to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but that is just tradition.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 02 January 2013 - 07:00 AM.

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#176    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:31 AM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'.  Mankind is different.  We exhibit an awareness of self.  That self realizes itself mostly as Ego.  As such, the 'gods' of prophets, ancient and dead, such as Moses, Abraham and Mohammed gave their 'god' Human Like qualities...anger, jealousy, etc.
God was invented by the mind of man and  is not logical.
That being said...I have no qualms whatsoever with those who strongly believe in God...even those who do have qualms with those who do not.
IF god was invented by the mind of man, then god would be logical, because the human mind is logical.
In every religion one can see the logic of mankind mirrored in its theologies laws etc. Of course if the mind of man is similar to the mind of god in function, eg self aware sapient and capapble of logic, then gods laws would be very similar to logical human laws And, as it happens, they almost always are.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

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#177    Rlyeh

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Okay, you aren't getting it so let me elaborate just a bit for example:
Jesus went into the wilderness.  He was there forty days and forty nights.  He was very hungry.  When he was tempted to turn rocks into bread, he didn't do it.
There is a miracle told by his followers that he turned water into wine at a party when the guests ran out.  That is a flat out lie!  Oh, no it's not, the faithful say, the Bible doesn't lie.  Well, I know it is a lie, because I know his character.  He wouldn't attempt to turn rocks into bread when he was starving...why on gods grey earth would he attempt to turn water into wine at a party?  He wouldn't.
If that is a lie, why not just pass it all off as a lie? You're cherry picking.


#178    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 02 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

If that is a lie, why not just pass it all off as a lie? You're cherry picking.
I'm not 'cherry picking' anything...just using examples to explain the character of Jesus.

Quote

If you wish to go down that road, all four canonical gospels are also anonymous.  2nd Century tradition attributes them to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but that is just tradition.
This is the first time I have ever heard that!  But it doesn't matter.  If you know the character of the man, then you can distinguish between things that were made up about him (walking on the water, etc.).
But, you aren't going there and that's okay.  I tend to view Jesus' life as 'real'.  He was a 'real' carpenter, because his father was and that's the way it went back then.  But, there were all those 'stories' about his birth he heard bits and pieces of while growing up.  At one point he just cannot continue being a carpenter...the pull of 'something else' (you call it Satan) made him just leave everything and everybody and walk off into the wild.  I don't think for a minute he was thinking about, Well, I'll stay out here 40 days and that will symoblize for the Jews their wanderings.  He went into the wild for the same reasons John went into the wild.  And he also probably ate berries and locust he could find.  And he drank water, there is water in the wild you know.  Things like that.  Reality happened back then just as it does today and in the moment there is nothing miraculous or supernatural about any of it...that is all attributed later by people who could not grasp the reality of the situation as it was happening.

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#179    GreenmansGod

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:27 PM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

Okay, you aren't getting it so let me elaborate just a bit for example:
Jesus went into the wilderness.  He was there forty days and forty nights.  He was very hungry.  When he was tempted to turn rocks into bread, he didn't do it.
There is a miracle told by his followers that he turned water into wine at a party when the guests ran out.  That is a flat out lie! Oh, no it's not, the faithful say, the Bible doesn't lie.  Well, I know it is a lie, because I know his character. He wouldn't attempt to turn rocks into bread when he was starving...why on gods grey earth would he attempt to turn water into wine at a party?  He wouldn't.
Okay a, more to the point, example.  He spent three years talking about forgiveness and how the church was run by a bunch of hypocrits (which is why they killed him) He knew that what he was doing was going to result in his being crucified, he knew this because he knew the bunch of hypocrits he was talking about and he knew they would plot against him to keep their own power...and on the cross...he forgave them...so why on god's grey earth do you think he would speak about getting revenge on them?  It is because of his character.  Honest men are honest.   Liars tell lies.  Something you can count on from a person because of their character.

So the people who wrote the Bible are liars. Think about it. That means it all might be a lie. Maybe there was no Jesus at all.

People drank a lot of wine back then because sanitation was not the best and water, as in the third world today,has bugs that can make you sick.

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#180    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:11 PM

View Postblind pew, on 30 December 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

Then I shall quote another person "It has served us well, this myth of Christ." Pope Leo X.


Interesting you should in fact raise this little issue...........So many will claim he didn't say it, so many will say he did say it

What some may not know  ( and I am just throwing this out here ) is that the word - MYTH  did not always mean fictional   The term myth meant - stories told by word of mouth, but not fictional in that sense ..The Greeks invented that term ( I think ) because I once read - .“Myth” comes from the Greek word “mythos” which means “word of mouth”.   Pope Leo X was very loyal to the Greeks and knew their language well

Stories passed on through time, even by anonymous people  ( some written down ) were called myths, but again in the context that those stories were true..peoples experiences and so forth

So, if Pope Leo did say - "It has served us well, this myth of Christ " ( and I have a feeling he may well have done ) .. that could be what he meant.. Not that he felt the stories were works of fiction, but the stories of Christ were true, but passed on by various people through word of mouth, then once written down, the authors were unknown

What could have happened  ( and this is just another guess from me ) ..Tales passed on by so many others over time about Christ, that once someone wrote it down, they couldn't take credit for a tale that they knew was passed on by word of mouth, so they remained anonymous ..I could be wrong about that, but one thing I am not wrong on is - The term myth ( back then ) didn't mean work of  fiction

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 January 2013 - 05:22 PM.

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