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Pontii Pilatus and Judas Venerated?


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#1    Dying Seraph

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:45 PM

The question I have to present is simple enough. However admittedly, I suspect it may reside more in the line of faith then by the actual evidence to go by but feel it compelling nonetheless.

If Jesus is "Lord and Savior," If God works through people/nations etc., then shouldn't more religious individuals owe more credit to Pilate? If God indeed has everything planned out, wouldn't Pilate have been an instrument of God? By proxy wouldn't that make Pilate a hero and as the Coptics believe a "saint" for the death of Christ and what would ensue? And by the same token shouldn't Judas be venerated as a hero as well for "handing over" Jesus (as that appears to be the original connotation before traitor and betrayal came to play).

Some of the gospels more then others portray Jesus as knowing everything that will transpire. But if God indeed had everything planned out...whether Jesus knew or not, if Jesus was to die for the sins of man, why aren't the individuals who set this in motion being seen as heroes? Did they not set Jesus free? Did they not save you "believers" by sacrificing your Messiah?

Edited by Dying Seraph, 27 September 2012 - 08:47 PM.

"The angel of self-deceit is camped in the souls of the "Righteous"--The eternal flame of power through joy dwellith within the flesh of the Satanist!"--Anton Szandor LaVey

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#2    Bling

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:47 PM

Pilate was a puppet of god I guess.....not that I believe in these stories anymore, but I remember them.


#3    Dying Seraph

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:58 PM

Greetings Bling,
Hence my point. If Pilate was God's puppet and was merely acting on Gods divine plan, why is Pilate seen villainized as is Judas? Didn't Pilate and Judas set Jesus free to save all these believers?

SINcerely,
:devil:

"The angel of self-deceit is camped in the souls of the "Righteous"--The eternal flame of power through joy dwellith within the flesh of the Satanist!"--Anton Szandor LaVey

"Tis' true my form is something odd but blaming me is blaming God. Could I create myself anew, I would not fail in pleasing you. If I could reach from pole to pole or grasp the ocean with a span, I would be measured by the soul. The mind's the standard of the man."--Isaac Watts

#4    Bling

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostDying Seraph, on 27 September 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Greetings Bling,
Hence my point. If Pilate was God's puppet and was merely acting on Gods divine plan, why is Pilate seen villainized as is Judas? Didn't Pilate and Judas set Jesus free to save all these believers?

SINcerely,
:devil:

Because believers believe that anyone who speaks bad of jesus is evil....let alone those who betray him in a more practical sense.
:devil: right back at ya!


#5    libstaK

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:02 PM

View PostDying Seraph, on 27 September 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Greetings Bling,
Hence my point. If Pilate was God's puppet and was merely acting on Gods divine plan, why is Pilate seen villainized as is Judas? Didn't Pilate and Judas set Jesus free to save all these believers?

SINcerely,
:devil:
Pontius Pilate and Judas, after Jesus can be seen to have made the greatest sacrifice for mankind - making of themselves the villians, you make a good point it has been discussed in my circles before and agreed that should not be villified.

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#6    Bling

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:11 PM

So...Judas and Pilate were innocent victims in god's plan or did they believe jesus really was what he claimed to be, so helped him along to do his job? The bible says they were used by satan to betray jesus, so who orchestrated it, god or satan? Who's the hero?  although I don't believe the bible to be true  <- this bit's small because I've said it so many times but didn't not want to say it....if you know what I mean?!


#7    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:22 PM

Pilate actually wanted to free Jesus, but was following the pressure from the locals.
Judas I actually do feel sorry for, as he was doing exactly what God needed of him.


#8    Dr. D

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostDying Seraph, on 27 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

The question I have to present is simple enough. However admittedly, I suspect it may reside more in the line of faith then by the actual evidence to go by but feel it compelling nonetheless.

If Jesus is "Lord and Savior," If God works through people/nations etc., then shouldn't more religious individuals owe more credit to Pilate? If God indeed has everything planned out, wouldn't Pilate have been an instrument of God? By proxy wouldn't that make Pilate a hero and as the Coptics believe a "saint" for the death of Christ and what would ensue? And by the same token shouldn't Judas be venerated as a hero as well for "handing over" Jesus (as that appears to be the original connotation before traitor and betrayal came to play).

Some of the gospels more then others portray Jesus as knowing everything that will transpire. But if God indeed had everything planned out...whether Jesus knew or not, if Jesus was to die for the sins of man, why aren't the individuals who set this in motion being seen as heroes? Did they not set Jesus free? Did they not save you "believers" by sacrificing your Messiah?

The Gospel of Judas makes that exact claim.


#9    Mr Walker

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 12:19 AM

It is impossible for god to know the future absolutely because it doesnt even exist yet, in actuality or in the minds of men and ther is no fixed or one future TO know

. However, certainly I agree with the point that both these people contributed to christianity.  I 've never thought much about pilate. Basically he was just doing his job, but certainly it has seemed strange to me   that judas was villified. He was obviously guilt ridden and hanged himself, but without him christianity would never have occured. Perhaps he can be judged on his heart and actions, apart from the consequences of them. Ie the reasons WHY he betrayed jesus speak to the nature of the man. But christ forgave him. It seems odd that others villify him, but that also  speaks to the hearts and minds of those who do.

Ps if people were/are  mere instruments of god or acting in a divinely predestined way, then they cant be either critcised or praised for their actions. They are neither villians nor heroes, but mere agents, who are not responsible for anything they do.

Edited by Mr Walker, 28 September 2012 - 12:26 AM.

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#10    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 01:04 AM

View PostDying Seraph, on 27 September 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

The question I have to present is simple enough. However admittedly, I suspect it may reside more in the line of faith then by the actual evidence to go by but feel it compelling nonetheless.

If Jesus is "Lord and Savior," If God works through people/nations etc., then shouldn't more religious individuals owe more credit to Pilate? If God indeed has everything planned out, wouldn't Pilate have been an instrument of God? By proxy wouldn't that make Pilate a hero and as the Coptics believe a "saint" for the death of Christ and what would ensue? And by the same token shouldn't Judas be venerated as a hero as well for "handing over" Jesus (as that appears to be the original connotation before traitor and betrayal came to play).

Some of the gospels more then others portray Jesus as knowing everything that will transpire. But if God indeed had everything planned out...whether Jesus knew or not, if Jesus was to die for the sins of man, why aren't the individuals who set this in motion being seen as heroes? Did they not set Jesus free? Did they not save you "believers" by sacrificing your Messiah?

The Coptic Church does not venerate Pilate at all, it is rather the Abyssinian (Ethiopian) Church which canonized him; I think he is commemorated on June 25. The reason for the canonization has nothing to do with the role he played in the crucifixion of Jesus, rather he is believed to have converted to Christianity and was subsequently martyred. This belief is derived from the 4th century apocryphal gospel of Nicodemus: Acta Pilati and Epistola Pilati
http://www.earlychri...lnicodemus.html

Pilate's wife, Claudia Procula, is believed to have testified to the Messiahship of Jesus by Orthodox churches, and is commemorated on October 27 in the Greek Synaxarion. For both, veneration is based on conversion and not for being agents or instruments of God.


#11    Ninhursag

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:21 AM

I Agree .. I Don't See Judas As A Bad Guy At All .. At The End Of The Day, Jesus Himself Told Him He Would Betray Him, So Judas Did Only And Exactly What Was Asked Of Him ..

I Think Christians Should Stop Villifying Him ..

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#12    The Gremlin

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 10:47 AM

Do they vilify Judas?

How?

I agree with the earlier point that although he was part of God's plan etc, his motives perhaps reveal his deficient character.
Unless he was instructed by Jesus that is, pulled aside and told to snitch.

Either way, im not sure he minds.

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#13    Bling

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 28 September 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

It is impossible for god to know the future absolutely because it doesnt even exist yet, in actuality or in the minds of men and ther is no fixed or one future TO know

The bible says that god does know the future - the beginning and the end. Alpha and Omega.


#14    Dying Seraph

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostBling, on 27 September 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Because believers believe that anyone who speaks bad of jesus is evil....let alone those who betray him in a more practical sense.
:devil: right back at ya!
Greetings Bling,
There is an issue with this "betrayal." Mark the first of the Synoptics makes no mention of intention as to why Judas "hands over Jesus." In Mark at elast IMO there is no inclination of "betrayal" at all. I've read in studies that Judas may have intended to introduce Jesus to the local priests and something may have went drastically wrong. Although speculation there is not much to go on other than Judas "handing over" Jesus. Again a difference then the later gospels implying betrayal.

As far as my :devil: , no disrespect is intended, consider it my warmest wishes only to a sinfully delightul degree. :)

View PostlibstaK, on 27 September 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Pontius Pilate and Judas, after Jesus can be seen to have made the greatest sacrifice for mankind - making of themselves the villians, you make a good point it has been discussed in my circles before and agreed that should not be villified.
Greetings libstaK,
It's something that has long been puzzling. If Jesus is set free and as many believe his death fulfills the tole or pays for all sinners...then how can either Pilate or Judas not be seen in at least a more sympathetic light by many? If indeed everything is part of God's divine plan that is. Of course each gospel has their own intentions for the time period of the writings to consider and that may certainly be why alterations or additions were made in regards to the temperaments or personalities of Pilate and Judas. But it's long baffled me particularly those quick to embrace the Gospel of Luke where the "devil" works through Judas and in John where by this time Judas is in league with the devil himself.


View PostBling, on 27 September 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

So...Judas and Pilate were innocent victims in god's plan or did they believe jesus really was what he claimed to be, so helped him along to do his job? The bible says they were used by satan to betray jesus, so who orchestrated it, god or satan? Who's the hero?  although I don't believe the bible to be true  <- this bit's small because I've said it so many times but didn't not want to say it....if you know what I mean?!
Depends on which particular gospel one embraces I suppose. :) The earliest Mark, doesn't give us too much to work with and perhaps for the better IMO. In John it appears very clear that Jesus is in control of everything. That he knows when he's going to die, that he knows each and everyone he appointed around him even though one is a devil. That's why I anticipate differing degrees of answers pending on which gospels one accept or favor more. John for some reason seems to be the most appealing. Luke written much after Mark and Matthew give the implication that the devil is working through Judas.


View PostWearer of Hats, on 27 September 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Pilate actually wanted to free Jesus, but was following the pressure from the locals.
Judas I actually do feel sorry for, as he was doing exactly what God needed of him.
Greetings Wearer of Hats,
That's pending on which gospel. Some portray Pilate as sympathetic to Jesus, others, as somewhat an imbecile and aloof, others indifferent to Jews and so forth. But you are certainly correct even turning his offer to the audience as to who he should set free "Jesus or Barrabus?" and by doing so putting the blame back on the Jews and as a gospel portrays out of symbolism Pilate washes his hands to free himself of guilt.

Judas and Pilate have long been some of my favorite figures of the Bible. And thus by the same token an amount of sympathy to go with them.

View PostDr. D, on 27 September 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

The Gospel of Judas makes that exact claim.
Greetings Dr. D,
Well the Gospel of Judas makes a lot of claims that just being one of em to a degree. The Gospel According to Judas was attempting to answer many things. One was the question of Christians sacrificing themselves willingly. The Gospel of Judas questions fellow Christians that participate in such an act and does nothing short of condemn the act of "self sacrifice" for God. Or giving themselves up to the Lord.
But even in the Gospel According to Judas, even here Judas isn'texactly portrayed in the greatest of lights. If you've read it bear in mind Judas would exceed em all and go to a different realm than the others and what appears to be of a material realm IMO. When I get the chance to find the passages later I'll provide just to help convey what I mean.

All that said...interestingly enough after reading Judas and working backwards did things start to make more sense to me then reading by the earliest accounts and going up to Judas :lol: Quite odd. :wacko:

SINcerely,
:devil:

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#15    Bling

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostDying Seraph, on 28 September 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Greetings Bling,
As far as my :devil: , no disrespect is intended, consider it my warmest wishes only to a sinfully delightul degree. :)

I didn't take it the wrong way, I simply returned it back to you, from me :devil: :yes:





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