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'Culture war' more than gun rights

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#16    Kowalski

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 04 May 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I can't understand why they resist so virulently stricter background checks.
Yes the Second Amendment says "shall not restrict", but you have to balance rights from one area against rights from another - the right to life and liberty being on the first line of the Consitution IIRC (I'm an Aussie so please don't shoot me if I'm wrong).
You want people to be able to buy bazookas? Fine. Just accept that there's going to be a 12 month waiting list with all sort of checks.
See, no restriction on what you can buy, just a delay on when you can get it. Everyone wins in the end, noones life is risked by something easily prevented and everyone who wants a kalashnikov can have one.

We already have those types of laws! Enforce the ones on the books!
More background checks wouldn't have prevented what happened at Newtown. We already have good gun control laws in place. Enforce these!


#17    Uncle Sam

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:58 AM

Doesn't matter if gun manufactures or gun owners, it is the basic thought that our 2nd amendment is under attack by Liberals who uses a front of death and misery to propose their agenda upon the victims, basically telling them what to say and what to do to make them feel safe. Like Benjamin Franklin once said, "Who shall give up their liberty for small safety devices deserve neither safety or liberty."

A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. - Albert Einstein

#18    Arbenol

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:40 AM

He's right. It's all about culture. Many countries have high rates of gun ownership without the problems that America has. So, why is America so different?

The answer's clearly complex and is not something so simple as gun ownership. Making it more difficult for people to get their hands on firearms will likely make very little difference.

Americans quite rightly love their constitution. But they've lost sight of the historical context in which it was first drafted. The world changes, and the rights to bear arms were historically important to protect it's civilians from tyranny - a real prospect at that time. But that is hardly the case now. Do Americans think that they're going to need their guns to defend their homes from invading North Koreans?

The vast majority of American gun owners are, I'm sure, totally responsible. But it's not them that cause the issues.

Americans need to figure out why they kill each other at triple the rate of comparative nations. I can't see that gun control measures would do much about that.


#19    Arbenol

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:45 AM

View PostUncle Sam, on 05 May 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Like Benjamin Franklin once said, "Who shall give up their liberty for small safety devices deserve neither safety or liberty."

That's a good quote. Makes a lot of sense. Isn't it ironic then, that in the pursuit of "freedom" so many Americans are willing to compromise on it?

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#20    supervike

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:45 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 05 May 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Americans quite rightly love their constitution. But they've lost sight of the historical context in which it was first drafted. The world changes, and the rights to bear arms were historically important to protect it's civilians from tyranny - a real prospect at that time. But that is hardly the case now. Do Americans think that they're going to need their guns to defend their homes from invading North Koreans?



No, not foreign invaders.  Americans think they will need their guns to defend their own homes from an overreaching Federal Government.

That's the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.


#21    Arbenol

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:46 AM

View Postsupervike, on 05 May 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

No, not foreign invaders.  Americans think they will need their guns to defend their own homes from an overreaching Federal Government.

That's the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

I know. I understand that. I was being a little facetious.


#22    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

View Postsupervike, on 05 May 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

No, not foreign invaders.  Americans think they will need their guns to defend their own homes from an overreaching Federal Government.

That's the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

I tend to doubt that it is the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. The purpose was not having a standing army and being able to call people to arms in case of invasion or insurrection. That one or two of the founding fathers were of another opinion does not change that.

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#23    green_dude777

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:37 AM

I don't know, but wasn't there an overreaching British monarchy around the time we drafted the bill of rights?


#24    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:51 AM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 05 May 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I don't know, but wasn't there an overreaching British monarchy around the time we drafted the bill of rights?

No, because, believe it or not, at that time the British already had their Bill of Rights since 1215 AD, just not for the colonies.

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#25    Silver Surfer

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:13 AM

View PostBig Jim, on 04 May 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

I know very little about the NRA.  I've never been a member and I can neither support or dispute them without knowing, in detail, what their position is.  Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough.  I was not writing in support of the NRA or any group.  I was writing in support of our rights as Americans as delineated in the Constitution.  My thoughts on the subject are my own, neither sanctioned or informed by the NRA or anyone else.  As far as I'm concerned the NRA can support anything it wants to.  And so can I.  As Patrick Henry so famously said "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."  Today you and I have both exercised the right to free speech, but only one of us has defended it.  Enjoy.

If one law says you can have free speech and the other one says you can have guns that means what?... both are right? You are relating two very very different things... There is freedom of speech and then there is mass making violent killing machines and making them readily at hand to be in the hands of children and unstable people... Yea i know the owner should be more careful... some parents are idiots... etc etc.. blah.. blah.. blah...  the fact is if the gun isn't there it remove the possibly however remote of 20 children being shot... or a 4 year old kid shooting his sister and now having to grow up with that burden on him. No one was saying you couldn't speak your mind.. but equally other people can speak their mind... and relating freedom of speech to gun ownership is likening ice cream to sharp objects. Enjoy.


#26    Yes_Man

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:25 AM

View Postsupervike, on 05 May 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

No, not foreign invaders.  Americans think they will need their guns to defend their own homes from an overreaching Federal Government.

That's the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.
Funny isn't it? Americans calling their land home even though it was not theirs to begin with, it was stolen and conquered, after the war of Independence the Americans should have gave half of America back to the natives and areas that are or were controlled by the Americans and the Europeans.


#27    Kowalski

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:17 PM

View PostUncle Sam, on 05 May 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Doesn't matter if gun manufactures or gun owners, it is the basic thought that our 2nd amendment is under attack by Liberals who uses a front of death and misery to propose their agenda upon the victims, basically telling them what to say and what to do to make them feel safe. Like Benjamin Franklin once said, "Who shall give up their liberty for small safety devices deserve neither safety or liberty."

Benjamin Franklin got it right! That statement is very true.
Their were many reasons the Founding Fathers put the Second Amendment in the Constitution. One main thing was they believed all men had certain rights, and one of these was the right to defend your home and family from a tyrannical government, invasion, or just plain self defense.


#28    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:17 PM

Quote

Funny isn't it? Americans calling their land home even though it was not theirs to begin with, it was stolen and conquered, after the war of Independence the Americans should have gave half of America back to the natives and areas that are or were controlled by the Americans and the Europeans.

Yawn - right after you give Germany ALL of its land back, Britain back to the Celts, etc... history is dead and done. We're living in the present, not the past. ;)


#29    Kowalski

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostSilver Surfer, on 05 May 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

There is freedom of speech and then there is mass making violent killing machines and making them readily at hand to be in the hands of children and unstable people...

We already HAVE laws that keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and children....
Just goes to show you most anti-gunners have NO IDEA what gun laws we already have on the books.


#30    MissMelsWell

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostKowalski, on 05 May 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

We already HAVE laws that keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and children....
Just goes to show you most anti-gunners have NO IDEA what gun laws we already have on the books.

Unfortunately, we don't--or not in a way that makes any sense. Did you know the guy who killed five people at the Cafe Racer coffee shop (then himself) in Seattle last fall had a LONG history mental illness? Documented with 72 hour observational holdings and medications for his issue, but he was never committed. All his guns were all legally owned an registered to him. He also had several arrests (but no convictions) for violence. His family tried their hardest to have his guns taken away from him. They tried so hard that when interviewed after the tragedy, all they could say was "We aren't suprised this happened. We tried to get his firearms taken away and get him commited to a facility for his mental illness but the current laws wouldn't allow it. All we could do was sit back and wait for something like this to happen"  That's pretty horrible.  I know people who shouldn't own guns due to their mental condition or chemical dependancies, I'm just waiting for another tragedy.There's nothing anyone can do about it under the current laws.

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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin





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