2211 replies to this topic

[Sakari]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Yes, that would be a good idea for a 30 minute ritual but what if it extends to many days?




I don't mean to be rude but I don't think that counts as a proof that if you claim that you are a man of your word then everyone should believe whatever you claim.




Okay this one, I think this can be a proof. Seems reasonable if someone other than you tries that and it does not work for him either and he supports your claim that way but then to eliminate error (and partisanship and bias) I think a minimum number of people practicing the ritual individually should be set for that first.




I'm not the one who is making claims of summoning demons because I keep myslef miles away from dark arts so let us wait for someone else to answer that.





The problem is to prove that you practiced as said and to prove that the outcome is not being concealed. If you practice something as said then it is something not nothing. Yes, Nothing is when the demon does not appear even after practicing the said ritual. And when nothing appears then obviously you do not have a proof of that. But if something does appear how will you prove that you are not concealing that fact? Just because you say you are a man of you word someone else is supposed to believe that nothing happened?

I haven't read the complete thread yet but if others besides you in a certain number (that eliminates the possibility of prejudice and bias) can confirm the outcome of a certain ritual then it can be a valid proof that the ritual was succesful or not.

So I think you will first need to set some rules for that, ask for volunteers, and then proceed.

Sorry, you are not making the rules here, especially after a 2 year run.

What I can do for you, is you are more then welcome to call me, and talk to my wife about how pissed off she got a few times about this.I can possibly even get a webcam, and do some things on skype with you as my witness. Then I have you to back up your own questions about me.

I suggest you read the entire thread, and you will see what I would do if a " demon " or " ghost " appeared. I say it many times.


As for the last 2 years, you can believe it or not. I am not the one throwing out fantastic claims here am I?

Read the thread, then let me know what questions you have. I went through this all ready

Edited by Sakari, 05 October 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[XingWi]

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Sorry, you are not making the rules here, especially after a 2 year run.

Wow! That was a very rational response... that really shows how scientific you are in searching your truth and presenting the evidence.

I am not making these rules. Statisticians made them long time back, which have always been followed in every valid scientific research since then. The greater the sample size the lesser the chance of error. And beyond a certain number the chances of error become negligible. The more variable the individuals in a sample, the lesser the number required for that. After a 2 year run you should know this better, right?

2 year run or a 10 year run..... without a proper method of verifying your claims by others supporting them, this thread is nothing but a bunch of such unverifiable claims from either side.

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

What I can do for you, is you are more then welcome to call me, and talk to my wife about how pissed off she got a few times about this.I can possibly even get a webcam, and do some things on skype with you as my witness. Then I have you to back up your own questions about me.

Thanks for the offer but its not that I am asking you to convince me rather I am asking you to present your facts in a way they can be verified. Take your offer here for instance, I could be your friend appearing here not to agre with you only to later support your claims that I saw everything on skype so that the readers would be convinced after seeing that someone who was critical of your claims came later on your side. Another possibility... you could see an entity appear but deny on skype or whatever that you are seeing it. See... many possibilites, so no way of verifying the authenticity of any such claim.

Though the burden of proof lies on the side that is making the claims of summoning the demons, but since the possibility that these days any photographic evidence can be forged therefore if presented would not be accepted by skeptics, so in the context of this thread in particular the claims are equally made from either side of being a particular ritual efective or not and the best way to verify such claims is to get a certain number of people practice it before supporting either side. Without a certain minimum number of people supporting your claims or the claims of the other side, these are nothing but CLAIMS with (50-50) equal chances of being true or false.

I will read the entire thread and reply later.

Edited by XingWi, 05 October 2012 - 05:11 AM.

[Sakari]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Wow! That was a very rational response... that really shows how scientific you are in searching your truth and presenting the evidence.

I am not making these rules. Statisticians made them long time back, which have always been followed in every valid scientific research since then. The greater the sample size the lesser the chance of error. And beyond a certain number the chances of error become negligible. The more variable the individuals in a sample, the lesser the number required for that. After a 2 year run you should know this better, right?

2 year run or a 10 year run..... without a proper method of verifying your claims by others supporting them, this thread is nothing but a bunch of such unverifiable claims from either side.




Thanks for the offer but its not that I am asking you to convince me rather I am asking you to present your facts in a way they can be verified. Take your offer here for instance, I could be your friend appearing here not to agre with you only to later support your claims that I saw everything on skype so that the readers would be convinced after seeing that someone who was critical of your claims came later on your side. Another possibility... you could see an entity appear but deny on skype or whatever that you are seeing it. See... many possibilites, so no way of verifying the authenticity of any such claim.

Though the burden of proof lies on the side that is making the claims of summoning the demons, but since the possibility that these days any photographic evidence can be forged therefore if presented would not be accepted by skeptics, so in the context of this thread in particular the claims are equally made from either side of being a particular ritual efective or not and the best way to verify such claims is to get a certain number of people practice it before supporting either side. Without a certain minimum number of people supporting your claims or the claims of the other side, these are nothing but CLAIMS with (50-50) equal chances of being true or false.

I will read the entire thread and reply later.

I was being sarcastic on the making rules, to a point that is.

To bad you were not around 2 years ago when this started, pretty dead now, other then occasional " don't do it " posts.

I see where you are going with this, and it is not happening. You are finding a " scapegoat " for people, and it has all ready been tried in the thread.

You are the one asking, and making suggestions, and questions, so again.....Feel free to call me, skype, whatever....That goes for anyone who thinks " I am not really trying "...

Pretty simple really.....I am not someone who goes around making claims without a way to back them up, only way I can is to invite anyone questioning it to participate, or witness it, or get to know me other then on a forum.

You will see I have had people threaten to send me demons and such, I even gave out my GPS coordinates.....They are the same by the way fo anyone interested in making a voodoo doll, or summoning Satan to me.

Now, again, you should have shown up when this started, then I could have done what you asked. As of now, I can only offer what I have to you, or anyone that questions it.


And you do realise you want verification that summoning demons does not work correct?

[XingWi]

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

I see where you are going with this, and it is not happening. You are finding a " scapegoat " for people, and it has all ready been tried in the thread.

Oh dear! I don't even know you man. I am on neither side. Yes I do believe that demons exist because I have encountered them and I do believe that they can be summoned, but if someone comes here and makes claims that he can summon them I am not going to validate that claim without evidence because I have seen charlatans too... and neither am I going to validate your claim that the ritual was not successful, without evidence. I am just asking either side to present its facts in a way that can be verified.

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

You will see I have had people threaten to send me demons and such, I even gave out my GPS coordinates.....They are the same by the way fo anyone interested in making a voodoo doll, or summoning Satan to me.

Ask them to send a succubus if they can.

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

And you do realise you want verification that summoning demons does not work correct?

As I said before, I am not on either side. I said, from either side, the claims are unverifiable. thats all.

[Sakari]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Oh dear! I don't even know you man. I am on neither side. Yes I do believe that demons exist because I have encountered them and I do believe that they can be summoned, but if someone comes here and makes claims that he can summon them I am not going to validate that claim without evidence because I have seen charlatans too... and neither am I going to validate your claim that the ritual was not successful, without evidence. I am just asking either side to present its facts in a way that can be verified.





Ask them to send a succubus if they can.





As I said before, I am not on either side. I said, from either side, the claims are unverifiable. thats all.

Up there in the red....

If you believe they can, can you share how?

You also claim to have encountered one, care to share what happened to encounter one?

And there are no " sides " on this, it is not a football game. You either " believe ", or you know they are not real.

A succubus would be great, I have asked how to get one of those also

[Seeker79]

Got to give the winchesters a call, they can show you how.

[XingWi]

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

Up there in the red....

If you believe they can, can you share how?

You also claim to have encountered one, care to share what happened to encounter one?

I never summoned them so I am not the one claiming to know HOW to summon them. My beliefs that they exist and CAN be summoned are derived from holy scriptures which I chose to believe, which certainly cannot be a proof for skeptics who dont even believe that God exists and to those who claim that all holy scriptures were written by men to control the masses or whatever other reasons they quote.

Yes my belief that they can be summoned was strengthened when I witnessed some events personally like effects of black magic and levitating monks, but again these are my own experiences and I cannot convince a skeptic that I indeed experienced them and neither am I here to convince the skeptics that I did experience them. A person is entitled to believe whatever he chooses to believe without having to convince others why.

Nothing special happened before encountering them. I believe I'm sensitive that is all. But again if something did happen then sharing stories of what happened could not prove anything to anyone either. Yet, again I am not the one asking anyone to take my word for what I say because "I am a man of my word". If someone does not believe what I claim then I am okay with that too. It is entirely upto an individual what he chooses to believe.

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

And there are no " sides " on this, it is not a football game. You either " believe ", or you know they are not real.

Of course there are. When speaking of sides I meant those who come here to CLAIM to have summoned them and those who CLAIM that they have tried everything and nothing worked. These are the two groups here that are making claims in this thread, nothing of which has been presented in a manner so it can be verified.

What has this thread achieved except for documenting your claims that you tried this and that and it did not work everytime? How do we know that you tried and you are not concealing the outcome? How can you prove all this? How can the other person prove that the ritual does indeed work?

Yes, as I said before, the burden of proof lies on the one claiming to have summoned them, but what do you want him to do? Send you evidence as recorded video of his method and that it was succesful? How do you know if it wasn't forged when any such evidence can be forged these days?

But again you are the one creating this thread to prove or disprove something, right? If you are not seeking to prove or disprove something then why create such a thread in the first place and invest so much time in documenting nearly 100 pages? So in the context of this thread in particular all we are left with are two opposing sides claiming that a ritual is succesful or not. But again how are WE going to verify those claims?

Is the reader just supposed to sit here and take your word or the word of other person for it? My point is, this thread, even after so many pages, remains where it was on its first page. Believers are believers and skeptics are skeptics. And that is why I wrote before, that without proper evidence following the right methodology (a sceintific one) these are just a bunch of unverifiable claims from either side.

So if you are out to prove or disprove something to others then do it right, however if you want to believe something keeping your beliefs to yourself then it is entirely upto you and you are not required to explain how and why because you are responsible for your own beliefs.

Again no need to be offended... I am not finding a "scapegoat" for people here. Just expressing my view on this thats all.

Sakari, on 05 October 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

A succubus would be great, I have asked how to get one of those also

[XingWi]

Seeker79, on 05 October 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Got to give the winchesters a call, they can show you how.

Seeker does not believe that demons are real.. but he believes that the spirit of his oak tree is very REAL.

[Sakari]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

I never summoned them so I am not the one claiming to know HOW to summon them. My beliefs that they exist and CAN be summoned are derived from holy scriptures which I chose to believe, which certainly cannot be a proof for skeptics who dont even believe that God exists and to those who claim that all holy scriptures were written by men to control the masses or whatever other reasons they quote.

Yes my belief that they can be summoned was strengthened when I witnessed some events personally like effects of black magic and levitating monks, but again these are my own experiences and I cannot convince a skeptic that I indeed experienced them and neither am I here to convince the skeptics that I did experience them. A person is entitled to believe whatever he chooses to believe without having to convince others why.

Nothing special happened before encountering them. I believe I'm sensitive that is all. But again if something did happen then sharing stories of what happened could not prove anything to anyone either. Yet, again I am not the one asking anyone to take my word for what I say because "I am a man of my word". If someone does not believe what I claim then I am okay with that too. It is entirely upto an individual what he chooses to believe.




Of course there are. When speaking of sides I meant those who come here to CLAIM to have summoned them and those who CLAIM that they have tried everything and nothing worked. These are the two groups here that are making claims in this thread, nothing of which has been presented in a manner so it can be verified.

What has this thread achieved except for documenting your claims that you tried this and that and it did not work everytime? How do we know that you tried and you are not concealing the outcome? How can you prove all this? How can the other person prove that the ritual does indeed work?

Yes, as I said before, the burden of proof lies on the one claiming to have summoned them, but what do you want him to do? Send you evidence as recorded video of his method and that it was succesful? How do you know if it wasn't forged when any such evidence can be forged these days?

But again you are the one creating this thread to prove or disprove something, right? If you are not seeking to prove or disprove something then why create such a thread in the first place and invest so much time in documenting nearly 100 pages? So in the context of this thread in particular all we are left with are two opposing sides claiming that a ritual is succesful or not. But again how are WE going to verify those claims?

Is the reader just supposed to sit here and take your word or the word of other person for it? My point is, this thread, even after so many pages, remains where it was on its first page. Believers are believers and skeptics are skeptics. And that is why I wrote before, that without proper evidence following the right methodology (a sceintific one) these are just a bunch of unverifiable claims from either side.

So if you are out to prove or disprove something to others then do it right, however if you want to believe something keeping your beliefs to yourself then it is entirely upto you and you are not required to explain how and why because you are responsible for your own beliefs.

Again no need to be offended... I am not finding a "scapegoat" for people here. Just expressing my view on this thats all.

You still have not read the thread.....

And, I all ready explained and offered to you how I can " prove " I did these things. At least the past things, and I offered a way for you to have evidence on anything new.


Beating a dead horse now, one I beat 3 times in this thread all ready.

Edited by Sakari, 05 October 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Sakari]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Seeker does not believe that demons are real.. but he believes that the spirit of his oak tree is very REAL.

Seeker knows exactly what " demons " are...

[XingWi]

Just kidding seeker!

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever he chooses to believe without having to explain why and how. So relax, no need to explain why the spirit of your oak tree is real.

[Seeker79]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Seeker does not believe that demons are real.. but he believes that the spirit of his oak tree is very REAL.

The spirit is very real, but Weather it is entirely a product of my mind or a universal one that I am apart of is entirely unknowable. Spirits/souls just as our own personalities are all psyco/spiritual constructs.

Xingwi, I don't believe in seperation. I am a bit of solipsist that way. In my opinion Everything that happens to us is both inside and outside of us. Your "demons" are apart of you. Just as the oak tree is apart of me and I it. The difference being that the oak trees actually exists with billions of electrical connections and chemical reactions in this physical reality. Who are you to say that is not concious? Conciousness being our and its spirit.

The "demons" are real. People are just confused to what they actually are. As evident from Sakari's trials they do not have a physical existence. They are entirely a lower archetypical  construct, Jung would call it our shadow.  Your own ego is also a construct.

I have woken up with the sleep paralysis "demon" and it's claws locked around my legs. I could feel every scale. I reached down with my mind and took control over them and made them massage my feat. I went back to sleep chuckling at myself. That's just one story out of dozens.

I have performed the Mara meditation. It's the equivalent of decending into hell. I faced the hordes and mastered them. It all mind.

I have seen my own evidence that there are spirits I am unable to deni it. Certainly there will be those that disagree, but "demons" are entirely the visage of our lizard brain asserting itself upon the psyche. I have been there, done that, slam dunk, touch down game over. My shadow is dead, its been reintegrated into me, and I no longer have use of the construct. My mind has also woken up. I'm nearly constantly aware. When I sleep I dream grand scenarios with epic battles, I make love to goddesses, and I play with my kids. When I take the journey I learn more about myself and my relationship to the great spirit.

xingwi, you and people like you are the ones that give shadow power, your insistance on some sort of dogmatic ecology of angels and demons  keeps the idea alive that there is something out to get us. There is not. It's just the ape in us guessing the lion in the grass. We are hard wired for it. If we were not our species would never have evolved.

I work tirelessly with dozens of  people usually young at any given week that are being tortured by this. They don't need the religous pooring evil dogma down their throats. It quit literally makes me sick to my stomach when some young 18 year old girl comes to me convinced she is possessed. the story is always the same. I can tell you right now I have a better track record at exorcising demons than any priest.

Ok rambling now.... Sorry Sakari.

[Seeker79]

XingWi, on 05 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Just kidding seeker!

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever he chooses to believe without having to explain why and how. So relax, no need to explain why the spirit of your oak tree is real.

Oops already did kinda. But I will say that it is real for me. Intilectually I can accept the possibility that spirits that I interact with are all just constructs during altered states, but I would be lieing if I said that I believe that. I have two options 1: things are exactly as they apear to be. 2: I am a fringe person. A person that by sheer coincidence ( has witnessed completely uncanny sets of circumstances. With 7 billion people there is bound to be a few of us. Choice one seems more likely to me at this moment.

But with that I have fully explored spiritual evil, not with rituals or silly board games either, but with deep meditation, altered states and confronting the archetypes themselves. It dosnt exist the way the fear mongers preech. This I know.

Your english is better by the way.

Edited by Seeker79, 05 October 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Sakari]

Seeker79, on 05 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

The spirit is very real, but Weather it is entirely a product of my mind or a universal one that I am apart of is entirely unknowable. Spirits/souls just as our own personalities are all psyco/spiritual constructs.

Xingwi, I don't believe in seperation. I am a bit of solipsist that way. In my opinion Everything that happens to us is both inside and outside of us. Your "demons" are apart of you. Just as the oak tree is apart of me and I it. The difference being that the oak trees actually exists with billions of electrical connections and chemical reactions in this physical reality. Who are you to say that is not concious? Conciousness being our and its spirit.

The "demons" are real. People are just confused to what they actually are. As evident from Sakari's trials they do not have a physical existence. They are entirely a lower archetypical  construct, Jung would call it our shadow.  Your own ego is also a construct.

I have woken up with the sleep paralysis "demon" and it's claws locked around my legs. I could feel every scale. I reached down with my mind and took control over them and made them massage my feat. I went back to sleep chuckling at myself. That's just one story out of dozens.

I have performed the Mara meditation. It's the equivalent of decending into hell. I faced the hordes and mastered them. It all mind.

I have seen my own evidence that there are spirits I am unable to deni it. Certainly there will be those that disagree, but "demons" are entirely the visage of our lizard brain asserting itself upon the psyche. I have been there, done that, slam dunk, touch down game over. My shadow is dead, its been reintegrated into me, and I no longer have use of the construct. My mind has also woken up. I'm nearly constantly aware. When I sleep I dream grand scenarios with epic battles, I make love to goddesses, and I play with my kids. When I take the journey I learn more about myself and my relationship to the great spirit.

xingwi, you and people like you are the ones that give shadow power, your insistance on some sort of dogmatic ecology of angels and demons  keeps the idea alive that there is something out to get us. There is not. It's just the ape in us guessing the lion in the grass. We are hard wired for it. If we were not our species would never have evolved.

I work tirelessly with dozens of  people usually young at any given week that are being tortured by this. They don't need the religous pooring evil dogma down their throats. It quit literally makes me sick to my stomach when some young 18 year old girl comes to me convinced she is possessed. the story is always the same. I can tell you right now I have a better track record at exorcising demons than any priest.

Ok rambling now.... Sorry Sakari.

Don't be sorry, I love it, and agree with it !

And will never be able to say it better!

[Seeker79]

By the way if anyone happens across this thread, myself and a few others trouble shoot with people that might want to take the journey themselves. I have a tutorial here, and you can post questions and experiences... It's not debate thread though.

http://www.unexplain...pic=219629&st=0