99 replies to this topic

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

It's not really capitalism as it was just industrialization.  It was the means of production that was controlled by the state.  The wealthy were part of the Party or the ruling elite.  Capitalism is more in line with a freer market system.  In a free market system, the economy is driven by a well educated consumer, not by the state directing it.

It may not have been a free Market, but production of (for example) new designs of tanks or aircraft was done very much on the basis of each company putting forward their own competing designs, and them being selected after evaluation by the military- the competing designs of the Tiger, for instance, from Henschel and Porsche. This could be rather wasteful, with production effort being wasted on constructing several prototypes that no one then wanted, and was probably one big reason why they were out-produced by the U.S, which had a much more centrally controlled system; the Army came up with a design (e.g. the Sherman, crap as it was), and then dozens of firms constructed it. With aircraft it was a similar system to Germany, but after the favoured design was chosen many differnet firms were ordered by the Govt. to produce them, so that too was in effect pretty centrally controlled. Really an effective wartime economy can only be constructed by throwing the Free market out of the window (not to mention Democracy).

[RavenHawk]

questionmark, on 15 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

    cap·i·tal·ism
kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

Industrialism is not a political but a economic definition.

Exactly!  Just as I stated.  Now armed with that, go back and try to understand what is being said.

[Corp]

You think universal health care is oppression but the Patroit Act is just fine? Wow...

[keithisco]

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'm hardly a world traveler but I had made visits to England, Germany, and Italy.  I saw the oppression there.  It was albeit subtle but it was there.  You don't have to be in England to know it.  Things like their gun controls and NHS.  But Italy was something else.  You could see the oppression just dripping off the people.  Now, the people were all normal and they were very hospitable.  I would definitely go back.  They're a very beautiful people.  It's something that I can't really put into words but it was something that you could actually feel.  It was like an acceptance of their fate and their fate was subjugation.  

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??...
Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish!

Edited by keithisco, 15 November 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[questionmark]

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

It's not really capitalism as it was just industrialization.  It was the means of production that was controlled by the state.  The wealthy were part of the Party or the ruling elite.  Capitalism is more in line with a freer market system.  In a free market system, the economy is driven by a well educated consumer, not by the state directing it.

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Exactly!  Just as I stated.  Now armed with that, go back and try to understand what is being said.

Then you did it quite awkwardly, because neither Nazi Germany had a state controlled economy nor the US at the time.

[RavenHawk]

747400, on 15 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

It may not have been a free Market, but production of (for example) new designs of tanks or aircraft was done very much on the basis of each company putting forward their own competing designs, and them being selected after evaluation by the military- the competing designs of the Tiger, for instance, from Henschel and Porsche. This could be rather wasteful, with production effort being wasted on constructing several prototypes that no one then wanted, and was probably one big reason why they were out-produced by the U.S, which had a much more centrally controlled system; the Army came up with a design (e.g. the Sherman, crap as it was), and then dozens of firms constructed it. With aircraft it was a similar system to Germany, but after the favoured design was chosen many differnet firms were ordered by the Govt. to produce them, so that too was in effect pretty centrally controlled. Really an effective wartime economy can only be constructed by throwing the Free market out of the window (not to mention Democracy).

Competition isn’t only a hallmark of Capitalism.  You had members of the same Party vying for favorability in the Party.  That is certainly competition but it is hardly a free market.  Initially competition may be wasteful but in the long run, it proves to be more efficient.  There are just times in which time and need requires by-passing the competitiveness part.  But war has different requirements as well.  You can’t run industry under a strictly capitalist system.  The difference is that say, in Germany, the state owned industry and in American industry and government worked together with government being the leading entity.  Business was not owned by Party members but remained in the private sector.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Competition isn't only a hallmark of Capitalism.  You had members of the same Party vying for favorability in the Party.  That is certainly competition but it is hardly a free market.  Initially competition may be wasteful but in the long run, it proves to be more efficient.  There are just times in which time and need requires by-passing the competitiveness part.  But war has different requirements as well.  You can't run industry under a strictly capitalist system.  The difference is that say, in Germany, the state owned industry and in American industry and government worked together with government being the leading entity.  Business was not owned by Party members but remained in the private sector.

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned; in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.  But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

[questionmark]

747400, on 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned; in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.  But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

That is, because excluding the novelty effect, those petitions are hardly relevant, so the thread digresses in all directions

[Bama13]

keithisco, on 15 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??...
Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish!

You have never actually been to the US have you? You are just spouting EU propaganda.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you now look more foolish than RavenHawk.

Dang, it is so easy to talk smack to other posters. Call them liars even though you have no clue as to whether they are lying or not.

[RavenHawk]

keithisco, on 15 November 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

You have never actually been to these countries have you?? You are just reciting NRA Propoganda aren't you??...
Gun control has always been a feature in Europe, the NHS is an absolute "GodSend" where you do NOT lose all of your life - savings and home due to an illness or injury, no - one feels "subjugated" but after my recent 4 weeks in the USofA I know what "Subjugation" REALLY feels like.

Next time I would advise that you post from real, not imagined, experience because you have just made yourself look very foolish!

Oh, this precious.  I don’t think you were here – DOH!  Yeah, I’ve been imaging it all.  I was in England and Germany years ago in the late 80s.  It was a short trip, so no, I didn’t see gun control or NHS in action.  That is why I said “you don’t have to be there to know that”.  But I did see how that affected the British psyche and that stuck with me when I was in Italy many years later in the mid 00s.  I saw that same thing afflict the Italians that I did the Brits.  It reaffirmed “the curse” over the people.  And “the curse” comes from Thomas Harlan’s “Oath of Empire” series.  That is the closest that I have been able to come to explaining it in words.  

How many people die waiting to see a doctor?  What’s the queue like over there?  It’s not a GodSend.  People will die and you can’t stop it but aggravating it is not for America.  We’re just now having to deal with Obamacare.  My premiums have dropped a little but my out-of-pocket has skyrocketed.  I’ve never spent that much with the old insurance.  I’m basically screwed – it won’t pay to be healthy.  Just get into the program and take a pill for whatever.  This is a GodSend?  No it is not.  It is entrapment and enslavement.  I don’t need the government telling me how to take care of my body.  My standards have been higher anyway.

What you felt was freedom.  It still exists over here.  You were out of the comfort zone of your nanny state so that is what you were feeling.  It was the same for me being over there, but I felt the lack of freedom.  It was the exact opposite which would make sense.

[RavenHawk]

questionmark, on 15 November 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Then you did it quite awkwardly, because neither Nazi Germany had a state controlled economy nor the US at the time.

No, I wasn’t awkward.  You read what I said with a preconceived notion.  I’ve been noticing that about you and a few others.  You’re just not use to the way I write.  The economy was effectively controlled by the state.  The Nazi government just wasn’t in power long enough to have *complete* control but it was on path and during the war, it was hard to discern the difference.  They were transforming from the Weimar Republic and business could not be turned that quickly, but what you could do was make it a requirement that business owners become part of the Nazi Party and then the Party would control the ownership.  That is what is happening with Obamacare and Obama’s fixation on raising taxes on the top 2% for only a mere $75 billion a year.  And I wasn’t saying that the US had the same control.  Their control was for guidance and leadership in time of war.  After the war, business went back to doing the business, business wanted.  Could you have said the same thing if Nazi Germany had won?  By then, the population of Germany would not have known anything else but Nazism and state control of business.  This is why people are signing petition to secede now.  Because they’ve learned the lessons of the past.

[RavenHawk]

747400, on 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

This may be wandering somewhat off topic by now, but industry in Germany wasn't state owned;

I already answered that.  The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.

Quote

in fact, some of it (e.g. Ford and Opel) was American owned. American industry was more state controlled, effectively, really.

That is certainly one of the weird exceptions, but by the same token, Opel was never really a major player in the German war industry because of the US connections.  There was an issue of trust.  Opel was used to build parts for tanks and planes but that’s what you do for your own country.  It just wasn’t a key industrial center.  If Germany had won, ownership of Opel would have been confiscated by the state.

Quote

But this is steadily becoming less and less to do with 15 states filing petitions, i suppose.

Yes, it is.  Some people just can’t read between the lines and have to challenge everything.  It just isn’t conducive to discussing why people in these states would want to secede because one has to write a dissertation to cover all the lesser points which may or may not have anything to do with the subject.

[Corp]

How many people die because they can't afford treatment? Both systems have their flaws, but to claim that only America knows what freedom is...no. Most Europeans are just as free as Americans. And frankly it's foolish and insulting to claim otherwise.

[questionmark]

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I already answered that.  The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.

BS, the only condition was not being Jewish, and foreign ownership (i.e. Ford, GM, GE, IBM, ITT and what have you) was not curtailed (in fact Henry Ford got an award for his aid to the Reich from Hitler), in fact remained untouched all through the war.

Buy yourself a history book.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

RavenHawk, on 15 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

I already answered that.  The ownership of business had to be Party members and the Party controlled the members.


That is certainly one of the weird exceptions, but by the same token, Opel was never really a major player in the German war industry because of the US connections.  There was an issue of trust.  Opel was used to build parts for tanks and planes but that's what you do for your own country.  It just wasn't a key industrial center.  If Germany had won, ownership of Opel would have been confiscated by the state.

Well, Opel was a major producer of trucks for the German army, to the tune of some 82356 3-ton Opel Blitz 3.6-36 and 3.6-36S trucks, according to the ever-reliable Achtungpanzer.com, but I think we're heading well into Godwin territory now if we're somehow drawing comparisons with O'bamacare and O'bama raising taxes, I think.

Edited by 747400, 15 November 2012 - 09:16 PM.