11638 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

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No, I really don't think the flooding of Doggerland in 6145 BC and the Black Sea flood at 5400 BC had any relationship.

There wouldn't have been a relationship between the two of them anyway, Abramelin, as the 5400 BC date for the Black Sea Flood is incorrect.

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Faunal and geochemical reconstructions converge to indicate a rapid transition from a fresh to brackish lake to the ocean-connected modern Black Sea around 9 400 years ago (~8 400 14C years BP; Ryan et al., 2003; Major et al., 2006; Hiscott et al., 2007; Bahr et al., 2008), although a weak or transitory inflow of Mediterranean waters before that time is still discussed (e.g., Hiscott et al., 2007). Water level variations accompanying these changes remain, however, contentious. An agreement exists that a lake highstand at ~20-30 m below current sea level (mbsl) was reached sometimes during the deglacial to the earliest Holocene, but the exact timing, cause, and temporal extent of this is disputed (e.g., Ryan et al., 2003; Hiscott et al., 2007; Lericolais et al., 2007a).

Was the Black Sea catastrophically flooded in the early Holocene?

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 28 October 2010 - 04:26 PM, said:

There wouldn't have been a relationship between the two of them anyway, Abramelin, as the 5400 BC date for the Black Sea Flood is incorrect.



Was the Black Sea catastrophically flooded in the early Holocene?

cormac

I think we are probably off topic enough already...

But it does show that it's likely if any impact is involved in the OLB my guess it's one right at home, the Kaali impact in Estonia.

Not your link, I mean the Kaali impact site.

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 October 2010 - 04:40 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

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I think we are probably off topic enough already...

I seem to remember saying much the same previously, with you and Alewyn basically telling me, "SO...". There's no reason to pretend it's not OK now.

Regardless, the Kali impactor dating to the mid-first millenium BC would be irrelevant to the 2193 BC date.

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The age of the Kaali impact event is placed between 800-400 b.c. based on radiocarbon dating of the peat enriched with impact ejecta in the Piila bog.

Source

There are two other impactor areas within relative proximity to the Kaalijarv Crater. These are the Ilumetsa Crater c.4600 BC in Estonia and the Morasco Craters c.3000 - 1500 BC in Poland.

cormac

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 27 October 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:

Most people (and many non-Dutch writers) base their theories about the OLB on English translations like Sandbach's.

Before I'm going to leave the forum for a while (going to travel for a few months), I have one more example of inadequate English (Sandbach) translation, and hopefully it will encourage some of you to have a look at the original text as it is really not that difficult to understand, specially if you know a bit of German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Flemmish and/or Scandinavian.

I have chosen the beginning of the first text that Adela's followers copied to save it from oblivion.
("Survivors" page 312, original OLB page 6 or on Tresoar type: pagina "8" ga)

First translation is by Sandbach (1876), second in italic is improvised by me.
Significant corrections are underlined.

THÀT WAS FRYA HIS DEEI
It was Frya's day,
It was Frya's day,

ÀND TO THEERE STONDE WAS.T VRLEEDEN SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JEER.
and seven times seven years had elapsed
and at that time seven times seven years had passed

THAT FÀSTA WAS ANSTÀLD AS FOLK.MODER NEEI FRYA.S JEERTA.
since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder by the desire of Frya.
since Festa was appointed Folkmother after Frya's heart.

THJU BURCH MEEDEEA.S.BLIK WAS REED
The citadel of Medeasblik was ready,
The burgh Medeasblik was ready,

ÀND EN FÁM WAS KEEREN.
and a Burgtmaagd was chosen.
and a Fam was chosen.

NW SKOLDE FÀSTA THJU NEEJA FODDIK VPSTEEKA
Festa was about to light her new lamp,
Now Festa should stick-up the new foddik,

ÀND THÁ THAT DEEN WAS AN ÀINWARDA FON THÀT FOLK
and when she had done so in the presence of all the people,
and when that was done in the presence of the folk,

THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE
Frya called from her watch-star,
Frya called from her wake-star,

SÁ THÀT ALLERA MANNALIK THÀT HEERA MACHTE.
so that every one could hear it:
so that all people might hear it:

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA
"Festa, take your style and write the things,
"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.
that I may not speak."
that I was not allowed to say earlier."

FÀSTA DEEDE ALSA HJA BODEN WÀRTH.
Festa did as she was bid,
Festa did as she was ordered,

SÁ SEND WY FRYA.S BÀRN.A VSA FORMA SKEEDNISE KEEMEN.
and thus we became Frya's children, and our earliest history began.
so we Frya's bern have recieved our first history.

Short interpretation/ food for discussion:
Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.
What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?
Festa/ Vesta wrote it down. Did she make it up?
Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?

This inspires me to make one critical note about Alewyn's book.
In his introduction he writes (p.16):
"Today it seems as if the book only has value for pagan and occult groups - in stark contrast to the intentions and beliefs of the original authors."

First, I doubt if it is true that mostly 'pagan and occult groups' are interested and wonder why he thinks this is so.
Second, a Folkmother hearing the voice of her dead predecessor and writing down what she is 'told', to me sounds like something that we would call an 'occult' practice.

Finally, for those who like maps, two goodies (scanned from "Graven van Holland" by de Boer and Cordfunke):
 kaart1small.jpg   91.48K   8 downloads  kaart2small.jpg   109.15K   8 downloads
Thanks all for the (often) inspiring discussions and good luck truth-seeking.
I'll be back.

Edited by Otharus, 28 October 2010 - 09:06 PM.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 28 October 2010 - 05:03 PM, said:

I seem to remember saying much the same previously, with you and Alewyn basically telling me, "SO...". There's no reason to pretend it's not OK now.


cormac

lol can't you see my sarcasm?

I like to throw things back, I can't help it.

I'm not sure if you saw all the info Abe and I just gave on dating but 2000BC is the date they think suits best. 700BC is when they find habitation inside the crater itself.

It's actually very relevant.

Ilumetsa might be one more relevant to Abe and Doggerland. Estimated at around 4600BC. Might be the one that hit earlier and showed the (old)mixed result for Kaali.

Plato does tell us the Phaethon event seems to be something that comes around after long periods - as though it was recognised that it had happened prior to "Phaethon"...that this also hit in Estonia makes me think they may have known about the Ilumetsa one too in their past, maybe.

I can imagine dating craters is pretty tricky from what I've picked up.

Ilumetsa
The crater is partly filled with a thin layer of gyttja and peat up to 2 m thick. Radiocarbon ages of 6030 ± 100 (TA-310) and 5910 ± 100 (TA-725) years B.P. from the lowermost organic layer and palynological evidence suggest that the age of the impact was ∼6000 14C years B.P. The Sügavhaud crater has a diameter of 50 m at the top of the rim and is 4.5 m deep. Organic matter on the bottom of the crater is absent. As precise age determination of the Ilumetsa craters by direct dating methods has proved inconclusive, we proposed a method of geological correlation which is based on the occurrence of impact spherules in lake and bog sediments around the crater field. Radiocarbon dating of samples from a peat layer with glassy spherules of impact origin in the Meenikunno Bog, 6 km southwest of the Ilumetsa crater field, yielded the ages of 6542 ± 50 (Tln-2214) for the depth interval 5.6–5.7 m and 6697 ± 50 (Tln-2316) years B.P. for the depth interval 5.7–5.8 m. These dates suggest that the Ilumetsa craters were formed ∼6600 years ago.

http://onlinelibrary...1842.x/abstract


Possible 4600BC date for Ilumetsa, never seen it's dating as low as 2000BC.

[The Puzzler]

Got any links or info on Morasco, can't find one search link for it.

[The Puzzler]

Bye for a while then Otharus, if this thread has slacked up when you get back, please be sure to add to it again so we can continue this further with your participation. )

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 28 October 2010 - 10:54 PM, said:

Got any links or info on Morasco, can't find one search link for it.

14C and TL DATING AS A METHOD OF ESTABLISHING THE ORIGIN OF KETTLE-LIKE HOLLOWS

Slight spelling error on my part. Moras(K)o. You can also find informaton in the Earth Impact Database.

I have to admit to not having looked into this particular site much until now but either prior link for the Kaali Crater, yours or mine, would appear to be in error AND NEITHER are relevant to an alleged 2193 BC date.

Quote

AMS dating of terrestrial macrofossils from the
deepest part of the meteorite impact crater-lake at
Kaali, island of Saaremaa, Estonia places the age of
the impact at 1690–1510 B.C. The age agrees with
previous research inside the crater, but is about 1000
years older than revealed from impact marker-horizon
radiocarbon dating in a contemporaneous peat sequence,
yet those two signatures reflect the same impact
event. The microspherules discovered by Raukas
et al. (1995) could indicate another much older event
not connected with the Kaali impact.

The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect of the impact on the environment and man: evidence from inside the Kaali craters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 29 October 2010 - 12:00 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Researching Kaali crater too my mind to another Kaali name, that of Kali.

So, what's Kali about, the description sounds like what could be construed as aimpact event imo. Not directly but it doesn't seem to NOT say it...the imagery to me sounds similar - eternal energy, black, death, annihilation...

Kālī (Sanskrit: काली, IPA: [kɑːliː]; Bengali: কালী), also known as Kalika (Bengali: কালিকা, Kālikā), is the Hindu goddess associated with eternal energy. The name Kali comes from kāla, which means black, time, death, lord of death, Shiva. Kali means "the black one". Since Shiva is called Kāla - the eternal time, Kālī, his consort, also means "the Time" or "Death" (as in time has come). Hence, Kali is considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali



Edit for link.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 October 2010 - 12:09 AM.

[The Puzzler]

The Puzzler, on 28 October 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

Bye for a while then Otharus, if this thread has slacked up when you get back, please be sure to add to it again so we can continue this further with your participation.  

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 28 October 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

14C and TL DATING AS A METHOD OF ESTABLISHING THE ORIGIN OF KETTLE-LIKE HOLLOWS

Slight spelling error on my part. Moras(K)o. You can also find informaton in the Earth Impact Database.

I have to admit to not having looked into this particular site much until now but either prior link for the Kaali Crater, yours or mine, would appear to be in error AND NEITHER are relevant to an alleged 2193 BC date.



The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect of the impact on the environment and man: evidence from inside the Kaali craters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia

cormac

Yep, I did mention how this date seemed to co-incide with the date of Thera, give or take a few years. (1690-1510BC). The traditional timeframe is 2000BC according to the Estonians themselves and pollen data.



http://books.google....0crater&f=false

Page 349 it starts as this: Traditionally, in Estonia the age of the impact is placed at some 4000 yr BP.

The whole research ends with this:

"At least 3390+_35 years old, however, actually they should be much older."

then

This link Abe, I think was the one you gave, I had so many up I forget, it says: page 270 "Possibly 1690BC - 1510BC."

Some dates given earlier: (from Abe's post)
"The precise age the impact event remains controversial:

About 4000 BP (Before the present), based on recent radiocarbon - and pollen-dating of sediments infilling the main crater (Saarse et al., 1991);

Either 370 to 400 BCE (Before the Common Era) (Rassmussen et al., 2000), or up to

7600 BP (Raukas, 1997, 2000), according to indirect dating from surrounding mire deposits."



Again from Abe's link And they use the 2000 BC date as most probable.



All those are from links already posted, just giving a summary of main times.



Will check out the Morasko link some more, thanks.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Yep, I did mention how this date seemed to co-incide with the date of Thera, give or take a few years. (1690-1510BC).

This is the kind of generalized statement I have to take exception to. A timeframe of 180 years is not the same as 'a few years'. But yes, the current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC, does fall roughly in the middle of this timeframe.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 29 October 2010 - 12:51 AM, said:

This is the kind of generalized statement I have to take exception to. A timeframe of 180 years is not the same as 'a few years'. But yes, the current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC, does fall roughly in the middle of this timeframe.

cormac

Yeah, sorry, sometimes precise dates escape me unless I relook them up every 5 minutes.

I tell you though, this date seems a possibility if I escape from the OLB for a moment. (The 180 year timeframe)

According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion.
http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Phaëton

So, when was that? Crotopus is hard to date but he's early, prior to the Trojan War - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotopus

According to the Parian Chronicle it was:
1529/8BC 4) From when there was a flood in the time of Deucalion, and Deucalion fled the waters from Lycoreia to Athens to [Cranaos] and [founded the temple of Olympian] Zeu[s, and] made offerings for his deliverance, 1265 years, when Cranaos was king of Athens.
http://www.ashmolean...04/q004008.html

You say: current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC.

Wiki gives us:
For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicate that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability (Friedrich, Kromer, Friedrich, Heinemeier, Pfeiffer, Talamo, Science, 2006).
Another method used to establish the date of eruption is tree-ring dating. Tree-ring data has shown that a large event interfering with normal tree growth in North America occurred during 1629-1628 BCE.[31] Evidence of a climatic event around 1628 BCE has been found in studies of growth depression of European oaks in Ireland and in Sweden.[32] Bristlecone pine frost rings also indicate a date of 1627.[33][34] Procedural changes in how ice cores are interpreted would bring that data more in line with the dendrochronological numbers.[35]

Although radiocarbon consistently indicates a 1600 BCE eruption dating, some archeologists still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations. For example, buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.
http://en.wikipedia....Minoan_eruption
Problems such as the one I highlighted might mean the dates are a a bit out anyway...

1628BC by the affected tree rings in Sweden and Europe might be a clue to the Kaali impact.

Date given as one possible for Kaali craters: (1690-1510BC).

In relation to the OLB though and the mention of Cecrops timeframe:
1582/1BC 1) From when Cecrops became king of Athens and the place was called Cecropia, which had previously been called Actica from Actaeon who was native there, 1318 years.  

1690-1520 BC     - Kaali

1613+/- 10yrs BC - Thera For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young.
1529 BC          - Deucalion
1529 era BC      - Phaethon

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

You say: current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC.

I've posted it several times and in threads you've been in, it's from here:

Quote

Two olive branches buried by a Minoan-era eruption of the volcano on the island of Thera (modern-day Santorini) have enabled precise radiocarbon dating of the catastrophe to 1613 BC, with an error margin of plus or minus 10 years, according to two researchers who presented conclusions of their previously published research during an event on Tuesday at the Danish Archaeological Institute of Athens.

Source

Wiki can be useful at times, but is just as often wrong as it is right.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 29 October 2010 - 05:43 AM, said:

I've posted it several times and in threads you've been in, it's from here:



Source

Wiki can be useful at times, but is just as often wrong as it is right.

cormac

No, Wiki wasn't wrong, it agreed with this.

Despite this evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicate that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability (Friedrich, Kromer, Friedrich, Heinemeier, Pfeiffer, Talamo, Science, 2006).

Plus or minus 10 years on 1613BC is 1623-1603BC.