Bogeyman Posted May 25, 2006 #1 Share Posted May 25, 2006 I'm not really into this debate one way or t'other but this documentary sure makes a compelling case for intelligent design......It's not sponsored by any religion BTW as far as i can tell. Those little "machines" inside of our cells are so craaaaaaazy This is a must see........enjoy....hope this link works http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...duration%3Along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waspie_Dwarf Posted May 25, 2006 #2 Share Posted May 25, 2006 (edited) This video is a piece of propaganda made by a not for profit organisation group called Illustra Media. They are a pro intelligent design group. In 2005 a PBS affiliate station refused to broadcast one of their documentaries because it was funded by evangellical Christian groups. Source: MSNBC Intelligent design has next to zero support in the scientific community. Edited May 25, 2006 by Waspie_Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilly Posted May 25, 2006 #3 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Intelligent Design may be considered as a compelling faith based hypothesis, but ID is not in any way, shape, or form a scientific hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogeyman Posted May 25, 2006 Author #4 Share Posted May 25, 2006 (edited) Whoa ...slow down ...there are a lot of heavy hitter proffessors and scientists in there.......did you watch it ? As i said i'm not up to speed enough to take sides on this as it doesn't really push my buttons.....but watch it and then come back and counter their arguments.....tut tut you two above all people should know this ... I mean that "motorised" flossiem (or whatever) bacteria sure looks like a machinistic piece of kit to me It's as simple as this ...is what they say true or not ? And hey ......MSNBC ?....they really are the truthbringers arent they ......NOT in the documentary there are contributions by the following Michael Behe ...Biochemist Lehigh University Jed Macosko... Biologist university of California,Berkley Scott Minnich...Molecular biologist university of Idaho Dean Kenyon....Proffessor of Biology San Francisco university Some of whom were dedicated "darwinists" before delving deeper...are they misleading us when describing these cells and bacteria ? Edited May 25, 2006 by Bogeyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waspie_Dwarf Posted May 25, 2006 #5 Share Posted May 25, 2006 I have to admit that I haven't watched the whole video yet, but a Horizon programme on just this subject was aired in the UK earlier this year. The big hitters are admitting they can not explain this mechanism. How many of them are saying "well that means Intelligent Design" is the answer? The motorised component is admittedly difficult to explain in a purely Darwinian way. However just because there is a very minor difficulty with one theory (which may be explained ay a later date) it in no way constitutes evidence for Intelligent Design. There is little or no evoidence for Intelligent Design (which is just a relabelled creationism theory). Even if Darwinism is proved to be wrong it is not evidence for any other theory. Science needs evidence for a theory for it to be accepted. None has been provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waspie_Dwarf Posted May 25, 2006 #6 Share Posted May 25, 2006 (edited) And hey ......MSNBC ?....they really are the truthbringers arent they ......NOT in the documentary there are contributions by the following Actually the MSNBC information was simply about why a TV station refused to air an Illustra Media documentary... I provided it because you stated this documentary was not sponsered by any religion, when in fact it is made by acompany funded by a religion. And where did I find the link to the MSNBCs story... on the Illustra Media web site. Edited May 25, 2006 by Waspie_Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Posted May 26, 2006 #7 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Intelligent Design is a load of tripe for one it's the churches attempt to say that their is no explanation other than the existence of god. This view makes me angry but it may have been an ancient alien civilization duping waste on earth and from the waste was bacteria from which humans eventually evolved from. That sounds more possible to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogeyman Posted May 26, 2006 Author #8 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Well One of those proffessors had written a book backing up darwinian theories and he tried to explain how natural selection started by an "accidental" combination of elements.....Then one of his students asked him ..."where did the blueprint come from ?" ...because DNA contains the blueprints for every cell and organism in our body...he had no answer to this and when he looked deper he had to totally reassess his views......You dont see scientists on this level backtraking too often.. Anyway's from what i could see the science is totally valid and the documentary is well worth a look. That flossiem bacteria looks and works exactly like an outboard motor with over 40 component parts ...and a prop that spins at 100,000 RPM when they get into what constitutes "intelligent design" it does make you wonder how something like that can just happen ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizno Posted May 26, 2006 #9 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Well One of those proffessors had written a book backing up darwinian theories and he tried to explain how natural selection started by an "accidental" combination of elements.....Then one of his students asked him ..."where did the blueprint come from ?" ...because DNA contains the blueprints for every cell and organism in our body...he had no answer to this and when he looked deper he had to totally reassess his views......You dont see scientists on this level backtraking too often.. Anyway's from what i could see the science is totally valid and the documentary is well worth a look. That flossiem bacteria looks and works exactly like an outboard motor with over 40 component parts ...and a prop that spins at 100,000 RPM when they get into what constitutes "intelligent design" it does make you wonder how something like that can just happen ! "how something like that can just happen" That's the fundamental flaw in the religious response to science. Science does not say that things "just happen". That flagellum is the result of billions of years of evolution. It did not suddenly appear in its present form. It started out as a simple organ that moved something or eliminated something from the cell or detected light...who knows? Over billions of years it changed and changed and changed again and now is in its present form. Remember that we're talking about BILLIONS of years. That's an unthinkably long time. Bacteria reproduce extremely quickly. The number of generations of bacteria since the beginning is unimaginable. Life and natural selection are tremedously powerful. Acting over that length of time, things this amazing and more amazing are entirely possible. Gods are not needed to explain life. The ID arguments always come down to "I don't know how it happened, therefore gods must have made it happen." That's called an argument from ignorance. It's a worthless argument. Just because we can't explain a thing doesn't mean that it has to be supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogeyman Posted May 29, 2006 Author #10 Share Posted May 29, 2006 (edited) "how something like that can just happen" That's the fundamental flaw in the religious response to science. Science does not say that things "just happen". That flagellum is the result of billions of years of evolution. It did not suddenly appear in its present form. It started out as a simple organ that moved something or eliminated something from the cell or detected light...who knows? Over billions of years it changed and changed and changed again and now is in its present form. Remember that we're talking about BILLIONS of years. That's an unthinkably long time. Bacteria reproduce extremely quickly. The number of generations of bacteria since the beginning is unimaginable. Life and natural selection are tremedously powerful. Acting over that length of time, things this amazing and more amazing are entirely possible. Gods are not needed to explain life. The ID arguments always come down to "I don't know how it happened, therefore gods must have made it happen." That's called an argument from ignorance. It's a worthless argument. Just because we can't explain a thing doesn't mean that it has to be supernatural. You're totally misrepresenting my views there blizno..... First off i'm not religious 2nd i never thought that it appeared suddenly in it's present form...... Heres the argument against evolution from Michael Behe "Because the bacterial flagellum is necessarily composed of at least three parts -- a paddle,a rotor, and a motor -- it is irreducibly complex. Gradual evolution of the flagellum, like the cilium, therefore faces mammoth hurdles" Is this a true statment ? Have you watched the movie btw ? Edited May 29, 2006 by Bogeyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterII Posted May 30, 2006 #11 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Intelligent Design may be considered as a compelling faith based hypothesis, but ID is not in any way, shape, or form a scientific hypothesis. Scientific Hypothesis??? The mere mention of something as scientific subjects it to fallibility. Here's how science works; hypothesis, testing, theory supporting or contradicting the hypothesis based on testing. Theories may be correct or incorrect. That's why they are called theories. When a hypothesis is proven true 100% no exceptions it is no longer considered scientific, it becomes fact. At this point both ID and evolution are theories and to accept either of them requires faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivytheplant Posted May 30, 2006 #12 Share Posted May 30, 2006 (edited) Scientific Hypothesis??? The mere mention of something as scientific subjects it to fallibility. Here's how science works; hypothesis, testing, theory supporting or contradicting the hypothesis based on testing. Theories may be correct or incorrect. That's why they are called theories. When a hypothesis is proven true 100% no exceptions it is no longer considered scientific, it becomes fact. At this point both ID and evolution are theories and to accept either of them requires faith. Evolution is fact. Anyone who looks at the fossil record can tell you that. Evolution by natural selection, however, is a theory. The difference between ID and evolution by natural selection is one a religious belief and one is a scientific theory that has been studied the world over by people who are trained to be objective. Yes, both are theories, and both require a kind of "faith," however, any theory, whether it's the theory of gravity or the theory that Giant Snake People From Underground will one day cause the sun to explode, will require that until enough evidence can be gathered to show that it is a working hypothesis. And the last I checked, scientists studying EbNS didn't falsify evidence, twist words, ignore evidence that refutes their claims, or cling to "evidence" that has been proven time and time again as hoaxes. Intelligent Design is a religious-based theory proposed by a religion. To say it's not religious is like saying a welding torch isn't hot because it's blue. You have to have faith to believe a Magic Sky Man pointed and made things appear. If you want to call looking at the evidence and reaching a conclusion "faith," then I suggest you get a dictionary. By the way, science is about doubt. You have to doubt and doubt and doubt until something stands up to your doubt. In science, nothing is proven, only falsified. It's not proven that the sun will come up tomorrow. If the sun comes up tomorrow, then the theory that it won't has been falsified. If it fails to come up tomorrow, then the theory that it will come up tomorrow has been falsified. But that doesn't mean it will never come up again. Every day, every scrap of evidence falsifies one theory, continues to falsify a theory, or falsifies the theory we thought was right. Edited May 30, 2006 by ivytheplant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivytheplant Posted May 30, 2006 #13 Share Posted May 30, 2006 (edited) Scientific Hypothesis??? The mere mention of something as scientific subjects it to fallibility. So you're saying that ID is infallible because it's from God? In which case, it's not scientific at all. Of course science is fallible. Everything is. Except God, apparently. If God is infallible, why bother searching for evidence? Edit: Becaues my fingers outyped my brain. Edited May 30, 2006 by ivytheplant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byuu94 Posted May 30, 2006 #14 Share Posted May 30, 2006 So you're saying that ID is infallible because it's from God? In which case, it's not scientific at all. Of course science is infallible. Everything is. Except God, apparently. If God is infallible, why bother searching for evidence? I think you meant to say "science is fallible." ID will never be a "theory" simply because it fails to meet one of the requirements for a theory: the ability to predict (to some extent) future outcomes. We can reasonably extrapolate how a species might evolve in response to environment pressures and other stimuli. However, if everything is controlled by an independent being, then it is basically impossible to predict which direction things will go in since only that being will know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivytheplant Posted May 30, 2006 #15 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I think you meant to say "science is fallible." ID will never be a "theory" simply because it fails to meet one of the requirements for a theory: the ability to predict (to some extent) future outcomes. We can reasonably extrapolate how a species might evolve in response to environment pressures and other stimuli. However, if everything is controlled by an independent being, then it is basically impossible to predict which direction things will go in since only that being will know. Yup, I meant fallible. Oy. Not to mention, the Big Magic Sky Man seems to like changing the rules on us too, if the "textbook" by which ID proponents live by is any indication... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterII Posted May 30, 2006 #16 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Yup, I meant fallible. Oy. Not to mention, the Big Magic Sky Man seems to like changing the rules on us too, if the "textbook" by which ID proponents live by is any indication... Intelligent Design in no way nessecitates the existence of a spiritual deity. If a scientist were to create life in a test-tube would that scientist become a spiritual deity??? I think not. Would that life-form be of intelligent design? Yes it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizno Posted May 30, 2006 #17 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Intelligent Design in no way nessecitates the existence of a spiritual deity. If a scientist were to create life in a test-tube would that scientist become a spiritual deity??? I think not. Would that life-form be of intelligent design? Yes it would. What could create the universe other than gods? Aliens? What "designed" the aliens that would have to be vastly more complex than Earthly life? Other aliens? What "designed" them? The ID scheme requires gods. Nothing else could possible create the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterII Posted May 30, 2006 #18 Share Posted May 30, 2006 What could create the universe other than gods? Aliens? What "designed" the aliens that would have to be vastly more complex than Earthly life? Other aliens? What "designed" them? The ID scheme requires gods. Nothing else could possible create the universe. No, the ID scheme simply requires prior intelligence not gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivytheplant Posted May 30, 2006 #19 Share Posted May 30, 2006 As I had mentioned in another forum, evolution by natural selection only describes how life changed over the billions of years it's been on the planet. It in no way says anything about how that life started. Life could have appeared when God took a dump, aliens tossed some garbage out of their spaceship, or Galactus spit out a piece of another planet. We don't know how life started but we do know how it changed through time. That's all evolution really is. Why it's such a controversial topic is beyond me. So yeah, God could have started it all and just left the universe to grow and change in the laws he dictated the universe obey. Makes more sense than the world on the back of a turtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizno Posted May 30, 2006 #20 Share Posted May 30, 2006 As I had mentioned in another forum, evolution by natural selection only describes how life changed over the billions of years it's been on the planet. It in no way says anything about how that life started. Life could have appeared when God took a dump, aliens tossed some garbage out of their spaceship, or Galactus spit out a piece of another planet. We don't know how life started but we do know how it changed through time. That's all evolution really is. Why it's such a controversial topic is beyond me. So yeah, God could have started it all and just left the universe to grow and change in the laws he dictated the universe obey. Makes more sense than the world on the back of a turtle. ID specifically states that present life had to be designed as we see it now or almost as we see it now. ID isn't satisfied with starting a very primitive cell and letting it change through natural means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizno Posted May 30, 2006 #21 Share Posted May 30, 2006 No, the ID scheme simply requires prior intelligence not gods. How did this "prior intelligence" appear? It has to be far more complex than bacteria, humans and all other earthly life in order to have created earthly life as it is now, so either it evolved through natural means or something even more complex created it. If humans are much too complex to have evolved, then the creating intelligences are much, much too complex to have evolved. To say that ID doesn't require gods is false. ID does require gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterII Posted May 30, 2006 #22 Share Posted May 30, 2006 How did this "prior intelligence" appear? It has to be far more complex than bacteria, humans and all other earthly life in order to have created earthly life as it is now, so either it evolved through natural means or something even more complex created it. If humans are much too complex to have evolved, then the creating intelligences are much, much too complex to have evolved. To say that ID doesn't require gods is false. ID does require gods. How the prior intelligence appeared is irrelevant to intelligent design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizno Posted May 30, 2006 #23 Share Posted May 30, 2006 How the prior intelligence appeared is irrelevant to intelligent design. Huh? Earthly life is too complex to appear without a creator but a creator capable of creating all Earthly life COULD appear without a creator? This issue is CENTRAL to ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterII Posted May 30, 2006 #24 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Huh? Earthly life is too complex to appear without a creator but a creator capable of creating all Earthly life COULD appear without a creator? This issue is CENTRAL to ID. Nope. ID is simply the assertion that earthly life is by design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blizno Posted May 30, 2006 #25 Share Posted May 30, 2006 Nope. ID is simply the assertion that earthly life is by design. Correct. Design requires a designer. ID says there must have been an "intelligent designer". Who is this designer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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