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Location of the "Deposits of Hermes" in Egypt

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#1    Dark_Lord

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

I connect to this other thread on the Hermetic Hall of Records of the ancient Sabeans in Turkey: http://www.unexplain...howtopic=231259

I recently bought a very rare French edition of an ancient Arabic MS by the title of "Livre des perles enfouies et du mystere precieux", including very interesting notes and a commentary by George Daressy (1918).
You can read online the 1907 edition at the following link: http://archive.org/d...sperlesen00amad (without the commentary of Daressy)

The book is notable for mentioning the location of various cachettes of ancient treasures in the land of Egypt, and takes the form of a codified document using allegorical metaphors and an alchemical language which is typical of medieval hermetism. The original manuscript dates to the XV Century and had circulated for a while in occult circles before being published by the Egyptologis Gaston Maspero in 1907 (the aim of Maspero was to put an end to indiscriminate treasure hunting by exposing the book and its presumed "secrets". Of course this sorted quite the opposite).

It contains a descriptions of 417 cachettes and warnings against the unprepared, descriptions of the rituals to be performed and the treasures hidden therein. There is no logical flow in the text, which appears as a random collection or list of supposed magical treasures buried at various locations in Egypt. The description numbered CCCLXIX is the most famous as it describes the fabulous lost city (oasis) of Zerzura, which inspired many books and even a few movies.

There are however also several descriptions of cachettes in or around the plain of Giza. The descriptions numbered CCXIX and CCXX are especially interesting, as they mention some kind of "deposits" of hermetic knowledge and occult artefacts which bear a very close resemblance to the hermetic concept of an ante-diluvian Hall of Records.

Description CCXX is notable for providing very accurate geographical indications that one can follow until the "deposits of Hermes":

Quote

"The deposits of Hermes are located close to the blessed tree that neither dies in Winter nor in the Summer, which does not surrender to the winds, which is not affected by the passing of time and the like of which is nowhere to be found on the Western mountain"

From the commentary of Daressy and the passage above, it is clear that the tree in question is a Sycamore, which was sacred to Hathor (also called "Mistress of the Sycamore" or "Mistress of the Sycamore of the South"). Also, Daressy mentions a different edition of the same MS which calls the tree a "Sycamore of stone", which may therefore hint at some rock formation or an ancient monument located in the Libyan desert (the Western mountain) west of Giza.
The manuscript then goes on to describe two alternate routes in order to reach the deposits:

Quote

"The first route leading to the deposits of Hermes starts from the convent of Hermes, son of Hermes, close to which stand many pyramids both large and small: take a road from these pyramids towards the Royal Church: you will get there after one day of march, heading West. Going on, you will reach the third mountain, and from there you will proceed towards the deposits taking a path to the South-West passing by the pyramids of Shaddad, the son of Ad"

According to Daressy, the "convent of Hermes" may be identified with the monastery of Jeremiah in Sakkara, and thus the "Pyramids both large and small" are indeed the pyramids of Sakkara.
There is no hint as to the location of the "Royal Church - l' Eglise Royal", however, it is quite clear that the author does not mean an actual Church, but rather some ancient monument (a large tomb of the Memphite necropolis or a Temple?).
The pyramids of Shaddad must therefore be the Pyramids of Snefru at Dahshur.

There is then a second route leading to the deposits:

Quote

"This second route begins next to a village by the name of Barnasht, and you fill find this road much easier and faster. As soon as you will be in Barnasht, you will march to the North-West. After about 4 miles, you fill encounter a high hill by the name of Halq: climb the hill to find seven tombs [follows a description of the fumigations and the content of the tombs]. Whatewer route you will take, you will always encounter this hill on the way to the Sycomore named Mohalleq or Halq, where many birds are stationed: As soon as you have reached this tree, from whatever route, you will see in front of you the Tell as well as the tombs on its highest point. Look west, then head slightly North, and you will find yourself amidst a vast desert crossed by a road: follow this road. You will reach some large hills: from there you will reach three others and finally to the blessed tree after 3 miles to the North. The tree stands amidst a walled enclosure, to the East of which you will find 11 mastabas, of which one takes an isolated position"

Then follows the description of several chambers and crypts containing tombs and many treasures.

Would be interesting to track the path on Google Earth, perhaps with some help from the egyptologist in the forum in identifying the various places and landmarks mentioned in the ancient text...
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#2    The_Spartan

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:59 PM

The best person to contact is kmt_sesh.
Anybody claiming to be an egyptologist would rather be a fake.
cladking will of course chip in. if he utters a word "geyser" whack him on his head.
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#3    kmt_sesh

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:51 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 09 August 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

The best person to contact is kmt_sesh.
Anybody claiming to be an egyptologist would rather be a fake.
cladking will of course chip in. if he utters a word "geyser" whack him on his head.

This really has nothing to do with the traditions and culture of pharaonic Egypt, meaning the great time span of the kingdom between 3100 BCE and 30 BCE. It also would have nothing to do with the subsequent Roman Period, and almost certainly nothing to do, either, with the Coptic period following that. Things like "Hermetic Hall of Records" and "Deposits of Hermes" are quite divorced from the kingdom of the pharaohs.

You can be absolutely certain of this much. Beyond that, I'm not sure. The onset of the Muslim period (seventh century CE) marks a complete cultural departure from previous periods. The early Muslims were great thinkers and explorers and they delighted in contemplating ancient Egypt, but they knew almost nothing substantive about it. Early Muslims addressed the many unknowns with myths and fables, some of which had slipped down to them from Greek and Roman times. The fabled "mystery cults" are much overblown and misunderstood in modern times, and while prevalent in Greek and Roman cultures, they were not really germane to the religion or culture of pharaonic Egypt.
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#4    Harte

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:15 PM

View PostDark_Lord, on 09 August 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:


Quote

"The first route leading to the deposits of Hermes starts from the convent of Hermes, son of Hermes, close to which stand many pyramids both large and small: take a road from these pyramids towards the Royal Church: you will get there after one day of march, heading West. Going on, you will reach the third mountain, and from there you will proceed towards the deposits taking a path to the South-West passing by the pyramids of Shaddad, the son of Ad"

According to Daressy, the "convent of Hermes" may be identified with the monastery of Jeremiah in Sakkara, and thus the "Pyramids both large and small" are indeed the pyramids of Sakkara.
There is no hint as to the location of the "Royal Church - l' Eglise Royal", however, it is quite clear that the author does not mean an actual Church, but rather some ancient monument (a large tomb of the Memphite necropolis or a Temple?).
The pyramids of Shaddad must therefore be the Pyramids of Snefru at Dahshur.

Unfortunately, Dahshur - where Sneferu's pyramids are - is almost due north from Saqqara so the directions given above ("...you will get there after one day of march, heading West....") will not lead you past Sneferu's pyramids.

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#5    cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

View PostHarte, on 09 August 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Unfortunately, Dahshur - where Sneferu's pyramids are - is almost due north from Saqqara so the directions given above ("...you will get there after one day of march, heading West....") will not lead you past Sneferu's pyramids.

Harte

Actually Dahshur would be almost due south from Saqqara. Which wouldn't matter anyway since if "Pyramids both large and small" is in reference to Saqqara, then the directions given would put a person within the vicinity of the Fayum. Probably close to the Kom W and Kom K sites.

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#6    Harte

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 08:41 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 09 August 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Actually Dahshur would be almost due south from Saqqara.
cormac

My bad.

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#7    Dark_Lord

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:10 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 August 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

This really has nothing to do with the traditions and culture of pharaonic Egypt, meaning the great time span of the kingdom between 3100 BCE and 30 BCE. It also would have nothing to do with the subsequent Roman Period, and almost certainly nothing to do, either, with the Coptic period following that. Things like "Hermetic Hall of Records" and "Deposits of Hermes" are quite divorced from the kingdom of the pharaohs.

You can be absolutely certain of this much. Beyond that, I'm not sure. The onset of the Muslim period (seventh century CE) marks a complete cultural departure from previous periods. The early Muslims were great thinkers and explorers and they delighted in contemplating ancient Egypt, but they knew almost nothing substantive about it. Early Muslims addressed the many unknowns with myths and fables, some of which had slipped down to them from Greek and Roman times. The fabled "mystery cults" are much overblown and misunderstood in modern times, and while prevalent in Greek and Roman cultures, they were not really germane to the religion or culture of pharaonic Egypt.

Thanks Kmt_Sesh!
Are you aware of any traditions relating to a sacred tree (most certainly a Sycamore) associated with Hathor in the region of Dahshur or Fayyium? I see that Hathor sometimes receives the appellative of "Mistress of the Sycamore" or "Mystress of the Southern Sycamore". Was there any cultus place, Perhaps in hellenistic or Roman times, associated with a Tree-cult of Hathor in Lower Egypt or close to the Memphite necropolis?
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#8    Dark_Lord

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:12 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 09 August 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Actually Dahshur would be almost due south from Saqqara. Which wouldn't matter anyway since if "Pyramids both large and small" is in reference to Saqqara, then the directions given would put a person within the vicinity of the Fayum. Probably close to the Kom W and Kom K sites.

cormac

Thanks Cormac!
What is the Kom W and Kom K sites?
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#9    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:54 AM

View PostDark_Lord, on 10 August 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Thanks Cormac!
What is the Kom W and Kom K sites?
http://www.ioa.ucla....ndrich_etal.pdf
An explanation of one's position after falling for the ramblings of a Sitchin, Von Daniken, Berlitz, Bauval, Schoch, Hancock, Velikovsky and many others if it was expressed by two of my favorite characters from "The Big Bang Theory":  Leonard: All right, well, let me see if I can explain your situation using physics. What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis?  Sheldon: Screwed.

#10    Taun

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:10 PM

I'm no where near as knowledgeable on Ancient Egypt - or early Muslim Egypt as those who've posted on this board so I won't even try to comment on any of that - what they've said is as close to precisely correct as you are likely to find anywhere...

I do wonder however about the validity of the original MS... It seems to me that if ancient scholars knew about these sites, and how important they supposedly were, they would have gone there (using their own directions), gathered up all the 'treasure' and books, scrolls, etc and put them in their own libraries where they could more easily study them...   Why leave directions for 'outsiders' to go there?

#11    Harte

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostTaun, on 10 August 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I'm no where near as knowledgeable on Ancient Egypt - or early Muslim Egypt as those who've posted on this board so I won't even try to comment on any of that
Why hesitate?

Lack of knowledge hasn't stopped very many posters here from commenting! LOL

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#12    questionmark

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostHarte, on 10 August 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Why hesitate?

Lack of knowledge hasn't stopped very many posters here from commenting! LOL

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#13    Dark_Lord

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostTaun, on 10 August 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I'm no where near as knowledgeable on Ancient Egypt - or early Muslim Egypt as those who've posted on this board so I won't even try to comment on any of that - what they've said is as close to precisely correct as you are likely to find anywhere...

I do wonder however about the validity of the original MS... It seems to me that if ancient scholars knew about these sites, and how important they supposedly were, they would have gone there (using their own directions), gathered up all the 'treasure' and books, scrolls, etc and put them in their own libraries where they could more easily study them...   Why leave directions for 'outsiders' to go there?

This is indeed a good point. Why would anybody make or publish a list of cachettes and ancient treasures if they were real?
Either the original document was not meant to be circulated outside of some hidden circle (like it was the case, for instance, with the Copper Scroll of Qumran, which also has a similar structure) or the whole document is codified in such a manner as to prevent easy extrapolation from the casual reader lacking the necessary "keys" (for instance, the text continuously makes reference to certain rituals that need to be performed in order to open doors or find the entrance to some hidden vaults)

Of course there is also the possibility that the whole is an entirely fictional list of treasures with the sole purpose of deceiving the most credulous.
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#14    kmt_sesh

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:11 AM

View PostDark_Lord, on 10 August 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Thanks Kmt_Sesh!
Are you aware of any traditions relating to a sacred tree (most certainly a Sycamore) associated with Hathor in the region of Dahshur or Fayyium? I see that Hathor sometimes receives the appellative of "Mistress of the Sycamore" or "Mystress of the Southern Sycamore". Was there any cultus place, Perhaps in hellenistic or Roman times, associated with a Tree-cult of Hathor in Lower Egypt or close to the Memphite necropolis?

"Mistress of the Sycamore" was only one of numerous epithets and titles Hathor possessed. It was in fact more prominent in the Memphis region from early times. It wasn't her most dominant role as a goddess, to be sure, but in this guise she was believed to provide shelter and sustenance to the deceased.

So Memphis was indeed an important area for her veneration, from at least the Old Kingdom. I can't think of any unusually prominent shrines or temples for her in the Dashur area, or in the Fayum for that matter. But Hathor was worshiped in shrines and temples all over Egypt, especially at sites like Gebelein and Deir el Medina. However, the most important temple to have survived specially for her worship is of course Dendera. This is quite near Hiw and Abydos and only a short distance north of Karnak, so it's an Upper Egyptian (southern) temple. It dates to the Ptolemaic Period and was used through the Roman Period, but excavations of the area, as I recall, show levels of temples going back to around the time of the Old Kingdom.

I can't think of any sort of "tree cult," per se. The sycamore was simply one of her emblems. More important to the necropolis setting was her guise as Mistress of the West, but in a way Mistress of the Sycamore ties into this title, too.
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