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Humans in SE Europe were of a different sort


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#16    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:33 AM

View Postthe L, on 09 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I would rather choose Vindija cave instead.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Vindija_Cave

Choose both and add some loyalty to the heritage you claim you belong to.
(Balkan Croatia? Really? Genetically separated from the West Europe? Why would anyone want that hilariousness to be true?)

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#17    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:58 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 09 February 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Choose both and add some loyalty to the heritage you claim you belong to.

View Postthe L, on 09 February 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

That was a me out of order.


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#18    ouija ouija

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 05:31 PM

Was this meant to be a comedy thread? :whistle: :lol: :P

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#19    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

Probably not, but since it turned that way, you might as well visualize us beating each other with Pleistocene bones over our respective heads :D

The finding from the article is interesting, but to be honest the way Pleistocene (!) can be sensitive issue for south-east Europe is even more interesting. I deliberately avoid the word "Balkan" or I'll go ballistic again.

On a little bit more serious note, it turns out the populations today are mixed, due to migrations, but - to surprise of no one sane - the "original" genomes are still present. In other words, old populations, Illyrians for example, didn't evaporate, they simply became part of new social construct together with the newcomers.
I can't tell you how amused I'll be when genetic screening becomes cheaper and reliable genetic maps leak out. It will literally destroy the current politics in SE Europe.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 09 February 2013 - 06:22 PM.

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#20    cormac mac airt

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 09 February 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Probably not, but since it turned that way, you might as well visualize us beating each other with Pleistocene bones over our respective heads :D

The finding from the article is interesting, but to be honest the way Pleistocene (!) can be sensitive issue for south-east Europe is even more interesting. I deliberately avoid the word "Balkan" or I'll go ballistic again.

On a little bit more serious note, it turns out the populations today are mixed, due to migrations, but - to surprise of no one sane - the "original" genomes are still present. In other words, old populations, Illyrians for example, didn't evaporate, they simply became part of new social construct together with the newcomers.
I can't tell you how amused I'll be when genetic screening becomes cheaper and reliable genetic maps leak out. It will literally destroy the current politics in SE Europe.

Politicians won't care about genetic maps unless they can put their own spin on what it all means. The article itself is only saying that whatever line of human the BH-1 remains belonged to, it wasn't likely Neanderthal, but apparently not us (HSS) either.  So possibly either Homo heidelbergensis before a split (if true) into Neanderthals and Homo sapiens or (unmentioned in the article) a member of Homo erectus or some other as yet unknown human line. None of which is going to help in making southeast Europe, specifically, in any way special where we (Homo sapiens) are concerned. The timeframe is well before we existed. As to the genomes you're referring to, it should be pointed out that they only apply to AMH/Homo sapiens sapiens from no further back than c.40,500 BP. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the timeframe from the article, circa 397,000 to 525,000 BP.

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#21    coolguy

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:40 AM

I guess they where driffent human race


#22    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:21 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 10 February 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

Politicians won't care about genetic maps unless they can put their own spin on what it all means. The article itself is only saying that whatever line of human the BH-1 remains belonged to, it wasn't likely Neanderthal, but apparently not us (HSS) either.  So possibly either Homo heidelbergensis before a split (if true) into Neanderthals and Homo sapiens or (unmentioned in the article) a member of Homo erectus or some other as yet unknown human line. None of which is going to help in making southeast Europe, specifically, in any way special where we (Homo sapiens) are concerned. The timeframe is well before we existed. As to the genomes you're referring to, it should be pointed out that they only apply to AMH/Homo sapiens sapiens from no further back than c.40,500 BP. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the timeframe from the article, circa 397,000 to 525,000 BP.

cormac


Maybe I wasn’t clear enough:
The very reason why I chose to post in this thread was linking Pleistocene finding from the OP to contemporary gene situation.
But your post will be useful to guys from the page 1.

Politicians in south-east Europe are scared ****less of possible objective generic maps, because you can hardly spin the fact that you’re not genetically different than your enemy, that populations in certain areas share more than mutual animosity, that modern national borders don't match genetic distribution etc. but it's all - thank god for small favours - off-topic.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 10 February 2013 - 01:23 PM.

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#23    Abramelin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:32 PM

L, this thread makes me think of this post of mine:

View PostAbramelin, on 06 December 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. Haplogroup I-M253 has been estimated to be some 15,000 years old. It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.

http://en.wikipedia....roup_I1_(Y-DNA)

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http://en.wikipedia....group_I_(Y-DNA)

Denmark? It could have been all over Doggerland at that time.


http://www.unexplain...c=179840&st=825


I had the idea the survivors of the flooding of Doggerland may have fled along the Rhine and Danube to the Balkan, but that must have happened around 8150 BP/6150 BCE.

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 February 2013 - 02:45 PM.


#24    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:45 PM

From Doggerland trough Danube to Black sea. I saw your post earlier in other thread. Its interesting. But didnt know what to say. Maybe we would found more genetic evidence on shores of Black sea if it wasnt Black sea flooded. Maybe they were more people there. Then run. Of all flood theories Doggerland, Med, Sunderland, Black sea, meteors every 1000 years theory by 6 scientists I must say that Doggerland is among most interesting ones.

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#25    Abramelin

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

View Postthe L, on 11 February 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

From Doggerland trough Danube to Black sea. I saw your post earlier in other thread. Its interesting. But didnt know what to say. Maybe we would found more genetic evidence on shores of Black sea if it wasnt Black sea flooded. Maybe they were more people there. Then run. Of all flood theories Doggerland, Med, Sunderland, Black sea, meteors every 1000 years theory by 6 scientists I must say that Doggerland is among most interesting ones.

The Black Sea event wasn't as catastrophic as was first thought, and it also happened much earlier:

According to a study by Giosan et al. the level in the Black Sea before the marine reconnection was 30 m below present sea level, rather than the 80 m, or lower, of the catastrophe theories. If the flood occurred at all, the sea level increase and the flooded area during the reconnection were significantly smaller than previously proposed. It also occurred earlier than initially surmised, ca. 7400 BC, rather than the originally proposed 5600 BC. Since the depth of the Bosporus, in its middle furrow, at present varies from 36 to 124 m, with an average depth of 65 m, a calculated stone age shoreline in the Black Sea lying 30 m lower than in the present day would imply that the contact with the Mediterranean may never have been broken during the Holocene, and hence that there could have been no sudden waterfall-style transgression.

A new study based on process length variation of the dinoflagellate cyst Lingulodinium machaerophorum shows no evidence for catastrophic flooding.

http://en.wikipedia....luge_hypothesis

The people living near the Black Sea didn't have to run for the hills.

The Med flooded some 5.3 millions of years ago, when the Atlantic breached through what is now the Strait of Gibraltar:

http://en.wikipedia..../Zanclean_flood

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 February 2013 - 12:44 PM.


#26    Whitedog333

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:55 PM

Actually, the Latest findings, announced a few weeks ago, show that the Neandertals died out as a species much earlier than previously and erroneously thought. the overlap of the two species within that geographical area was minimal at best and so idea of Neandertal DNA being dispersed within the Cromagnon bloodline is now thought to be extremely mimimal, if at all. So Cromagnon was essentialy isolated. Of course later, the DNA was mixed with that of peole migrating in from elswhere. I think that it is the Basque who are so far found to be of the oldest bloodline within Europe.


#27    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostWhitedog333, on 20 February 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Actually, the Latest findings, announced a few weeks ago, show that the Neandertals died out as a species much earlier than previously and erroneously thought. the overlap of the two species within that geographical area was minimal at best and so idea of Neandertal DNA being dispersed within the Cromagnon bloodline is now thought to be extremely mimimal, if at all. So Cromagnon was essentialy isolated. Of course later, the DNA was mixed with that of peole migrating in from elswhere. I think that it is the Basque who are so far found to be of the oldest bloodline within Europe.

That change from month to month.

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#28    Nenaraz

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:49 AM

Why is there not even a slight mention of Vinca (veen-cha)?

http://www.omniglot....iting/vinca.htm




#29    coolguy

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 04:02 AM

So this jaw bone had had no Neanderthal characteristics.so maybe homosapens humans are older then frist though






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