116 replies to this topic

[docyabut2]

Don`t know why that post did`nt come through



Now the city( athens) in those days was arranged on this wise. In the first place the Acropolis was not as now. For the fact is that a single night of excessive rain washed away the earth and laid bare the rock; at the same time there were earthquakes, and then occurred the extraordinary <a name="199">inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion.

[the L]

I feel like I say something wrong...or something smart that people dont know what to say...

Anyway, to add on Puzzler theory.


Panathenaea most famous festival in ancient Athens. One of reasons of celebration was gloryfing Athens in defeating Poseidon people (Atlantis).
Fact that celebration was celebrated before Plato prooves that he didnt invent story.

Edited by the L, 30 November 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Harte]

the L, on 30 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

I feel like I say something wrong...or something smart that people dont know what to say...

Anyway, to add on Puzzler theory.


Panathenaea most famous festival in ancient Athens. One of reasons of celebration was gloryfing Athens in defeating Poseidon people (Atlantis).
Fact that celebration was celebrated before Plato prooves that he didnt invent story.

As the name implies, it was a celebration in honor of Athena.
Here and Here

There was a Poseidon angle.  It was a boat race during the festival that honored Poseidon.

Nothing about "defeating Poseidon's people" that I can find.

Poseidon didn't have "people," AFAIK.

Harte

[The Puzzler]

docyabut2, on 26 November 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

As much as I have defended Atlantis as the lost city of Tartessos, I have to admit it could have been Thera and Crete. Thera expoled between 17th to 15th century bc , just at the time the kings Cecrops ect, of the war in the tale of atlantis of Athens were said have existed.


And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon.

King Cecrops ₁ of Athens. 1582

http://www.forumanci...Chronology.html

Imo, this is when the story of Atlantis must be placed, regardless of the timeframe of 9000 years ago given. I traced a few of these names to the contest between Athena and Poseidon on the Acropolis and the preceding myth, the War between Athens and Eleusis. All things Eleusian have Poseidon's stamp all over them.

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 December 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Harte, on 30 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

As the name implies, it was a celebration in honor of Athena.
Here and Here

There was a Poseidon angle.  It was a boat race during the festival that honored Poseidon.

Nothing about "defeating Poseidon's people" that I can find.

Poseidon didn't have "people," AFAIK.

Harte

Poseidons 'people' would be worshippers of Poseidon over other Gods, such as Zeus and Athena.
Example from Wiki:

The name of the sea-god Nethuns in Etruscan was adopted in Latin for Neptune in Roman mythology; both were sea gods analogous to Poseidon. Linear B tablets show that Poseidon was venerated at Pylos and Thebes in pre-Olympian Bronze Age Greece as a chief deity, but he was integrated into the Olympian gods as the brother of Zeus and Hades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon

Pylos and Thebes for starters, Poseidon had 'people'. They went down in pre-Olympian Bronze Age Greece.

There is a Homeric hymn to Poseidon, who was the protector of many Hellenic cities, although he lost the contest for Athens to Athena.

I'm not saying that i know about any celebration but you can't deny Poseidon had 'people'.

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 December 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[The Puzzler]

the L, on 30 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

I feel like I say something wrong...or something smart that people dont know what to say...

Anyway, to add on Puzzler theory.


Panathenaea most famous festival in ancient Athens. One of reasons of celebration was gloryfing Athens in defeating Poseidon people (Atlantis).
Fact that celebration was celebrated before Plato prooves that he didnt invent story.

Thanks L and thanks also for all the interesting pictures and comparisons.

Sure seems to me Libyans were in Crete and even Thera into Greece, Athenians were Pelasgians, they might have even been Libyan/Therans and headed to the mainland when they evacuated Thera prior to the eruption or even after but somehow Athena has arrived into Greece from Crete after being bought in from Libya, as Plato thought.

[The Puzzler]

The problem is, people think Poseidon didn't exist until the Olympian Gods, but he was around way before, complete with many 'people'...so it's hard to know exactly what was going on with him prior to the written myths.

The earliest attested occurrence of the name, written in Linear B, is Po-se-da-o or Po-se-da-wo-ne, which correspond to Poseidaōn and Poseidawonos in Mycenean Greek; in Homeric Greek it appears as Ποσειδάων (Poseidaōn); in Aeolic as Ποτειδάων (Poteidaōn); and in Doric as Ποτειδάν (Poteidan), Ποτειδάων (Poteidaōn), and Ποτειδᾶς (Poteidas).^[8] A common epithet of Poseidon is Γαιήοχος Gaiēochos, "Earth-shaker," an epithet which is also identified in Linear B tablets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon


Poseidon has twin sons with Libya and from this comes Danaus line, Ascrisus and Danae, then Perseus.

Even a cautious reading of the subtext as a vehicle for legendary history suggests that a Pelasgian kingship in archaic Argos was overcome, not without violence, by seafarers out of Egypt (compare the Sea Peoples), whose leaders then intermarried with the local dynasty. The descendants of Danaus' "blameless" daughter Hypermnestra, through Danaë, led to Perseus, founder of Mycenae, thus suggesting that Argos had a claim to be the "mother city" of Mycenae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus



Cecrops might not have been Egyptian but a Libyan/West African - Serer priestly type, complete with accompanying snake spirits and laws, via Crete again.

Erichthonius the snake...

When he grew up, Erichthonius drove out Amphictyon, who had usurped the throne from Cranaus twelve years earlier, and became king of Athens. He married Praxithea, a naiad, and had a son, Pandion I. During this time, Athena frequently protected him. He founded the Panathenaic Festival in the honor of Athena, and set up a wooden statue of her on the Acropolis. According to the Parian Chronicle, he taught his people to yoke horses and use them to pull chariots, to smelt silver, and to till the earth with a plough. It was said that Erichthonius was lame of his feet and that he consequently invented the quadriga, or four-horse chariot to get around easier. He is said to have competed often as a chariot driver in games. Zeus was said to have been so impressed with his skill that he raised him to the heavens to become the constellation of the Charioteer (Auriga) after his death.
Ericthonius was succeeded by his son Pandion I. The snake is his symbol, and he is represented in the statue of Athena in the Parthenon as the snake hidden behind her shield.
http://en.wikipedia....onius_of_Athens

http://en.wikipedia....onius_of_Athens

But the most interesting one is Erechtheus, a doublet of Poseidon:


Erechtheus (/ɨˈrɛkθiəs/; Greek: Ἐρεχθεύς) in Greek mythology was the name of an archaic king of Athens, the re-founder of the polis and a double at Athens for Poseidon, as "Poseidon Erechtheus". A mythic Erechtheus and an Erechtheus given a human genealogy and set in a historicizing context—if they ever were really distinguished by Athenians—were harmonized as one in Euripides' lost tragedy Erechtheus, (423/22 BCE) . The name Erichthonius is carried by a son of Erechtheus, but Plutarch conflated the two names in the myth of the begetting of Erechtheus.^[1]
Athenians thought of themselves as Erechtheidai, the "sons of Erechtheus".^[2] In Homer's Iliad (2. 547–48) he is the son of "grain-giving Earth", reared by Athena.^[3] The earth-born son was sired by Hephaestus, whose semen Athena wiped from her thigh with a fillet of wool cast to earth, by which Gaia was made pregnant.
In the contest for patronship of Athens between Poseidon and Athena, the salt spring on the Acropolis where Poseidon's trident struck was known as the sea of Erechtheus
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Erechtheus

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 December 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[The Puzzler]

This is Erechtheus II: (Eumolpus is a son of Poseidon)

The war with Eleusis
His reign was marked by the war between Athens and Eleusis, when the Eleusinians were commanded by Eumolpus, coming from Thrace. An oracle declared that Athens' survival depended on the death one of the three daughters of Erechtheus. Perhaps three unmarried daughters is meant. But in one version it is Chthonia who is sacrificed. In another both Protogeneia and Pandora, the two eldest, offer themselves up. In any case the remaining sisters (excepting Orithyia who had been kidnapped by Boreas), or at least some of them, are said to kill themselves. The story of the unfortunate daughters of Erechtheus is comparable to those of the daughters of Hyacinthus of Lacedaemon, and of the daughters of Leos.
In the following battle between the forces of Athens and Eleusis, Erechtheus won the battle and slew Eumolpus, but then himself fell, struck down by Poseidon's trident;^[9] according to fragments of Euripides' tragedy Erechtheus.Poseidon avenged his son Eumolpus' death by driving him into the earth with blows of his trident,^[10]
The ending lines of Euripides' tragedy were recovered in 1965 from a papyrus fragment.^[11] They demonstrate for Walter Burkert^[12] that "the founding of the Erechtheum and the institution of the priestess of Athena coincide." Athena resolves the action by instructing Erichtheus' widow Praxithea:

...and for your husband I command a shrine to be constructed in the middle of the city; he will be known for him who killed him, under the name of 'sacred Poseidon'; but among the citizens, when the sacrificial cattle are slaughtered, he shall also be called 'Erechtheus'. To you, however, since you have rebuilt the city's foundations,^[13] I grant the duty of bringing in the preliminary fire-sacrifices for the city, and to be called my priestess.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Erechtheus

[The Puzzler]

docyabut2, on 25 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

Just about everything in the of Atlantis tale  points to the islands of Crete and Thera, but one red hering. When the egyptain priest said- And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelos in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeiros,--which fact may have given its title to the country.


Now the priest was speaking of now as being in the 6th century bc when the tale was told to Solon,  so if the pillers were at Rhodes, where was this country then called Gaderia in the Agean sea?


Was it Melos? and where was the pillars?


http://0.tqn.com/d/a...pherd-c-004.jpg

It's a tricky one.

I don't think position can be compromised personally geographically, he meant the Atlantis Sea, as called by Herodotus, Gadeira, meaning Gades, the Pillars of Heracles meaning Gibraltar area.

However, I do think it's possible, using Plato's ideas of a cyclic occurance, that he has layered them on top of each other and that Crete may represent an Atlantis people too, part of the ones who had come into the Med. and subdued the populations, maybe being the rise of Cretan culture prior to the eruption.

Now, Plato says NOTHING about an eruption, which you think he would, if Thera was meant - the people however, left before the eruption, so archaeology tells us, which means, the inhabitants of Thera may have only known about a huge earthquake that generated a Flood, then they left, having no knowledge of the fate their island later suffered - then i guess, seeing fallout and such int he water and changes wouldhav eled to many stories being generated about a clash of Gods or something...

So, we have an island that seems reasonable to be Atlantis except for a couple of major points, no eruption on Atlantis and wrong place. But we have a philosopher who could see the Therans as Atlanteans and Thera as a 3rd Atlantis but knowing that the original of them is found outside the Pillars, their place of origin - a 1st Atlantis, each time rebuilding to a same point before being destructed. 3rd flood before the only one they remember - which one would that be?

He's investigating in the philosophies how Laws came about.

Ive pasted this a few times but it really says how Plato feels about the cycle thing and he references Troy in an uncannily similar way to Atlantis (fair plain, hill)

I'd love to copy paste the whole thing but I won't (the 2nd part has pasted badly but read it yourself from the link I gave)... Plato - The Laws

Cleinias. What do you mean?
Ath. I mean that he might watch them from the point of view

Cle. How so?
Ath. Why, do you think that you can reckon the time which has

Cle. Hardly.
Ath. But are sure that it must be vast and
Ath. And have not thousands and thousands of cities come into being during this period and as many perished? And has not each of them

Cle. To be sure.
Ath. Let us endeavour to ascertain the cause of these changes;

Cle. Very good. You shall endeavour to impart your thoughts to us, and we will make an effort to understand you.
Cle. What traditions?
Ath. The traditions about the many destructions of mankind which

Cle. Every one is disposed to believe them.

Cle. What are we to observe about it?
Ath. I mean to say that those who then escaped would only be

Cle. Clearly.
Ath. Such survivors would necessarily be unacquainted with the one another.

Cle. Very true.

Cle. Very good.
Ath. Would not all implements have then perished and every other


------------------------------


Yes, that would be the natural order of things. concur.

Cle. What is that? Dardania:

For not as yet had the holy Ilium been built on the plain to be he speaks the words of God and nature; for poets are a divine race and often in their strains, by the aid of the Muses and the Graces, they attain
Ath. Then now let us proceed with the rest of our tale, which will probably be found to illustrate in some degree our proposed design:-Shall

Ath. Ilium was built, when they descended from the mountain, in a large and fair plain, on a sort of low hill, watered by many rivers

Ath. And we must suppose this event to have taken place many ages after the deluge? under numerous streams flowing from the heights, trusting for their security to not very high hills, either.
Ath. And, as population increased, many other cities would begin to be inhabited. at that time men were ceasing to be afraid of the sea.

Cle. Clearly. http://classics.mit....laws.3.iii.html

Edited by The Puzzler, 01 December 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[the L]

Harte, on 30 November 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

As the name implies, it was a celebration in honor of Athena.
Here and Here

There was a Poseidon angle.  It was a boat race during the festival that honored Poseidon.

Nothing about "defeating Poseidon's people" that I can find.

Poseidon didn't have "people," AFAIK.

Harte

I read it in several books that it was celebration over Poseidon. Last book that I read that was by sceptic Joel Levy "Lost histories".

[the L]

The Puzzler, on 01 December 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Thanks L and thanks also for all the interesting pictures and comparisons.

Sure seems to me Libyans were in Crete and even Thera into Greece, Athenians were Pelasgians, they might have even been Libyan/Therans and headed to the mainland when they evacuated Thera prior to the eruption or even after but somehow Athena has arrived into Greece from Crete after being bought in from Libya, as Plato thought.

Sure. Read my next post about bull rituals and about twin brother.

Edited by the L, 02 December 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[the L]

Story was written on walls on temple Sias. Anyway interesting locations were Spartel and Tantalis but I will continue with Atlas region (Son of Poseidon). We see prehistory as empty time when people didnt have rich history although we know that todays anatomicly human exist atleast 100 000 years. And people with language, religion and art skills exists atleast 40 000 years. So what people were doing to 10 000 BC? Isnt logic to think that history happened all time. That civilization rise and fell?
Ammianus Marcellinus wrote that for educated people of his time Atlantis was consider to be historical fact. Something like Helike I guess.
Minoans have Bull rituals and Plato wrote about Atlantis rituals with Bulls. Keftiu was Egyptian name for Minoans which means people of columns,pillars.
There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription.

We can extract many interesting conclusions on names such as Evenor, Leucippe, Cleito. Anyway Im short on time and theme is big.

Atlas twin brother ruled Atlantis to
„…towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.“

Isnt this more then enoguh? Cadiz? But I will continued.

„…they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.“

Country with Pillars to Egypt adn Tyrrhenia. Now whats north and east of Libya? Etruscan sea and Egypt.

„Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island.“

Africa have elephants.

They have temples dedicated to Poseidon and Cleito. Temple have „strange barbaric appearance.“ But their architecture was simple also simple. I guess homes of people.

„Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. „

In Poseidon temple there was also statues of 10 kings. Also Nereids riding dolphins.
Lets hear what Plato have to say about other parts of Atlantis

„…. The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work….“


Lets hear about their laws, society, state of mind.


"…the kings were gathered together every fifth and every sixth year alternately, thus giving equal honour to the odd and to the even number…."

It reminds me to Iceland Godars. Who wants I can bring more info. Anyway 5 or 6 years seems to me is big time gap to things went wrong. Could it be that they gather every 6 months?  That way 9000 years are 9000 months and that means 750 years.

"They were not to take up arms against one another, and they were all to come to the rescue if any one in any of their cities attempted to overthrow the royal house; like their ancestors, they were to deliberate in common about war and other matters, giving the supremacy to the descendants of Atlas. And the king was not to have the power of life and death over any of his kinsmen unless he had the assent of the majority of the ten."


King didnt have order to execute Atlantean unless majority of 10 kings say so. Democracy?


"They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; "


They were spiritual advanced civilization which get corrupted. Become greedy and ruined themselves.

"when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, ….. And when he (Zeus) had called them together, he spake as follows-"


Rest is lost.
Also as I wrote elsewhere, Proclus (5century) in his writting criticism on Timaeus wrote that others too saw Egyptian from which story of Atlantis was passed to Greeks.  So we have witness account, therefore Plato probably told the truth.

To me this sum of data is more then enough.

[the L]

Proclus in his Commentary on Timaeus called Atlanteans Atlantics. He used term Atlantic sea and for people Antlantics.
He spoke about war with Atlantics and Athenians.

He also quote Plato:




"...this island was greater than both Libya and Asia together, and aflbrdcd
an easy passage to other neighbouring islands ; as it was likewise easy to
pass from those islands to all the opposite continent which surrounded
that true sea."

I dont remember Plato saying that. Maybe Im wrong. So you can pass from Islands to continent. Peninsula? What surround great sea? West Africa?


Furthermore:


Such also is the Titanic
order with the Gods lo which Atlas belongs. And the first of these ten kings
was called Alias, and as it is said in the Atlauticiis gave the name to ilio
island. The summits, therefore, of the second co-ordination, are adorned
indeed by the Olympian Gods, of whom Minerva is the leader ; but they
snhdue the whole of the essence which is subordinate to the Gods, but ter
minates in the worse co-ordination; such as the essence of irrational souls,
of material masses, and of matter itself.




For, according to Heraclilns, he who passes through a region very difficult
of access, will arrive at the Atlantic, mountain, the magnitude of which is said to
be so great by the Kthiopic historians, that it reaches to the a-thcr, and sends forth
a shadow as far as to live thousand stadia. For tin- sun is concealed by it from
the ninth hour of the day till it entirely sets. Nor is this at all wonderful. For.
Athos, a Macedonian mountain, emits a shadow as fur as to Lcmnos, which is
distant from it seven hundred stadia. And Marcellus, who wrote the Ethiopic
history, not only relates that the Atlantic mountain was of such a great height,

Kthiopic historians? Ethiopic? Whos Marcellus? Where is that Ethiopic history? I didnt knew that early Ethiopics had such rich history so that they have had Historians.

[the L]

Remember that Diodorus wrote that Amazon marsh was in west bordering with Ethiopians.



(Gk. Aithiops, perhaps from aithein "to burn" + ops "face" (cf. aithops "fiery-looking," later "sunburned")

This way too much.

Edited by the L, 02 December 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[Bluefinger]

freetoroam, on 15 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

why do some people insist on cutting and pasting half of Amazon?
Anyway, its seems plato was the first to mention it. the  Atlantis sea does not nessarily mean it contained a land called Atlantis. IE: the Red sea - is not named after an island called RED.

Unfair response, IMO.  The Red Sea was called thus because of the direction it represented; i.e.  Black Sea, Yellow Sea, etc.