4102 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 01 December 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

etymonline.com/ditch
ditch (n.)
O.E. dic "ditch, dike," a variant of dike (q.v.). Last ditch (1715) refers to the last line of military defenses.

edit: OK now I understand that your answer was for VG, not me.

good night

My answer was for you, and that's why I quoted you.

Good night to you too.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 01 December 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[Otharus]

I agree with VG dat "dik" may be related as well.

dik = thick ~ dikke dijk = thick dike
dicht (closed) ~ dichte dijk = closed dijk
tjokvol = chock-a-block, chock-full, chuck-full, choke-full

[NO-ID-EA]

I Know this is just playing around with word puzzles again !.........But did anyone also notice the similarity of the word Bursztyn  ( where U is often substituted for Y ) to BYRSZ(an)TYN , maybe Byzantine .

Also the other word gyanta , being a possible Phoenician word , and the greek myths that Britain was inhabited by Giants (miss-translation ??) could these same gyanta be the Phoenicians here for Tin and Amber.


there are a couple of mentions that amber was much more abundant here and that it was just burned on fires, i am only guessing but could this be what was used to burn in the sacred lamps , maybe amber gives off light but not much heat ??........it would give off the pleasant pine aroma......and texts about the medical properties of amber say that it was used as a cure all for stomach, intestinal and digestive complaints, could it be that it was inhaled from the lamp fumes , and was therefore thought to be a holy fire.


the other words being close to janitor , meaning door-keeper or caretaker , could this word also be applicable to the Ottoman Janisaries , a title of door keeper or bodyguard may suit them well , and the N.W. Europeans seem to have had a reputation for fighting for the highest bidder , even in some cases you get the impression that this was acceptible to them even if it meant they were on opposite sides to their countrymen .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 02 December 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 01 December 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

What I am trying to say here is that there are enough clues that Phoenicians and Miinoans/Mycenians visited the coasts of the North Sea and the Baltic.

Linguistic clues and archeological artifacts.


But what I have never posted before, and keeps bugging my mind is this:

When I was in my teens, I once read either a newspaper article or some book, that flatly stated that the typical Dutch word "dijk" ("dike" in English) came from the Phoenician language.

I have tried to find the source for that idea for many years now, but failed to find it.

And you can bet I remember that well: I have always been quite fanatic concerning ancient sailors traveling the seas.

.

It took me a day, but I think I found it:

The Word: The Dictionary That Reveals the Hebrew Source of English
Isaac E. Mozeson

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Yeah, I know......but it's about the Hebrew language, not about the rest of that crap site.




The Hebrew word appears to be "Däyäk", and forget the bull about 'digging dogs' and so on.

From DÄ-YÄK to DIJK seems natural, but not from DIJK to DÄYÄK,  so no "Fryans" gave the Phoenicians/Hebrews that word.

"Siege-wall, bulwark or rampart"... Dike?


How about "money"?

Ezekiel 45:12 And the shekel shall be twenty gerahs: twenty shekels, five and twenty shekels, fifteen shekels, shall be your maneh.


Market?

Hebrew/Phoenician "mikher", later in Latin "mercari" or 'to pay a price', Samuel 24:24


Mystery? (Jeremia 13:17)

"Mestar" means 'a secret place' in Hebrew.


Europe?

Erev, the "west" or "evening" in Hebrew.

In Assyrian there is the land of "Ereb", or "Setting Sun Land.".

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 02 December 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I Know this is just playing around with word puzzles again !.........But did anyone also notice the similarity of the word Bursztyn  ( where U is often substituted for Y ) to BYRSZ(an)TYN , maybe Byzantine .

Also the other word gyanta , being a possible Phoenician word , and the greek myths that Britain was inhabited by Giants (miss-translation ??) could these same gyanta be the Phoenicians here for Tin and Amber.


there are a couple of mentions that amber was much more abundant here and that it was just burned on fires, i am only guessing but could this be what was used to burn in the sacred lamps , maybe amber gives off light but not much heat ??........it would give off the pleasant pine aroma......and texts about the medical properties of amber say that it was used as a cure all for stomach, intestinal and digestive complaints, could it be that it was inhaled from the lamp fumes , and was therefore thought to be a holy fire.


the other words being close to janitor , meaning door-keeper or caretaker , could this word also be applicable to the Ottoman Janisaries , a title of door keeper or bodyguard may suit them well , and the N.W. Europeans seem to have had a reputation for fighting for the highest bidder , even in some cases you get the impression that this was acceptible to them even if it meant they were on opposite sides to their countrymen .

The alternative word for amber, "bursztyn" is nothing but an adaptation of the German word "bernstein" (or DU: barnsteen), and means "burn stone". It was indeed not only used for its beauty but also because it could burn and gave off a pleasant scent. But I have never set light to amber ( I have a piece) to discover how long it burns when lit, lol.

=

Giants.... wasn't that nothing but a legend to explain all those megalithic structures in Britain?

=

And like I said (lol) I already regretted bringing up "janitor" because it obviously has nothing to do with anything amber.

[NO-ID-EA]

Abramelin, on 03 December 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

The alternative word for amber, "bursztyn" is nothing but an adaptation of the German word "bernstein" (or DU: barnsteen), and means "burn stone". It was indeed not only used for its beauty but also because it could burn and gave off a pleasant scent. But I have never set light to amber ( I have a piece) to discover how long it burns when lit, lol.

=

Giants.... wasn't that nothing but a legend to explain all those megalithic structures in Britain?

=

And like I said (lol) I already regretted bringing up "janitor" because it obviously has nothing to do with anything amber.

Ok maybe Byzantine from Bursztyn was a bit far out , but it looked pretty close to me , i have read Byzantine is a modern word attatched to this part of history , what does it mean then ? and when and why was it given ??

I doubt many people have burnt Amber lately, i  wondered if when it burned it gave off only a cool heat , most of the myths refer to a flame or a light that did not burn , but was pure , or could purify , ......if it was not hot it could be the flame people or babies were passed through .... the fire of Molock

re the Gyanta....... that was what i was saying someone may have read old texts about Britain that were refering to amber ,and miss-translated the word as giants , and from there the myth grew and stuck............... if you say something often enough it becomes the truth ! where have i heard that before ?


re the doorkeeper ... i guess i do not understand your sense of humour yet !

[TheHangedMan]

NO-ID-EA, on 04 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

re the Gyanta

The beginning of Okko Scarlensis "Frisian Chronicle":

~ Beminde Lezer/
ik hebbe by onze Voorvaders beschreven gevonden/
dat na des Weerelds Scheppinge drie duizend en 't zeventig Jaar
hier aan Land zyn gekomen/
een zonderling groot/ ongeschikt/ en onbehelpelyk volk/
dat men Gyganten ofte Reuzen noemde/
die verjaagt waren uit het Eiland Albyon/
't welk men nu Engeland noemt.

=

Beloved reader/
I have found described by our ancestors/
that after the World's creation 3070 years
have come ashore here
an oddly great, uncivilised and helpless (?) people/
that were called Gyganten or 'reuzen' (giants)/
that were chased away from the island Albyon/
which is now named Engeland.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, not long ago, said that one of the (main) reasons the OLB was and is being suppressed is because it was and is being associated with Nazism/Ahnenerbe. But it is also known that these same Nazis eventually rejected the OLB as a hoax/fabrication, so that kite won't fly.

The main reasons it was not accepted ( = NOT suppressed) had to do with the language used in the OLB, plus the 'alternative' history portrayed in it.

Now, if the two of you are going to continue posting how much these Nazis 'loved' the OLB (initially), you only reinforce that image of the OLB being a Nazi Bible.

=


Muller and Smidt came to a conclusion the believers in the OLB don't like, but that doesn't make them liars. Same with Beckering Vinckers.

[Abramelin]

TheHangedMan, on 04 December 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

The beginning of Okko Scarlensis "Frisian Chronicle":

~ Beminde Lezer/
ik hebbe by onze Voorvaders beschreven gevonden/
dat na des Weerelds Scheppinge drie duizend en 't zeventig Jaar
hier aan Land zyn gekomen/
een zonderling groot/ ongeschikt/ en onbehelpelyk volk/
dat men Gyganten ofte Reuzen noemde/
die verjaagt waren uit het Eiland Albyon/
't welk men nu Engeland noemt.

=

Beloved reader/
I have found described by our ancestors/
that after the World's creation 3070 years
have come ashore here
an oddly great, uncivilised and helpless (?) people/
that were called Gyganten or 'reuzen' (giants)/
that were chased away from the island Albyon/
which is now named Engeland.

In the mythical story of the founding of Britain, Albion was a Giant son of Poseidon, the Greek god of the sea. He was a contemporary of Heracles, who killed him. Albion founded a country on the island and ruled there. Britain, then called Albion after its founder, was inhabited by his Giant descendants until about 1100 years before Julius Cæsar's invasion of Britain, when Brutus of Troy came and defeated the small number of Giants that remained (as a group of the Giants had killed all the others).

http://en.wikipedia..../Albion_(Blake)


In Greek mythology, Alebion or Albion (Ancient Greek: Ἀλεβίων or Ἀλβίων) was a son of Poseidon and brother of Bergion (also known as Dercynus) who attacked Heracles with Dercynus when he passed through their country, Liguria in North-Western Italy, on his way back to Mycenae from Iberia having obtained the Cattle of Geryon as his tenth labour. The battle that followed was fierce; Albion and Dercynus or Bergion were supported by a numerous army. Hercules and his army were in a difficult position so he prayed to his father Zeus for help. With the aegis of Zeus, Heracles won the battle and both brothers were killed. It was this kneeling position of Heracles when prayed to his father Zeus that gave the name Engonasin (Ἐγγόνασιν, derived from ἐν γόνασιν), meaning "on his knees" or "the Kneeler" to Hercules' constellation. The Scholiast on Lycophron writes that the brother of Alebion was named Ligys. The story is also alluded to in Hyginus and Dionysius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alebion


According to the 12th century Historia Regum Britanniae ("The History of The Kings of Britain") by Geoffrey of Monmouth, the exiled Brutus of Troy was told by the goddess Diana;

    "Brutus! there lies beyond the Gallic bounds
    An island which the western sea surrounds,
    By giants once possessed, now few remain
    To bar thy entrance, or obstruct thy reign.
    To reach that happy shore thy sails employ
    There fate decrees to raise a second Troy
    And found an empire in thy royal line,
    Which time shall ne'er destroy, nor bounds confine".

After many adventures, Brutus and his fellow Trojans escape from Gaul and "set sail with a fair wind towards the promised island".

"The island was then called Albion, and inhabited by none but a few giants. Notwithstanding this, the pleasant situation of the places, the plenty of rivers abounding with fish, and the engaging prospect of its woods, made Brutus and his company very desirous to fix their habitation in it." After dividing up the island between themselves "at last Brutus called the island after his own name Britain, and his companions Britons; for by these means he desired to perpetuate the memory of his name". Geoffrey goes on to recount how the last of the giants are defeated, the largest one called Goëmagot is flung over a cliff by Corineus.

Because Geoffrey of Monmouth's work was regarded as fact until the late 17th century, the story appears in most early histories of Britain. Wace, Layamon, Raphael Holinshed, William Camden and John Milton repeat the legend and it appears in Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion



All this has nothing to do with the Phoenicians trading in amber, or them possibly having introduced their word for amber into Nordic languages. Well, unless you consider them to be 'giants', which is not very likely considering they came from the Med.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 04 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Ok maybe Byzantine from Bursztyn was a bit far out , but it looked pretty close to me , i have read Byzantine is a modern word attatched to this part of history , what does it mean then ? and when and why was it given ??

I doubt many people have burnt Amber lately, i  wondered if when it burned it gave off only a cool heat , most of the myths refer to a flame or a light that did not burn , but was pure , or could purify , ......if it was not hot it could be the flame people or babies were passed through .... the fire of Molock

re the Gyanta....... that was what i was saying someone may have read old texts about Britain that were refering to amber ,and miss-translated the word as giants , and from there the myth grew and stuck............... if you say something often enough it becomes the truth ! where have i heard that before ?


re the doorkeeper ... i guess i do not understand your sense of humour yet !

Byzantium (bih-ZAN-tee-uhm; Greek: Βυζάντιον, Byzántion; Latin: BYZANTIVM) was an ancient Greek city, founded by Greek colonists from Megara in 657 BC and named after their king Byzas (Greek: Βύζας, Býzas, genitive Βύζαντος, Býzantos).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium

==

As far as I have been able to find, the main if not only use for amber by people living around the Med and the Middle East was for jewelry and adornments. I don't think it is likely they bought it just to burn it in some temple because most thought of it as expensive and beautiful material. And certainly not amounts that would keep a fire burning for hours or days (or 'eternal'', like in those OLB 'foddiks'). True, it's possible, but not likely.

==

One can misinterpret a word, but if they had used "giants" instead of the correct "amber" in a sentence, the sentence and the story would become gobbledygook.

==

"if you say something often enough it becomes the truth ! where have i heard that before ?"

You heard it from Joseph Goebels.


==

My sense of humour? Lol, I only meant to say that I should not have brought up the word "janitor" because someone would start posting about it while it is obvious it has nothing to do with anything amber.

Btw: many place names in Britain and continental Europe have a name derived from the Germanic word for amber "Bernstein".

[TheHangedMan]

Abramelin, on 04 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

The main reasons it was not accepted ( = NOT suppressed) had to do with the language used in the OLB, plus the 'alternative' history portrayed in it.

Those were some of the official, explicit reasons, yes.
But have a good read of this article and try to read between the lines:

(First Dutch original, then English translation)

From Leeuwarder Courant 27-3-1934.

DUITSCHLAND EN HET OERA LINDA BÖK.
Duitsche critiek op Wirth.

Dr. Dresler, de leider van het rijkspersbureau der N.S.D.A.P. schrijft in het maandblad "Deutschland's Erneuerung" over de "Oera-Linda-Chronik" van dr. Herman Wirth, waaraan ook in de Leeuwarder Courant, naar men zich zal herinneren, eenige artikelen zijn gewijd.
Dr. Dresler schrijft o.a.: "Bij zijn aanvallen op de christelijke kerken laat de geleerde Wirth zich door den godsdienst-politicus Wirth op sleeptouw nemen. Voor de echtheid van het Oera-Linda-boek zijn deze aanvallen zeker geen overtuigende bewijzen, evenmin als de aanvallen van prof. Wirth op Wodan, dien hij als "Germaansch koning uit den tijd van verval" voorstelt en hem allerlei booze eigenschappen toedicht. Voegt men hierbij de vele uitvallen van Wirth tegen de "Edda", die ook al uit dien tijd van verval moet dagteekenen, dan moet men met verbazing constateeren, dat aan hetgeen wat tot dusver als Germaansch gold, eigenlijk geen zier goeds wordt gelaten.
"Ten slotte wensch ik op iets te wijzen, wat hoogst bedenkelijk is en niet scherp genoeg kan worden gewraakt. Prof. Wirth heeft zich aangesloten bij het streven om een werk, welks beteekenis allerminst wetenschappelijk vaststaat, in verband te brengen met de N.S.D.A.P. en met den persoon van Hitler. In zijn onderzoek naar het Germanisme is prof. Wirth steeds gesteund door de nat.-soc. pers. Daarom had hij het te meer moeten vermijden een zoo twijfelachtig werk als de Oera-Linda-Chronik in verband met de N.S.D.A.P. te brengen.

.

GERMANY AND THE OERA LINDA BOOK.
German criticism for Wirth

(partly paraphrased)
Dr. Dresler, leader of the NSDAP press-bureau, writes in a monthly magazine about Wirth's OLB:
"With his attacks at christian churches, the scholar Wirth is lead by the religion-politician Wirth. These attacks don't serve as proof for OLB's authenticity, neither are his attacks at Wodan, who he portrays as a "Germanic king from times of decline" and to whom he attributes various evil qualities. Add to that Wirth's many outbursts against the "Edda", that would also stem from times of decline, and one will be surprised to conclude that all that was so far considered to be Germanic, is not good in his opinion.
"Finally I point at something highly precarious which can not be revenged sharply enough. Prof. Wirth aims at connecting a book, which' authenticity is by no means scientifically accepted, to the NSDAP and to Hitler personally. In his Germanic research, Wirth has always been supported by the National-Socialist press. Therefore he should have avoided to connect such a questionable book with the NSDAP."

.

Some of my conclusions, but you may have other ones:

- Many Germanicists will not have liked how Wirth criticised Wodan and Edda.
- Many Christans obviously will have felt insulted too.
- If OLB was accepted as authentic, Wirth would have gotten too much influence, being the specialist, with very specific ideas, that were not always in favor of the Führer-cult. In the discussion-part of his book he pleeded for a return to a matriarchal culture.

Edited by TheHangedMan, 04 December 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[TheHangedMan]

Source: http://fryskednis.bl...ion-part-1.html

The following is taken from:

The Oera-Linda-Book in Germany and here
published by Dr. M. de Jong in 1939.

“When we don't limit our view to the controversies that kept us busy here in Holland, we must admit, that the OLB begot a significance because of the war in Germany, that no one ever could have dreamt of. In the spiritual revolution, that occurred there in the last decennia and is still unfolding, it played an important role. The OLB has been the highlight of passionate discussions about national-socialist principles and philosophy. A model for living and history, women’s place in society, democracy and authority, pacifism, the Slavic East front, racial theory and the Nordic race, even the Jewish question, were discussed. It’s a remarkable fact, that the OLB seems to appeal to profound feelings, that the German people have developped in their fight against alien influences and in favour of their own Germanic culture. Science had already succesfully resisted against the Christian-Latin historiographic image of old-Germanic civilisation’s inferiority and of the blessings brought to the supposed barbarians by the Romans and the Roman Catholic church. The aureole of great-christener Charles “the Great” faded away. People hoped to find traces of their own old civilisation, their own spiritual heritage, even an original Nordic monotheism.
This now, many believed to find, in the footsteps of Herman Wirth, together with lots of other ancestrial heritage, in the OLB, specifically in the so-called Wralda-mysticism.”

original dutch text:
Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier
“Wanneer wij onzen gezichtskring niet beperken tot de strijd-vragen, die ons hier in Nederland bezig gehouden hebben, dan zullen we moeten erkennen, dat het oera-Linda-Boek door den strijd in Duitschland een beteekenis heeft gekregen, waarvan niemand ooit had kunnen droomen. In de geestesrevolutie, die daar in de laatste tientallen jaren heeft plaats gehad en nog steeds bezig is zich te voltrekken, heeft het een niet onbelangrijke rol gespeeld. In bewogen discussies over nationaal-socialistische beginselen en nationaal-socialistische levenshouding is het O.L.B. pièce de résistance geweest. Levens- en geschiedbeschouwing, de plaats van de vrouw in de samenleving, democratie en leiders-principe, pacifisme, het Slavische oostfront, rassenleer en het Noordsche ras, ja ook het Jodenvraagstuk, zijn daarbij aan de orde geweest. Het is een merkwaardig feit, dat het O.L.B. schijnt te appeleeren aan zeer krachtige gevoelens, die zich bij het Duitsche volk ontwikkeld hebben in zijn strijd tegen vreemde invloeden en voor een eigen Germaansche cultuur. Niet zonder succes had de wetenschap zich reeds eerder verzet tegen de door een Christelijk-Latijnsche geschiedschrijving opgedrongen voorstellingen van de minderwaardigheid der oud-Germaansche beschaving en de zegeningen, door de Romeinen en de Roomsche kerk aan vermeende barbaren gebracht. Het aureool van den groot-kerstenaar Karel “den Grooten” verbleekte. Men zocht naar kernen van eigen oude beschaving, naar een eigen geestelijk erfdeel, zelfs naar een oorspronkelijk Noordsch monotheïsme.
Dit nu meenden velen, op het voetspoor van Herman Wirth, met zooveel ander voorvaderlijk erfgoed, in het Oera-Linda-Boek te vinden, en wel in de zoogenaamde Wralda-mystiek.”

.

This is how the text from M. de Jong 1939 continues (first Dutch, then translation):

. "Want Herman Wirth, dezelfde die in Friesland vergeefs het O.L.B. als Friezenbijbel had trachten te lanceeren, was, nu met meer succes, de apostel van dit Germaansche evangelie.
. Door een (gekortwiekte) vertaling had hij het voor het Duitsche volk toegankelijk gemaakt. Het sloeg in. Onderwijzers namen het mee naar school om er de jeugd uit voor te lezen, zoo goed als Wirth het op den katheder den studenten deed [voetnoot: Hübner, bl.34]. Een Oera-Linda-cultus dreigde, met Wirth als profeet.
. Maar ook een crisis in de Duitsche wetenschap. [...]
. In koortsachtige opwinding werd alles in het werk gesteld om Wirth of het O.L.B., dat kwam vrijwel op het zelfde neer, tegen de vlakte te slaan. [...]
. Er is tenslotte op den 4den Mei 1934 een groote demonstratie van Duitsche geleerden noodig geweest, om Wirth voorlopig het zwijgen op te leggen. Een demonstratie was het, meer dan een wetenschappelijk debat, [...]"

.

. "Because Herman Wirth, who had tried to introduce the OLB in Friesland as Frisian-bible, had more succes now, being the apostle of this Germanic gospel.
. With an abridged translation he had made it accessible for the German people. It was a smash hit. Teachers took it to school and read it to the youth, like Wirth did at university for students. An Oera-Linda-cult was dawning, with Wirth as its prophet.
. But also a crisis in German science. [...]
. Feverishly any attempt was made to knock down either Wirth or the OLB. [...]
. Finally on 4 May 1934, a great demonstration was needed to silence Wirth. A demonstration it was, more than a scientific debate, [...]"

[Abramelin]

You are describing the situation just before WWII.

But I posted a newspaper article of a couple of years after WWII that doesn't mention anything you brought up.

Not many, if any, have these sentiments nowadays towards the OLB as you posted in your last 2 posts.

An interesting text is this one:


Investigations into the Oera Linda Book
by Mark Puryear

Most likely it is either the product of Hiddo
oera Linda, who would thus have covered his tracks in the letter to his son Okke (pg. 1)
by explaining how the original manuscript was damaged in a flood so he had to
"transcribe it on foreign paper"; or it is the product of Liko oviro Linda, who obviously
had some animosity towards the Christian church and sought to keep the work out of
their hands. It is possible that this person may have been some sort of pagan revivalist.

+++

EDIT:

Apparently the text is no longer online. I once downloaded the pdf from here (check the links in this post):

http://www.unexplain...45#entry3634701

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 December 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[Abramelin]

Puryear's text is here: http://www.norroena....ticles_rep.html

(Scroll down to "Digital Print Collection")

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 December 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[TheHangedMan]

Hah Abramelin!
Did you read what that 'society' is about?

http://www.norroena.org/about_org.html